Horse Racing questions and answers

JBEX · 05-08-25, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by JBEX

you might be right about changing the name of the races but part of me still kind of likes the idea

I realize you could vary the timing and it doesn't have to be exactly 4 weeks in between them all .. I think an extra week so it'd be 3 is not enough for the preakness but it could possibly be 4/5 instead of 4/4 (ex:4 wks to preak and 5 to bel) ..that recognizes the added physical challenges of going the belmont distance ..if they would start saratoga a week later (I like that idea) it would give them even more flexibility..just some suggestions and understand there are a lot of considerations
that go into making such major changes as these

and just thought of something else..the new belmont will probably be open next year and it's supposed to be an amazing upgrade..why not run an extra week there ..they have extended the saratoga meet a few weeks anyway over the years

as far as making it 5 weeks (vs 4) to the belmont stakes (besides the test of going 1.5 miles) makes sense to give horses who ran in the first 2 legs a little longer break and there will probably more of those with this spacing ..understand again this could have ripple effects on upcoming stakes but that's as far as I'll take it..some off-the-top of my head ideas

JBEX · 05-08-25, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by str

I would hope people can see the difference and not try to compare today to 50 or 100 years ago. Horses had to stop for gas and people to eat in the back of a trailer way back when. Now they fly all over the place.

Racing can reimagine the Triple Crown spread over 3-5 months therefore giving every venue a chance to reestablish dates for other key races. I think people could understand the difference, just like a 1000 yard rusher in football or scoring 40 + points in the NBA before the 3 point line. Or the home run total with less games.
I mean, what a novel idea. Actually working together for a unified single goal which would be the excitement and enthusiasm of the fan base and grow the game.
Racing needs to get out of the house some and realize it isn't 1972 anymore.
This is something IMO they should have addressed years ago.

Records will fall and it might become easier to win a triple crown , but with technology, most everything does fall and is easier. Baseball, Football, Basketball, Hockey, Golf, etc. all have records falling because of a multitude of things which can all pretty much be lumped into progress.

It makes me ill to watch this slow moving car wreck that is taking place.

you might be right about changing the name of the races but part of me still kind of likes the idea

I realize you could vary the timing and it doesn't have to be exactly 4 weeks in between them all .. I think an extra week so it'd be 3 is not enough for the preakness but it could possibly be 4/5 instead of 4/4 (ex:4 wks to preak and 5 to bel) ..that recognizes the added physical challenges of going the belmont distance ..if they would start saratoga a week later (I like that idea) it would give them even more flexibility..just some suggestions and understand there are a lot of considerations
that go into making such major changes as these

str · 05-08-25, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by JBEX

by army mule .. thursday

aqu 8 @ 4:48
#9 army proud (7-2)

like this one

.

Agreed.

Looks solid JBEX.

str · 05-08-25, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by JBEX

also mentioned once before that if they do this I feel they have to do away with calling them triple crown races. it's new spacing and that should be distinguished by calling them something else

I would hope people can see the difference and not try to compare today to 50 or 100 years ago. Horses had to stop for gas and people to eat in the back of a trailer way back when. Now they fly all over the place.

Racing can reimagine the Triple Crown spread over 3-5 months therefore giving every venue a chance to reestablish dates for other key races. I think people could understand the difference, just like a 1000 yard rusher in football or scoring 40 + points in the NBA before the 3 point line. Or the home run total with less games.
I mean, what a novel idea. Actually working together for a unified single goal which would be the excitement and enthusiasm of the fan base and grow the game.
Racing needs to get out of the house some and realize it isn't 1972 anymore.
This is something IMO they should have addressed years ago.

Records will fall and it might become easier to win a triple crown , but with technology, most everything does fall and is easier. Baseball, Football, Basketball, Hockey, Golf, etc. all have records falling because of a multitude of things which can all pretty much be lumped into progress.

It makes me ill to watch this slow moving car wreck that is taking place.

JBEX · 05-07-25, 04:29 PM

by army mule .. thursday

aqu 8 @ 4:48
#9 army proud (7-2)

like this one

.

JBEX · 05-07-25, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by JBEX

agree with a different spacing for the triple crown races..4 weeks apart would leave an option after the preakness to possibly choose between the haskell at monmouth or go on to the belmont stakes..the belmont on to the jim dandy would be a little tight , and without a lot of extra thought, that might be the the least favorable situation of that spacing in my opinion ..a lot of horses pointing for the travers want a run over the strip in the JD and probably wouldn't get it if they ran in the belmont..I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff though as the travers with it's tradition and prestige will always attract the best horses ..just some off the top thoughts of paths without making a deep dive

also mentioned once before that if they do this I feel they have to do away with calling them triple crown races..it's new spacing and that should be distinguished by calling them something else

JBEX · 05-07-25, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by str

With the Derby winner now skipping the Preakness, what exactly does that say?

It can be as little as, the horse has given the trainer indications that he won't be at his best for either the Preakness, or, if he runs in it, the Belmont. Or, he won't make the Breeders Cup Classic maybe?
It could be those or, it could be that the full body of work for the horse while laying it out for the year in a perfect scenario, does not logically work over the next six months if you run in two weeks and then back in 3 weeks for the Belmont.

What I know without a doubt is that Bill Mott understands all this and has looked at every angle of this before making a judgement.

So while we do not know the exact reasoning, it is safe to say that unless the Triple Crown reimagines the three races and the spacing of each one, it will become less significant every year moving forward.

For instance, the NFL has expanded games in season but remember when there were 6 preseason games? They adjusted.

MLB has added playoff games galore as compared to back in the day. They adjusted.

The NBA won't go for less games and nor will the NFL or MLB, because it is a revenue source for owners. But we all should know that a MLB game in April, May or June other than opening day is just a nuisance that players have to deal with. The NBA just has games these days where players simply sit.

The difference is (and when it comes to Horse Racing there always is a difference and typically not for the better), this is not a revenue sharing game. It is every man for themselves. So unless, IMO of course, the triple crown owners come together ( don't hold your breath), the triple crown will become a little less relevant every year. We are watching it unfold in real time .

Let me say this for probably the one thousandth time. Maryland racing is on life support and they might as well pull the plug without the Preakness meaning anything. Without proper spacing which in todays game would be about every 5 weeks, the Preakness will just fade away and probably become G-2 status in ten years or less. That fits right into tearing down the old Pimlico and building a new one so nobody can be there. Yes, I'm rolling my eyes.

A slow moving train wreck unfolding that seems to be gaining speed every year. And as I type this, I was going to say, what a shame. But no, it's not a shame. What it was was no vision, no leadership and a false sense of thinking that nobody would notice.
You reap what you sow. Now please Md. racing! Make me eat these words. I'm begging you.

agree with a different spacing for the triple crown races..4 weeks apart would leave an option after the preakness to possibly choose between the haskell at monmouth or go on to the belmont stakes..the belmont on to the jim dandy would be a little tight , and without a lot of extra thought, that might be the the least favorable situation of that spacing in my opinion ..a lot of horses pointing for the travers want a run over the strip in the JD and probably wouldn't get it if they ran in the belmont..I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff though as the travers with it's tradition and prestige will always attract the best horses ..just some off the top thoughts of paths without making a deep dive

JBEX · 05-07-25, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by str

A couple of things about Derby Day and Md. racing.

Well, one of my favorite trainers, you know, the chosen one, was at it again in the Derby with the 1 horse. Breaks and goes to the lead AND THE 8 PATH right away. I certainly understand horses breaking to the outside but the riders hands and arms say that was intentional, IMO of course. And because I knew in my mind, that Bob wanted to shine in his first year back at any expense, this horse would be given every opportunity to run it's best. And... yes, that is what you strive for as a trainer, but not at the expense of multiple horses to your immediate outside. I mean, it was an important day for the 2,3,4,5,6,7, horse as well. But... as the Beatles and George Harrison pointed out decades ago, "All through the day, I me mine, I me mine, I me mine. All through the night, I me mine, I me mine, I me mine".

I have to give major props to the gate crew. They load a race faster than any track I have seen. That was awesome!! Take note racing.

The track superintendent did a fabulous job maintaining the track ! Unsung hero in my book.

The betting syndicates at work ? Well, pass me a barf bag will someone. I have not seen how the money came in for all the races including the Derby but... the winner with zero minutes to post time, roughly 20 seconds before the race started. He was 9-1. He finishes and he is 7-1 change. Now don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying anything except this. These mega money syndicates are using algorithms to be able to bet amounts on the entire field so no matter who wins, they break roughly even. Then, they receive ( not you and me), but THEY RECIEVE a rebate for their handle. Easy game isn't it ? Don't expect that to change as long as tracks allow this to occur. If they were forced to play the same game as everyone else, this would at least slow way down if not stop. But that won't happen as long as track ownership is part of the rebate team. I call it FGS. Fans getting screwed.

So its off to the last Preakness to ever be run at the original Pimlico. Do expect all the PGS money to show up again as ownership I have been told is part of that syndicate.

Then, they will build a new Pimlico, but leave the existing track in place to save roughly 350 million. Key the two old guys in the commercial clanging beers saying... BRILLIANT !

So no 6 1/2, 7/8ths, or a flat mile races on dirt. Just 5 or 6 furlongs or a mile and a 1/16 or longer. I mean, who doesn't want to do that? Oh, and barely any stalls as the horses will ship for the races and train on a farm many miles away. I swear, I don't want to be critical. I really don't. I love Maryland racing. I spent a many of year there in my life. But with decisions being made by non horse related professionals, who I have plenty of respect for, this is kind of like me, going in to run the Washington Commanders. I love the NFL. A born and raised sports fan from that area. But as the old saying goes, " Know your role and shut your mouth", doesn't someone with the authority look in the mirror and see a person that is I am sure, was and is really good at what they do THAT THEY ARE A PROFESSIONAL IN. There seems to be no common sense at the helm. There does seem to be plenty of egos though. Maybe not. But that is what it looks like.

The horsemen collectively are in mourning at the Maryland tracks. They know what the future holds. It was so sad as every person that have worked for decades at the track will now be facing a choice of, live out of a suitcase, uproot your entire family and move, or retire because Md. racing will no longer be anything close to what it was. A boutique meet at best. And most likely a fairly boring one as I have yet to see a real reason why it will be attracting support other than turf racing. Bye Bye, Maryland breeding industry. I mean, what will be the incentive going forward to be a Md. bred?
Maryland racing had a window in the 80's to shine brightly IMO. But the fates had other ideas. So here we are and so many peoples lives will be affected by it.
Ownership will sell Laurel for development so I am told. It is being talked about as a place where housing will be built. All I can hope for is that they remember to put those new houses on stilts like the Outer Banks because half of Laurel Park at least, is in a flood plain.

What did Vince Lombardi on the Green Bay sideline say in that old clip. "What the Hell is going on here!"

I have always found those distances to be the most interesting to handicap ..the cutbacks from 2 turns for 6.5 or 7 and then just the ones which need a little extra ground but are not 2 turn horses ..a track without those distances,for sure, is a real turnoff to me

besides that,as you said, really a shame for all the horsemen that have made a living at it and only know that way of life for a long while .. some would go to colonial,delaware and maybe parx I guess but probably not the easiest thing to do ..the breeding industry also suffers as you mentioned .. be a lot less incentive to buy statebreds with a lot less races to run in

str · 05-07-25, 08:09 AM

With the Derby winner now skipping the Preakness, what exactly does that say?

It can be as little as, the horse has given the trainer indications that he won't be at his best for either the Preakness, or, if he runs in it, the Belmont. Or, he won't make the Breeders Cup Classic maybe?
It could be those or, it could be that the full body of work for the horse while laying it out for the year in a perfect scenario, does not logically work over the next six months if you run in two weeks and then back in 3 weeks for the Belmont.

What I know without a doubt is that Bill Mott understands all this and has looked at every angle of this before making a judgement.

So while we do not know the exact reasoning, it is safe to say that unless the Triple Crown reimagines the three races and the spacing of each one, it will become less significant every year moving forward.

For instance, the NFL has expanded games in season but remember when there were 6 preseason games? They adjusted.

MLB has added playoff games galore as compared to back in the day. They adjusted.

The NBA won't go for less games and nor will the NFL or MLB, because it is a revenue source for owners. But we all should know that a MLB game in April, May or June other than opening day is just a nuisance that players have to deal with. The NBA just has games these days where players simply sit.

The difference is (and when it comes to Horse Racing there always is a difference and typically not for the better), this is not a revenue sharing game. It is every man for themselves. So unless, IMO of course, the triple crown owners come together ( don't hold your breath), the triple crown will become a little less relevant every year. We are watching it unfold in real time .

Let me say this for probably the one thousandth time. Maryland racing is on life support and they might as well pull the plug without the Preakness meaning anything. Without proper spacing which in todays game would be about every 5 weeks, the Preakness will just fade away and probably become G-2 status in ten years or less. That fits right into tearing down the old Pimlico and building a new one so nobody can be there. Yes, I'm rolling my eyes.

A slow moving train wreck unfolding that seems to be gaining speed every year. And as I type this, I was going to say, what a shame. But no, it's not a shame. What it was was no vision, no leadership and a false sense of thinking that nobody would notice.
You reap what you sow. Now please Md. racing! Make me eat these words. I'm begging you.

str · 05-05-25, 09:05 AM

A couple of things about Derby Day and Md. racing.

Well, one of my favorite trainers, you know, the chosen one, was at it again in the Derby with the 1 horse. Breaks and goes to the lead AND THE 8 PATH right away. I certainly understand horses breaking to the outside but the riders hands and arms say that was intentional, IMO of course. And because I knew in my mind, that Bob wanted to shine in his first year back at any expense, this horse would be given every opportunity to run it's best. And... yes, that is what you strive for as a trainer, but not at the expense of multiple horses to your immediate outside. I mean, it was an important day for the 2,3,4,5,6,7, horse as well. But... as the Beatles and George Harrison pointed out decades ago, "All through the day, I me mine, I me mine, I me mine. All through the night, I me mine, I me mine, I me mine".

I have to give major props to the gate crew. They load a race faster than any track I have seen. That was awesome!! Take note racing.

The track superintendent did a fabulous job maintaining the track ! Unsung hero in my book.

The betting syndicates at work ? Well, pass me a barf bag will someone. I have not seen how the money came in for all the races including the Derby but... the winner with zero minutes to post time, roughly 20 seconds before the race started. He was 9-1. He finishes and he is 7-1 change. Now don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying anything except this. These mega money syndicates are using algorithms to be able to bet amounts on the entire field so no matter who wins, they break roughly even. Then, they receive ( not you and me), but THEY RECIEVE a rebate for their handle. Easy game isn't it ? Don't expect that to change as long as tracks allow this to occur. If they were forced to play the same game as everyone else, this would at least slow way down if not stop. But that won't happen as long as track ownership is part of the rebate team. I call it FGS. Fans getting screwed.

So its off to the last Preakness to ever be run at the original Pimlico. Do expect all the PGS money to show up again as ownership I have been told is part of that syndicate.

Then, they will build a new Pimlico, but leave the existing track in place to save roughly 350 million. Key the two old guys in the commercial clanging beers saying... BRILLIANT !

So no 6 1/2, 7/8ths, or a flat mile races on dirt. Just 5 or 6 furlongs or a mile and a 1/16 or longer. I mean, who doesn't want to do that? Oh, and barely any stalls as the horses will ship for the races and train on a farm many miles away. I swear, I don't want to be critical. I really don't. I love Maryland racing. I spent a many of year there in my life. But with decisions being made by non horse related professionals, who I have plenty of respect for, this is kind of like me, going in to run the Washington Commanders. I love the NFL. A born and raised sports fan from that area. But as the old saying goes, " Know your role and shut your mouth", doesn't someone with the authority look in the mirror and see a person that is I am sure, was and is really good at what they do THAT THEY ARE A PROFESSIONAL IN. There seems to be no common sense at the helm. There does seem to be plenty of egos though. Maybe not. But that is what it looks like.

The horsemen collectively are in mourning at the Maryland tracks. They know what the future holds. It was so sad as every person that have worked for decades at the track will now be facing a choice of, live out of a suitcase, uproot your entire family and move, or retire because Md. racing will no longer be anything close to what it was. A boutique meet at best. And most likely a fairly boring one as I have yet to see a real reason why it will be attracting support other than turf racing. Bye Bye, Maryland breeding industry. I mean, what will be the incentive going forward to be a Md. bred?
Maryland racing had a window in the 80's to shine brightly IMO. But the fates had other ideas. So here we are and so many peoples lives will be affected by it.
Ownership will sell Laurel for development so I am told. It is being talked about as a place where housing will be built. All I can hope for is that they remember to put those new houses on stilts like the Outer Banks because half of Laurel Park at least, is in a flood plain.

What did Vince Lombardi on the Green Bay sideline say in that old clip. "What the Hell is going on here!"

JBEX · 05-04-25, 11:21 AM

by army mule

santa anita R2 @ 4:32

#7 charlie foxtrot (9-2)

.

JBEX · 05-04-25, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by str

Oh great !!
I saw you said he was running but totally lost track of the race once I was at the track.
That’s is great. I want to see the replay. I assume he was very relaxed on the lead. If so, that as you know, was what he was lacking when he was young.
Another great call on your part, identifying him as a baby with real ability.
It’s always cool to watch a plan work out when a trainer sets it into place. Good stuff JBEX !

thanks str

yes shot right out to the lead and looked comfortable on top ..was curious what the old record was but couldn't find that but sure the track was super firm to run that time..world record wired them also but have a hunch you might have seen that ..both off to good starts and sure are aiming for the breeders cup ..glad you had a nice outing with your buddies and hitting the derby certainly added to that

fort marcy stakes is on you tube

str · 05-04-25, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Jellymancan

Good pick, STR. Hope you ended up on the plus side and I bet you enjoyed spending time with your friends more than anything. That's what matters more anyways.

I tried to combine all the quotes and kind words into this you guys. Don’t think it worked. I’ll figure it out eventually.
But.. thank you all. Really appreciate it. I wish I had posted the Derby pIc sooner but so much goes on when the 5 of us plus everyone else that sees or knows us comes by, the time gets away from us.
Matt and I, who always combine and split all bets, did leave on the plus side thanks to the Derby winner. What a tremendous job by the connections and of course, Bill Mott, who is as good as any trainer I’ve ever seen.
With people coming by to say hello and all the Lies , I mean stories, we all tell , we got shut out 2-3 times yesterday. It is just so much fun to see all those guys.
It is truly a gift to have such longtime friends and old racetrack acquaintances that come by and say hello.

Hope everyone enjoyed the day. On to the last Preakness to be run at the original Pimlico.
Man, time flies by.

str · 05-04-25, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by JBEX

if you didn't see deterministic wired the field and won by 4+ setting a track record 1:45.3 (fifths)

Oh great !!
I saw you said he was running but totally lost track of the race once I was at the track.
That’s is great. I want to see the replay. I assume he was very relaxed on the lead. If so, that as you know, was what he was lacking when he was young.
Another great call on your part, identifying him as a baby with real ability.
It’s always cool to watch a plan work out when a trainer sets it into place. Good stuff JBEX !

JBEX · 05-04-25, 08:29 AM

if you didn't see deterministic wired the field and won by 4+ setting a track record 1:45.3 (fifths)

Jellymancan · 05-04-25, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by str