OT: And the case for atheism gets stronger every day...

[BuddyBear]

I am not even going to bother reading this thread, but all I'll say is that religion is for the weak of mind and spirit.

To cling on to beliefs that are highly highly implausible is illogical and to convince oneself that anything in the Bible is true is just a non-starter for a conversastion.

Religion does absolutely nothing to answer any meaningful empirical questions. Science is where the answers are and how we can discover more about this world we live in.

[DrunkenLullaby]

I know I would pay good money to hear WE EAT FISH's thoughts about the Flying Spaghetti Monster - the only question is how much.

[moneyline]

This is usually what the intellect of non-believers deteriorates to when confronted with a debate about God. That's okay, though. You are just examples of His greatness that He would create you, have His Son die for you and still allow you the free will to mock Him (or choose not to choose Him, as Arnold denies he does)

We all serve a pretty amazing Creator!

[swede96]

How can He punish you for using your free will? Simple. He is not punishing you. He is giving you a choice. And with every choice comes consequences. I'm sorry if you'd like to believe that, no matter what choice you make, you'll be right. It doesn't work that way, Swede ... not on this earth and certainly not in the Bible ...

Typical. Over-simplify my beliefs to feed your own. I'd call sending people to eternal hell for questioning Him would be punishment. I'm not saying every choice I could make would be right, just that it seems foolish to think that one choice He may not like would outweigh all of the GOOD choices I have made. And again, I say: The fact that I don't fully believe in God is not a choice. You can't choose what you believe. Saying that I could make the choice to believe in Him is like saying your could choose not to. If that's the case, you don't really believe.

Your boyfriend is perfect for you. And if things don't work out, you will eventually find another man who is perfect for you. As so many before you have done.

You're just an ass. Seriously. You don't know me or my boyfriend. How can you sit there and make assumptions about us?

As for Footprints, God doesn't bring you down. The world was perfect before original sin. God gave us free will. We decided to use it to sin from the very beginning. It is man's sin that brings us down. God, through His Son Jesus, lifts us back up again if we accept Him into our heart.

Sooo...everytime something bad happens, it's man's fault...but when good things happen, we shouls thank God?

Oh, and you keep getting confused on one point over and over again. I do not have to do good things to earn heaven, but I do good things because I love God and know that is what He would want me to do. It is not an earning system, but a result of believing in Him.

Oh, I'm not confused...I just don't understand how you can say that. I won't ever be able to grasp how some of you people seem to think accepting him trumps any bad acts you partake in here on Earth. I do good things beacause it's the right thing to do. Period. I help people because I have faith in them. I don't need a book or the desire to please an imaginary father figure.

Only an egoist at the highest level believes they can earn salvation. Or earn anything on their own, for that matter. Remember, I told you all people will eventuallty let you down. That includes you letting yourself down because of your human weakness.

You can look at it that way if you want, but you are very very wrong. I'm not trying to earn salvation at all. I'm just trying to be a good person...and I'm succeeding.

God is above all that. He understands that. And if you accept Him, He has given you a way to achieve salvation despite yourself.

That actually made me laugh.

[swede96]

So please somebody from the christian faith correct me if I'm wrong here but can't I go through life being a complete asshole and even kill people will eating their flesh and sodomize their kids repeatedly while watching Springer, then right before I go down for the dirt nap repent and be forgiven for all the shit that I did while alive? That would qualify me for the elevator to heaven right?

Yes, sir...it would.

[swede96]

Wizard, you seem to want to believe you'd earn heaven. God's love is so great that He allows people like Arnold and Swede to do everything from ignoring Him to disparaging Him their entire lives, but if they decide to believe in Him before their deaths, He will give them the same place in heaven as someone who has accepted Him from the very beginning.

He is, indeed, a loving God ...

Are you comparing Arnopld and I to child rapists now? Hey, where do you think the priests that molest little boys are going to end up? If I were to "decide" to believe in him, I wouldn't really be believing. Oh, and I'm not disparaging him at all. My relationship with God (or lack of) is between Him and I. What I am disparaging is your view of him.

[swede96]

Look moneyline, I realize it is completely pointless to attempt to discuss this. I was raised in a deeply Catholic environment, taught for close to 20 years in the Catholic system (For the better pay, not the belief system) and have a very good friend who is a Catholic priest (Not the little-boy raping kind).

There is much to the system that I have grown to despise. But I certainly don't fault others around me who still deeply believe. I am truly sorry for your loss, and your belief system must have been a tremendous shoulder to lean on during your father's battle. I'm sure it has also made you a better person in terms of helping others, as you alluded to earlier in this thread.

But why the need to belittle and criticize others who don't share your beliefs? It's akin to "Look out for the boogeyman in the closet". If God lets them exercise free will without critical analysis, then who are you judge them? Just let it go.....

Moneyline has no idea where I'll end up when I leave this Earth. I'm glad that his father had something to bring him peace while battling that horrible disease. I watched my Aunt die of cancer...and she actually became much more religious as she got worse and worse. Of course, the nutjobs from her new church wouldn't get out of her room long enough for her FAMILY to see her...then they walked around her wake asking everyone if they had found Jesus (distasteful and classless if you ask me), but hey, it helped her find peace. Personally, if I got cancer right now, I would find my peace in the fact that I have done everything I can to be a good daughter, sister, girlfriend and friend to the people that love me and I am leaving the world a little better than it was before me. Who knows? Maybe I would feel God's presence and accept him. I don't know and I don't pretend to. I do know with ever fiber of my being that if there is a heaven and a hell, I will not be spending eternity in the latter.

[swede96]

Whats the downside?

Ending up a Christian sheep.

[swede96]

Richard Dawkins:

Your last, best hope, moneyline, is that this is exactly what your god is looking to do. Oh yes, in the land of the intellectually vapid, morally obtuse, and cognitively obsequious, your Christ is indeed King of Kings.

That was BRILLIANT! I've never read that, but I've always thought about the same thing. Isn't it better if I question and look within myself to see what I REALLY believe than if I go to church and believe because my parents told me to?

[BuddyBear]

This is usually what the intellect of non-believers deteriorates to when confronted with a debate about God. That's okay, though. You are just examples of His greatness that He would create you, have His Son die for you and still allow you the free will to mock Him (or choose not to choose Him, as Arnold denies he does)

We all serve a pretty amazing Creator!

Religious fanatics....they have the intelligence roughly equivalent to a tube of toothpaste

You are making an absolute fool of yourself in this thread ML. That's okay though. When the time comes, YOU will be vindicated from all this because the Creator will elevate you into a spiritual euphoria where you will spend eternity reaping his Greatness and as punishment for all the non-believers, He will relegate the rest of us to eternal damination where we will be subjecated to the torment of the devil for the rest of time.

Get real man....I guess the Creator forgot to give you something called critical thinking skills.

[Arnold]

I am not even going to bother reading this thread, but all I'll say is that religion is for the weak of mind and spirit.

This is true. Religion promotes weakness and makes you weak. They want you to be like that, so they could save you. Otherwise they'll have no clients and go out of business.

Religious fanatics....they have the intelligence roughly equivalent to a tube of toothpaste

Ah, I think it is more like intelligence of a broken toothpick.

[moneyline]

Yes, that's the way to go. If someone has faith in the Lord, they are intellectually inferior. I'd pit my life experience of being to over 70 countries, 3 degrees (from a BA to a Masters to a JD, one of the semesters at Harvard) and work experience (from being an elementary school teacher to an attorney for the indigent) against anyone on this forum.

Having said that, being smart and being saved are two totally different things. If being as smart as the rest of you meant denying my Creator, I guess I'll take your labeling me with a smile ...

[BuddyBear]

Yes, that's the way to go. If someone has faith in the Lord, they are intellectually inferior. I'd pit my life experience of being to over 70 countries, 3 degrees (from a BA to a Masters to a JD, one of the semesters at Harvard) and work experience (from being an elementary school teacher to an attorney for the indigent) against anyone on this forum.

Having said that, being smart and being saved are two totally different things. If being as smart as the rest of you meant denying my Creator, I guess I'll take your labeling me with a smile ...

They aren't intellectually inferior just stubborn to the fact that empirical considerations support nothing in the Bible. There is nothing in the Bible that can be supported by actual empirical evidence...it's all a major leap of faith b/c the scientific evidence contradicts it. If that is the basis for believing then no thanks. I prefer science and reason and logic and evidence any day over blind faith like you and Pat Robertson and George Bush.

Sorry to break it to you...but when you die you probably aren't going anywhere

[Arnold]

Yes, that's the way to go. If someone has faith in the Lord, they are intellectually inferior....

That's right, and if someone doesn't have faith in the Lord, they are going to hell (even if they're the most wonderful people in the world).

I'd pit my life experience of being to over 70 countries, 3 degrees (from a BA to a Masters to a JD, one of the semesters at Harvard) and work experience (from being an elementary school teacher to an attorney for the indigent) against anyone on this forum.

Put your imaginary world against the real world and all foolishness becomes evident.

Having said that, being smart and being saved are two totally different things. If being as smart as the rest of you meant denying my Creator, I guess I'll take your labeling me with a smile

Smart people don't believe in something blindly. It's all a matter of taste and culture when it comes to blind faith, not smartness.

[moneyline]

Smart people don't believe in something blindly.

Really?

[Arnold]

Really.

[moneyline]

And I always thought smart people didn't make broad overgeneralizations. Oh, well, I guess there is another alternative. Perhaps the person making one isn't as smart as he'd like to believe.

Nah, that couldn't be it.

[Arnold]

And I always thought smart people didn't make broad overgeneralizations. Oh, well, I guess there is another alternative. Perhaps the person making one isn't as smart as he'd like to believe.

Nah, that couldn't be it.

It is not a "broad overgeneralization", it is a fact that is based on experiences of many, many conversations with Christians. Besides, since you're the Christian right here and right now, it was directed more to you than anyone else. Take your time to think about it and adjust accordingly.

[donjuan]

Yes, that's the way to go. If someone has faith in the Lord, they are intellectually inferior. I'd pit my life experience of being to over 70 countries, 3 degrees (from a BA to a Masters to a JD, one of the semesters at Harvard) and work experience (from being an elementary school teacher to an attorney for the indigent) against anyone on this forum.

[moneyline]

https://www.backpackernation.com

Juan, don't ridicule life experience that surpasses your own. I am sure you've experienced everything you've wanted as well. And that's great!

[donjuan]

Juan, don't ridicule life experience that surpasses your own. I am sure you've experienced everything you've wanted as well. And that's great!

Since you really don't have a clue about my life experience, this is highly amusing.

[moneyline]

You've been to more than 70 countries on your own terms? Great. Have more than three degrees? Wonderful. Have spent the lion's share of your life working with children and the indigent? Good for you, sir.

(but the simple fact remains, without knowing anything about you, I've experienced more in 38 years than almost anyone does in a lifetime -- and those who know me agree ... hard not to, really)

[The_Kid]

Typical. Over-simplify my beliefs to feed your own. I'd call sending people to eternal hell for questioning Him would be punishment. I'm not saying every choice I could make would be right, just that it seems foolish to think that one choice He may not like would outweigh all of the GOOD choices I have made. And again, I say: The fact that I don't fully believe in God is not a choice. You can't choose what you believe. Saying that I could make the choice to believe in Him is like saying your could choose not to. If that's the case, you don't really believe.

You can't choose what you believe?

[moneyline]

Yeah, I know. Stunning the way Arnold and Swede "believe" they can't choose what they believe. If that's what gets them through the day, so be it ...

[Panic]

The reason they cant choose is because it's alot easier to sit on the fence and not pick a side. If they lean one way, it may come back to bite 'em in the ass. Better to be "safe" than "sorry". Better to ridicule those with courage than to have any of your own, so they believe. They want to think, by going about life in a positive way but not believeing in God, they will still enter eternal bliss(if its there). They are trying to do what we call in the gambling world, known as hedging bets.

[Arnold]

You can't choose what you believe?

No, you can't.

[donjuan]

You've been to more than 70 countries on your own terms? Great. Have more than three degrees? Wonderful. Have spent the lion's share of your life working with children and the indigent? Good for you, sir.

That's great and all but if I wasted a good deal of my time preoccupied with something that has no physical evidence and has had many of its beliefs shown to be patently absurd, I wouldn't consider that a very good life.

FWIW, I've been to 22 countries and have plans to travel to many more. Of course, I don't concern myself with quantity in some kind of dick waving contest for countries visited. When I go somewhere I actually try to immerse myself in the culture rather than ooohhhing and aaaahing at tourist attractions or trying to convert people. Oh, and I'm in the process of opening a business in a foreign country and have represented a professional athlete in contract negotiations. And I make advantage bets to pay the bills. I'm quite happy with my life so far.

[Arnold]

Yeah, I know. Stunning the way Arnold and Swede "believe" they can't choose what they believe. If that's what gets them through the day, so be it ...

I think the words "I don't know" are virgin to your ears, same as agnosticism.

[BuddyBear]

I am 27 and have done nothing with my life for the record.....

[The_Kid]

No, you can't.

You can't choose what to believe but you choose not to believe that there is a higher being/power out there. Isn't that choosing what you believe?

[donjuan]

I am 27 and have done nothing with my life for the record.....

Who cares? Do what makes you happy.

[DrunkenLullaby]

Might as well piss some more gasoline onto the fire here :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080424/ap_on_re_us/religious_license_plate_4

Florida lawmakers debate offering a Christian license plate

By JESSICA GRESKO, Associated Press Writer Thu Apr 24, 4:28 PM ET

MIAMI - Florida drivers can order more than 100 specialty license plates celebrating everything from manatees to the Miami Heat, but one now under consideration would be the first in the nation to explicitly promote a specific religion.

The Florida Legislature is considering a specialty plate with a design that includes a Christian cross, a stained-glass window and the words "I Believe."

Rep. Edward Bullard, the plate's sponsor, said people who "believe in their college or university" or "believe in their football team" already have license plates they can buy. The new design is a chance for others to put a tag on their cars with "something they believe in," he said.

If the plate is approved, Florida would become the first state to have a license plate featuring a religious symbol that's not part of a college logo. Approval would almost certainly face a court challenge.

The problem with the state manufacturing the plate is that it "sends a message that Florida is essentially a Christian state" and, second, gives the "appearance that the state is endorsing a particular religious preference," said Howard Simon, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida.

The "I Believe" license plate still has a way to go before it reaches the roads. The proposal is part of a package of license plates being debated in the Senate and ready for a floor vote. In the House, the bill that would authorize the plate has passed one committee 8-2. The Legislature's annual session ends May 2.

Some lawmakers say the state should be careful. Rep. Kelly Skidmore said she is a Roman Catholic and goes to Mass on Sundays, but she believes the "I Believe" plate is inappropriate for the government to produce.

"It's not a road I want to go down. I don't want to see the Star of David next. I don't want to see a Torah next. None of that stuff is appropriate to me," said Skidmore, a Democrat who voted against the plate in committee. "I just believe that."

Florida's specialty license plates require the payment of additional fees, some of which go to causes the plates endorse.

One plate approved in 2004, displaying the motto "Family Values," funds Sheridan House, which provides family programs but also sees its purpose as "sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Bible" and "information about the Christian faith."

The bill creating the "I Believe" plate would also create an "In God We Trust" plate to benefit the children of soldiers and law enforcement officers whose parents have died. It also could face opposition as a violation of the separation of church and state.

An Indiana plate with the same "In God We Trust" phrase has been challenged by the ACLU, but the courts so far have deemed it legal, arguing that it is comparable with other specialty plates.

This isn't the first time a Florida license plate design has created religious controversy. In 1999, lawmakers approved a bright yellow "Choose Life" license plate with a picture of a boy and girl. It raises money for agencies that encourage women to not have abortions.

That generated a court battle, with abortion rights groups saying the plate had religious overtones. But it was ruled legal, and about a dozen states now have similar plates.

A "Trust God" license plate was proposed in Florida in 2003. It would have given money to Christian radio stations and charities, but was never produced.

Earlier this year, a legislative committee was shown an image of a "Trinity" plate that showed a Christlike figure with his arms outstretched. It and two other plates were voted down.

The group asking for the "I Believe" plate, the Orlando-based nonprofit Faith in Teaching Inc., supports faith-based schools activities. The plate would cost drivers an extra $25 annual fee.

Approving the plate could open the state to legal challenges, according to Josie Brown, who teaches constitutional law at the University of South Carolina. And it's not certain who would win.

"It would be an interesting close call," Brown said.

Simon, of the ACLU, said approval of the plate could prompt many other groups to seek their own designs, and they could claim discrimination if their plans were rejected. That could even allow the Ku Klux Klan to get a plate, Simon said.

Bullard, the plate's sponsor, isn't sure all groups should be able to express their preference. If atheists came up with an "I Don't Believe" plate, for example, he would probably oppose it.

[Arnold]

You can't choose what to believe but you choose not to believe that there is a higher being/power out there. Isn't that choosing what you believe?

I did not choose not to believe. You are born with no beliefs to start with. Is it really that hard to understand?

[The_Kid]

I did not choose not to believe. You are born with no beliefs to start with. Is it really that hard to understand?

I wasn't arguing if you born with no beliefs. You have a choice now and I'm assuming you don't believe. No, it isn't hard to understand but you aren't making any sense. You can't choose what you can believe? That makes no sense.

[Arnold]

I wasn't arguing if you born with no beliefs. You have a choice now and I'm assuming you don't believe. No, it isn't hard to understand but you aren't making any sense. You can't choose what you can believe? That makes no sense.

So what do you do when you don't know the answer to a particular question? How do you choose which answer is correct?