OT: And the case for atheism gets stronger every day...

[The_Kid]

Isn't it a yes or no question?

[moneyline]

Nah, for them to be able to make a choice they have to have choices ... oh, wait, they do ...

(I wonder if sitting on the fence is hurting their buttocks)

[Ganchrow]

Nah, for them to be able to make a choice they have to have choices ... oh, wait, they do ...

Here's a question for both "believers" and "non-believers" alike ... do you choose to believe that at some point during the last 24 hours I peeled and ate 2 or more bananas? Yes or no?

And here's a little hint: In the past 15 minutes, I actually peeled over 250 bananas, and have so far eaten 1½ of them.

Serious question.

[swede96]

You can't choose what you believe?

No, true belief is something that comes from deep inside you. You can say you believe in something all you want, but if it's not in your heart, you're just going through the motions. You can't choose who you love and you can't choose what you believe.

[swede96]

The reason they cant choose is because it's alot easier to sit on the fence and not pick a side. If they lean one way, it may come back to bite 'em in the ass. Better to be "safe" than "sorry". Better to ridicule those with courage than to have any of your own, so they believe. They want to think, by going about life in a positive way but not believeing in God, they will still enter eternal bliss(if its there). They are trying to do what we call in the gambling world, known as hedging bets.

Once again, typical. Call me a coward and take shots because I don't believe the same thing as you. It's not about sitting on the fence for me. It's about respecting God enough to not sit here and say I believe when I have doubts in my heart. I don't fully believe He exists. It would be disrespectful for Him and His followers for me to sit here and just decide to believe. I can say I believe all day, but if He is everything you say He is, He can see what's in my heart. If God is real, I'd rather not lie to Him, thanks. I will say this: a few years ago I would have sat here and said that there's no way God exists. My beliefs and faith are growing and developing. I'm not going to force it. I am confident that there is some force out there looking out for me and that I'll know in my heart what it is at some point. Until then, I'll continue to question what I believe and learn more about myself. That way, if the day comes when I feel there IS a God and He is with me, I will be able to accept him knowing that I have done so of my own free will on my own terms, not because I was scared of hell or sick of hearing people like you.

[swede96]

You can't choose what to believe but you choose not to believe that there is a higher being/power out there. Isn't that choosing what you believe?

I didn't choose not to believe, I simply don't. There's a difference.

[swede96]

So what do you do when you don't know the answer to a particular question? How do you choose which answer is correct?

Take a guess.

[swede96]

Nah, for them to be able to make a choice they have to have choices ... oh, wait, they do ...

(I wonder if sitting on the fence is hurting their buttocks)

I'm not suprised that you are too narrow minded to understand how the heart and soul work....for you have niether.

[zentiense]

You've been to more than 70 countries on your own terms? Great. Have more than three degrees? Wonderful. Have spent the lion's share of your life working with children and the indigent? Good for you, sir.

(but the simple fact remains, without knowing anything about you, I've experienced more in 38 years than almost anyone does in a lifetime -- and those who know me agree ... hard not to, really)

What are you talking about? "Been to 70 countries" huh? Missionary work or "saving the Africans" or "vacationing in the Bahamas" doesn't exactly qualify oneself as being "worldly," especially given that chances are these visits were short lived and involved relatively little interaction with locals who also spoke a language other than your own (probably ranging from French to Telugu). Didn't you ever read about British imperialism during your time "earning three degrees"?

It's very easy to visit other countries with the best of intentions and participate in ideological colonialism...of which, if I'm not mistaken, a good chunk of so-called missionary work is simply a modern expression.

In any case, at the very least, how does visiting seventy countries make you so much more "experienced" than other people around here? Also, one semester at Harvard, also, doesn't make you intellectually superior -- one example of a similar situation is the current President. He graduated from Yale, has probably visited more than seventy countries, has had a vastly privileged upbringing, and yet people still consider him an idiot -- and he's the President!

I'm not saying that you're not smart or worldly or haven't led a very interesting and ambitious life -- I'm just saying your evidence kind of sucks. You're banking on being the most traveled and holding the most degrees -- I wouldn't want to turn this into a sheer life-achievement comparison.

The fact is, the debate here isn't about life-achievement but rather is about something intangible that non of us can effectively discuss without being on the same terms -- that's why all religious "debates" fail -- the terms are never appropriately set and people run wild and take things personally.

Proselytizing shouldn't be taken personally nor should the negative response to proselytizing. People are people -- they're allowed to have very different opinions -- based on life experiences -- and are allowed to think differently. Now let's all go out and have a beer =/

[HedgeHog]

Ganch's banana talk has made me hungry--going to lunch.
Perhaps I should say Grace first:

God is great, God is good. Let us thank him for our food. Amen.

[Arnold]

Isn't it a yes or no question?

Any question is unknown until it becomes known. Do I have a dollar in my hand right now? Yes or no? You can't answer this question, because you don't know.

Take a guess.

If only we were on the "Price is Right" game show.

[moneyline]

The dollar in the hand is something there is no evidence of to make a decision, one way or the other. Regarding God's existence, there is evidence all around you -- that you choose to ignore it is, well, yet another choice you make ...

The Bible is still more evidence -- perhaps evidence you choose to debunk for whatever the reason, but again -- gasp -- you are making a choice to not accept its Word.

Weak effort, Arnold. But perhaps it was good enough for the Price is Right after all ...

[moneyline]

What are you talking about? "Been to 70 countries" huh? Missionary work or "saving the Africans" or "vacationing in the Bahamas" doesn't exactly qualify oneself as being "worldly," especially given that chances are these visits were short lived and involved relatively little interaction with locals who also spoke a language other than your own (probably ranging from French to Telugu). Didn't you ever read about British imperialism during your time "earning three degrees"?

=/

Funny, though. It wasn't missionary work that brought me to 70 countries, nor were most of them 1-2 week holidays. And certainly no tours, save one through Israel where I wanted more detail about where Jesus was ...

Every day, my traveling was with the people, especially in Africa. It was the type of travel most people in this country are either too scared or too pampered to enjoy ...

https://www.backpackernation.com

(a way of life)

[zentiense]

Funny, though. It wasn't missionary work that brought me to 70 countries, nor were most of them 1-2 week holidays. And certainly no tours, save one through Israel where I wanted more detail about where Jesus was ...

Every day, my traveling was with the people, especially in Africa. It was the type of travel most people in this country are either too scared or too pampered to enjoy ...

https://www.backpackernation.com

(a way of life)

Is that your personal website? Either way, still pretty cool to backpack around so much. Still doesn't lend you legitimacy to bash someone because they haven't traveled as much... nor does it justify any existence of g/God(s). Travel and "world experience" is pretty neat, and does wonders for perspective -- but really, what experience besides "the human experience" did you take out of it? How many languages do you speak better than a few currency words? How many religions did you practice or meals did you partake? Have you been to Tibet? Just going to Tibet, for instance, supports the Chinese regime -- similarly, traveling to other controversial locations can be inadvertently offensive or oppressive. But, ultimately, you'd be hard-pressed to find me arguing against travel in general -- even to places like Tibet or Kashmir -- one just has to be wary of the political issues and open to alternative cultural approaches.

[moneyline]

Boycotted Tibet for quite some time, but I felt like I wanted to see it, even in its dilapidated state. The Tibetans I met who were willing to talk with me were worth the price of admission, although the Potala Palace was one of the saddest places I ever walked through.

Yep, that's my website. And I haven't slammed anyone for not traveling as I have. It was in repsonse to people like Arnold who not only questioned my intelligence, but also my world experience. Just offering some evidence to the contrary.

Languages -- I can speak enough of about 10 of them to get along in the native country. Of course, I spoke more when I was there. Countless meals with locals, cricket matches on the streets of Bangladesh with the kids, lived with a Afrikaans lady in Cape Town, worked at Mother Theresa's Home for the Dying in Calcutta and, of course, took local transport everywhere I went. It was awesome.

As for religions, I did look much more in depth at Buddhism and Hinduism to name a few. In almost every one, I saw value, but nothing to ultimately change me from my belief in God, Jesus and the Bible. Funny, though. I know more about Buddhism than a lot of American Buddhists -- they read about it in a book, I lived it in Sri Lanka, Nepal and the like ...

I think everyone should travel. I hope everyone does.

[zentiense]

Boycotted Tibet for quite some time, but I felt like I wanted to see it, even in its dilapidated state. The Tibetans I met who were willing to talk with me were worth the price of admission, although the Potala Palace was one of the saddest places I ever walked through.

Yep, that's my website. And I haven't slammed anyone for not traveling as I have. It was in repsonse to people like Arnold who not only questioned my intelligence, but also my world experience. Just offering some evidence to the contrary.

Languages -- I can speak enough of about 10 of them to get along in the native country. Of course, I spoke more when I was there. Countless meals with locals, cricket matches on the streets of Bangladesh with the kids, lived with a Afrikaans lady in Cape Town, worked at Mother Theresa's Home for the Dying in Calcutta and, of course, took local transport everywhere I went. It was awesome.

As for religions, I did look much more in depth at Buddhism and Hinduism to name a few. In almost every one, I saw value, but nothing to ultimately change me from my belief in God, Jesus and the Bible. Funny, though. I know more about Buddhism than a lot of American Buddhists -- they read about it in a book, I lived it in Sri Lanka, Nepal and the like ...

I think everyone should travel. I hope everyone does.

Nice site -- good luck with your future travels. Buddhism is a funny topic... =)

[Arnold]

The dollar in the hand is something there is no evidence of to make a decision, one way or the other.

Oh, so now we're starting to think. Finally someone switched his brain on.

Regarding God's existence, there is evidence all around you -- that you choose to ignore it is, well, yet another choice you make ...

There is no evidence for God. The evidence that you see, is there only in your own eyes. It is subjective evidence, and largely you see it, because you want to see it.

The Bible is still more evidence

There is no evidence in the Bible. But again, you want this evidence and you will see it. Same as arguing about Trinity. Some people just really want to see Trinity in the Bible, even though it's not there and never was.

-- perhaps evidence you choose to debunk for whatever the reason, but again -- gasp -- you are making a choice to not accept its Word.

I'm not accepting "evidence" for what it claims to be. That's right. I'm not accepting "evidence" against God too, if you still don't get it. You simply cannot prove or disprove God. It's beyond our human capability. The only thing one can do is either be a theist and believe in God, or be an atheist and believe that there is no God. Others (agnostics) will stay neutral on this matter (what any honest and reasonable human being should do).

[swede96]

The dollar in the hand is something there is no evidence of to make a decision, one way or the other. Regarding God's existence, there is evidence all around you -- that you choose to ignore it is, well, yet another choice you make ...

The Bible is still more evidence -- perhaps evidence you choose to debunk for whatever the reason, but again -- gasp -- you are making a choice to not accept its Word.

Weak effort, Arnold. But perhaps it was good enough for the Price is Right after all ...

Evidence? Nope. It's circumstantial at best. God didn't write the bible. A men that said God spoke to them did. BIG difference.

[Arnold]

Evidence? Nope. It's circumstantial at best. God didn't write the bible. A men that said God spoke to them did. BIG difference.

Even the man that said God spoke to him - didn't write the Bible (Moses). It was all written long past the events it describes. And then in the end of the 4th century compiled by some priests, who decided what's going into the "Bible" and what doesn't. I'll just skip any comments about how many times it was copied by hand and translated from one language to another.

[swede96]

Did anyone else hear about the vatican releasing a new list of sins? When I have time, I'll look for an article. Who the hell are they to make up new sins?

Even if I did believe in God with all my heart, I will never consider myself part of any Christian religion. Corrupt and slf-serving...all of them.

[Arnold]

Even if I did believe in God with all my heart, I will never consider myself part of any Christian religion. Corrupt and slf-serving...all of them.

This is the best a believer in God can do - not join any of the Christian denominations, and even better, not go to church. I find these Christians are much better people in general, with better brain functionality, too. Seems like denominations and churches is what really messes people up.

[durito]

Here's a question for both "believers" and "non-believers" alike ... do you choose to believe that at some point during the last 24 hours I peeled and ate 2 or more bananas? Yes or no?

And here's a little hint: In the past 15 minutes, I actually peeled over 250 bananas, and have so far eaten 1½ of them.

Serious question.

This is the best post in this thread.

I love bananas

[zentiense]

We can debate hermeneutics of scripture all day -- but we'll never be able to convince someone who has faith that their faith is invalid. It's so intangible and specific to an individual that nobody can "prove" otherwise -- unless, of course, some scientist discovers that there is a faith gene or part of the brain or something =)

I've argued long and hard with all kinds of religious people over the origin of scripture, divine revelation, and faith -- even if you discredit all sources of religion, if the individual still has faith that they can gain something from a specific practice or reading then there's nothing you can do.

[Arnold]

We can debate hermeneutics of scripture all day -- but we'll never be able to convince someone who has faith that their faith is invalid. It's so intangible and specific to an individual that nobody can "prove" otherwise -- unless, of course, some scientist discovers that there is a faith gene or part of the brain or something =)

I've argued long and hard with all kinds of religious people over the origin of scripture, divine revelation, and faith -- even if you discredit all sources of religion, if the individual still has faith that they can gain something from a specific practice or reading then there's nothing you can do.

I agree with you. The only way to convince a Christian is to try and make him think critically, which is a big NO-NO in their circles.

[buztah]

Would all you zealots please give my very best to Santa, God, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. Thanks.

[swede96]

We can debate hermeneutics of scripture all day -- but we'll never be able to convince someone who has faith that their faith is invalid. It's so intangible and specific to an individual that nobody can "prove" otherwise -- unless, of course, some scientist discovers that there is a faith gene or part of the brain or something =)

I've argued long and hard with all kinds of religious people over the origin of scripture, divine revelation, and faith -- even if you discredit all sources of religion, if the individual still has faith that they can gain something from a specific practice or reading then there's nothing you can do.

I'm not trying to tell anyone their faith is invalid, just show the reasons why it is not MY faith in the hopes that he will stop saying my faith is invalid, but that won't happen when talking to someone like moneyline. He's an arrogant prick and I bet God slams the door in his face and laughs at him for thinking that just believing will get him in when he was so nasty to people on earth.

[zentiense]

Would all you zealots please give my very best to Santa, God, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. Thanks.

Dude, don't forget the leprechauns! Tell them to send a pot of gold this way.

[swede96]

And can someone ask God where I can get Robyn a pet unicorn? Thanks.

[moneyline]

Mocking God -- yes, Swede, that does show you are getting closer to believing in Him.

(really, it does)

[Arnold]

Mocking God -- yes, Swede, that does show you are getting closer to believing in Him.

(really, it does)

So LaVey's satanists must be even closer

[moneyline]

Nah, Swede is probably neck and neck with them.

[durito]

I've backpacked all over central and south america. I don't see the connection to organized religion at all, in fact, such travels turned me off of the idea even more.

[thezbar]

Here's a question for both "believers" and "non-believers" alike ... do you choose to believe that at some point during the last 24 hours I peeled and ate 2 or more bananas? Yes or no?

And here's a little hint: In the past 15 minutes, I actually peeled over 250 bananas, and have so far eaten 1½ of them.

Serious question.

Serious answer. No!. I don't believe that you that you ate two or more bananas during that 24 hour period. However if I see a good number on a prop about this, I'm willing to wager on yes.

[Arnold]

Nah, Swede is probably neck and neck with them.

You're very ignorant and clueless.

[moneyline]

And you can't even make a choice when it comes to the most important thing in your existence.

(but you are really intelligent)