OT: And the case for atheism gets stronger every day...

[Dazzez]

Mark 16:16 -- HE WHO HAS BELIEVED and ... (has been baptized)

What about Mark 16:17-18?

And these signs will accompany those who believe: ... they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well. (NIV)

So let me get this straight, moneyline. Are you actually immune to all poisons or are you just awarded +4 on your saving throws? Does this only apply to poison you've imbibed or do you have additional resilience to topical and injected poisons?

Is your invulnerability to snakes limited to just their venom or has Jesus in His Mercy also bestowed upon you a complete imperviousness to python constriction as well? Obviously in Jesus' name you can survive a rattle snake bite (duh), but what I'm wondering is if snakes just won't bite you or if it just doesn't hurt when they do?

I gotta give it up for cure light wounds, that sounds like a useful spell to have. So how does that work for you, moneyline? What is that like 1d8+1 hit points each time you cast it? Once a day? Twice a day?

This Christian Magic sounds like some cool powers to have and is not foolish or ridiculous in the least. Maybe I should become a believer and get me some of that.

[moneyline]

I am immune to death because of Jesus -- not bodily death, of course, but as Jesus has granted me eternal life, a poisonous snake cannot take that away from me. Because the finite life you have here on earth is all you believe you possess, that same snake takes away everything from you ...

(doesn't have to, but your free will, your choice, your ignorance ...)

When you read the Bible as a whole, you look for confirmation -- that is what allows you to discern symbolism from a literal statement. Please quote any other place in the NT where drinking deadly poison without bodily harm is mentioned in the NT. You can't. It isn't. Welcome to symbolism alluding to eternal life, pal.

[Sportsgirl]

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[moneyline]

Bapitism is an adult activity done when one decides to dedicate their life to Jesus Christ. Which is -- drum roll please -- the way to heaven. Accepting the Lord into your heart.

Your response to DH was intellectually dishonest, saying you need to be baptized to be saved (and leaving out the other part of the quote you gave to him). I wrote out the other part of the quote -- partial quotes aren't very good, SG, when you are throwing chapter and verse around, as you are wont to do. Good there are others around to not let you get away with the partial quote. Keep you honest, even when you don't want to be.

Partial quotes when using chapter and verse ARE of great interest to me, btw, because they are a tool used by dishonest people. Do it again and I'll call you on it again. I hope people do the same when reading your newspaper articles!

[Dazzez]

When you read the Bible as a whole, you look for confirmation -- that is what allows you to discern symbolism from a literal statement. Please quote any other place in the NT where drinking deadly poison without bodily harm is mentioned in the NT. You can't. It isn't. Welcome to symbolism alluding to eternal life, pal.

So is it your contention that if a statement is made only once in the Bible it need not be taken literally?

That sounds to me like someone is constructing his own personal Jesus. Building God in his own image, maybe? Constructing a private Jesus for himself rather than taking the Word as God breathed and flawless, perhaps? Hmm?

Mark 8:38:

If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels.

Hell, why stop at snakes and immunity to poison? In moneyline's personal vision of Christianity maybe the Resurrection was just a metaphor? Maybe Jesus didn't even die on the Cross for our sins ... maybe he just stubbed his big toe?

Once you set off down that slippery slope, moneyline, there's only one place it can lead ... and it's going to be pretty hot down there. Or wait ... is that a metaphor?

[moneyline]

Any Biblicial scholar worth his or her salt can explain the concept of confirmation to you. As they can explain to you the dangers of cherry-picking quotes without taking the entire body of work into consideration.

Again, it'd be your usage of free will whether or not you want to agree with these individuals or not. If not, keep down that path you were alluding to -- I don't know if it is hot, but it sure will be empty, apart from God.

[Sportsgirl]

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[Dazzez]

Any Biblicial scholar worth his or her salt can explain the concept of confirmation to you. As they can explain to you the dangers of cherry-picking quotes without taking the entire body of work into consideration.

Oh I fully understand that rationalization. I also fully understand that I'm quoting chapter and verse while you're stating your own feelings, opinions, and guesses.

But hey I suppose you must know better than the Word of God. Good for you. Of course. the God of the Bible might not like that so much, although with any luck your personally manufactured Savior will be just peachy with it. Sounds groovy.

Again, it'd be your usage of free will whether or not you want to agree with these individuals or not. If not, keep down that path you were alluding to -- I don't know if it is hot, but it sure will be empty, apart from God.

Just as it's your own free wll to reject the Christ of the Bible and reconstruct him in your own image. "I [Jesus] am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6, NIV)

Sounds to me like I'll be seeing you in Hell, Buddy Boy. I'll save you a nice warm spot.

[moneyline]

" - Don't most Christians believe they are 'saved' when they are baptized?

- Yes, those who follow the New Testament exactly do (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38)"

That was, and still is, an incomplete answer to DH, SportsGirl ... anyone who read that would believe that a Christian believes he is saved when he is baptized ... and instead of writing out the rest of the quote, you just left the numbers there (worthless sitting on their own), knowing most would not bother to open their Bible and read the rest ...

You seem to be like most people who quote chapter and verse with regularity, as if the numbers themselves were talismen ... I am not interested in you doing that, SportsGirl. Either write out the important words or I'm not at all interested in what you have to say.

(but I will keep calling you out on your intellectual dishonesty, of that you can be sure)

And Dazzy, you believe Biblical scholars "rationalize"? Gotcha. They've spent their entire lives dedicated to understanding the Bible -- little did they know, with just a cherry-pick here and another there, you've been able to show them up as charlatans. Good on ya, mate!

[Sportsgirl]

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[pavyracer]

Who wrote the Bible? God?

[moneyline]

You were being intellectually dishonest. No matter how many times you say you weren't, you realize you were. But enough of that ...

Everything you are quoting revolves around acceptance of Jesus Christ. Having water poured over your head as a child with no understanding of the Lord is meaningless. Every one of the quotes revolves around the resurrection of the Lord.

Oh, and SG, you do fancy yourself an intellectual when it comes to the Bible. It oozes out each of your pores every text you write. Saying it isn't so doesn't change the fact of how it comes across.

And one other hint. Stop writing in every post "I don't care what you say ...," "that has no meaning to me whatsoever..." and things of the like. The more you write it, the more obvious it is that YOU DO care. Just a tip, in case you do the same thing in your newspaper articles.

[Sportsgirl]

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[moneyline]

Oh, SG, you want to get into a good, old fashioned "pissing" contest ... one last salvo for now.

1. Looking at your post to DH is all the proof I need. You may be wilfully obtuse, but the post you wrote to him verified his assertion that most Christians believe they are saved if they are baptized. And in place of explaining any further, you wrote down the numbers (chapter and verse) with the haughty attitude, if you are too lazy to look it up, it's not my job to show it to you. Intellectually dishonesy at its finest.

2. Actually, you didn't quote you must repent first. In your initial post to DH, you just wrote down Acts 2:38 ... only after I called you on it did you deign to quote anything. More intellectual dishonesty by the esteemed SG.

3. Two things. First, you make who has more biblical knowledge out to be a competition (uh-oh, there goes that humility) and also, you still seem to come from the debate school of "If I say I am better, I AM better." The weakest form of debate ever -- surprised you are such a devotee of it.

4. NO truth in anything I say. Really? You mean Jesus isn't the way to heaven? God did not give us all free will? Good works are not enough to get us into heaven? There isn't only one true God? I'e said all of these things in my posts. I am amazed to find that you believe there is no truth to any of them. Some Christian you are, SG.

(at least I got you to stop saying "I don't care what you say" -- it is a step in the right direction)

[Sportsgirl]

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[Sportsgirl]

1

[moneyline]

No problem. Every little bit helps.

(but I did get you to stop -- after all, you did it every post until I told you not to and then you stopped ... coincidence, I think not)

Oh, and SG, I like your answer to Pavy, but could you please provide chapter and verse for your answer? After all, if you can't provide a quote, then it's just your baseless opinion. We can't have that, now can we?

[Sportsgirl]

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[moneyline]

Now you're just piddling on the rug out of spite. Oh, well.

Chapter and verse that the Bible was written by men inspired by God please? So funny you can disparage others whenever a number isn't attached to their view, but yet you don't attach one to your own.

Chapter and verse? Or just more SG opinion?

(I know, I know, you could care less -- or is it couldn't)

[Arnold]

But yet millions upon millions of people ARE convinced. Arnold, don't you get tired of being wrong?

(obviously not)

Numbers of followers is not an indication of absolute truth. Islam has millions upon millions of followers. So are they right? Or perhaps, millions of nazis were the right ones?

Now you see how stupid your arguments are?

GOD IS STILL ON THE THRONE !!!

And that throne is in your mind.

see the increase in earthquakes , floods , fires ,wars

Hm, I don't see any increase in it. Care to show some facts? There is certainly an increase in population, which can have some side effects to it, but an increase in earthquakes? Maybe you are referring to an increase in earthquake recording stations? Otherwise you must be on something very strong.

new national id ,cards coming soon .............and GOD predicted it in the bible

God predicted new national ID cards in the Bible? Please, stop waisting our time and go get yourself a genuine copy.

[Arnold]

I am immune to death because of Jesus -- not bodily death

Then you don't have the "sign".

When you read the Bible as a whole, you look for confirmation -- that is what allows you to discern symbolism from a literal statement. Please quote any other place in the NT where drinking deadly poison without bodily harm is mentioned in the NT. You can't. It isn't. Welcome to symbolism alluding to eternal life, pal.

That's right, it talks about speaking in tongues and casting out demons elsewhere, too. A sign of being saved is not a symbolism statement, as it goes against any common sense. But of course, you Christians, need to twist meaning of every phrase and every word. There is nothing new about you. Same old hypocritical Christian. Why won't you all go to heaven already?!

Partial quotes when using chapter and verse ARE of great interest to me, btw, because they are a tool used by dishonest people.

You are your own greatest enemy. Why am I even posting?

[Arnold]

Chapter and verse that the Bible was written by men inspired by God please?

You never read "All scripture is given by inspiration of God"? Of course, it refers only to the Old Testament, but it couldn't be otherwise, since that's the only "Bible" that existed at the time.

[moneyline]

Goes to the SG's insistence that, if there was not a chapter and verse attached to a statement, the statement had no validity.

Leave it to Arnold the Canadian to enter a part of a conversation after it is done, miss the point, but try like heck to get his point across anyway.

Edit: Sorry, Arnold, but I had to prevent you from speaking to yourself post after post any longer. It is for your own good

[Arnold]

Goes to the SG's insistence that, if there was not a chapter and verse attached to a statement, the statement had no validity.

First of all, there is a verse attached to her statement. Second, for the most part you can't just invent something that isn't in the Bible and call it a biblical doctrine. That's why we have Trinity today, because some decided to ignore this basic principle.

Leave it to Arnold the Canadian to enter a part of a conversation after it is done, miss the point, but try like heck to get his point across anyway.

What conversation is done? Are you talking about those 2 times you brought this thread back to life?

Edit: Sorry, Arnold, but I had to prevent you from speaking to yourself post after post any longer. It is for your own good

I wasn't speaking to myself. There were a bunch of posts written since the last time I was here, and I had something to reply to a few. Is it that hard to understand? If your religion was true, then your God would give you brains. Either that, or he is just sick of you like everybody else here.

[moneyline]

Arnold, you were speaking to yourself, posting over and over like an automated machine. I didn't want to see that happening all night -- no need to thank me. You just needed some help.

BTW, Arnold, you have a God. Just because you don't have the desire to acknowledge Him, does not make Him a non-existent entity. It just makes you the guy who ignores Him, makes his life worse here on earth and condemns himself to an eternity separated from Him in heaven ...

Funny, he gave you brains. You just choose not to use them.

[Arnold]

Arnold, you were speaking to yourself, posting over and over like an automated machine. I didn't want to see that happening all night -- no need to thank me. You just needed some help.

I was replying if you haven't noticed. We already got it - you're an idiot. No need to show it to us more and more and more and more.

BTW, Arnold, you have a God. Just because you don't have the desire to acknowledge Him, does not make Him a non-existent entity. It just makes you the guy who ignores Him, makes his life worse here on earth and condemns himself to an eternity separated from Him in heaven ..

You also have a God - Santa Claus. Just because you don't want to acknowledge him, does not make him a non-existent entity, etc, etc...

Funny, he gave you brains. You just choose not to use them.

You don't need brains to be a Christian. Case closed.

[moneyline]

Folks like you are so funny. You like to label those who believe in God and Jesus, and who believe in spreading the word as idiots.

That approach might work on those who never got past the 4th grade, but when you are dealing with a person who has received more education than you (B.A., Master's, J.D. with a semester at Harvard to boot), has traveled to more places around the world than you in a way you could only imagine (www.backpackernation.com -- 70 countries and counting), had done more to help others (elementary school teacher in neighborhood schools, worker at Mother Theresa's Home for the Dying, attorney for the indigent) and done it all in 38 years, as opposed to you falling short despite having many more years on this earth, it just seems disingenuous on your part, know what I mean, Arnie?

(now is your chance to explain that not all Christians are idiots, just the ones that have three degrees, have traveled the world and who decidate their lives to the betterment of others -- ooh, I can hardly wait)

(or maybe you'll tell me since I don't know you, I can't know that I am well ahead of you in all these ways ... considering I am in the top 5% in all categories, conservatively speaking, the odds are with me, Arnie ...)

[Dark Horse]

I am immune to death because of Jesus -- not bodily death, of course, but as Jesus has granted me eternal life, a poisonous snake cannot take that away from me.

The religion that has done the most to instill the fear of death into the masses is Christianity. About two thirds of the world population believes in reincarnation, and the immortality of the soul.

Eat arrogant little Christians for breakfast!

[moneyline]

Actually, Christianity instills the exact opposite, if you understood it, DH. It has taken away any fear of death I may have had. I thank the Lord for my life here, but when it is time to go, I have 0% fear ... and that is because of my Christianity ...

It is those who believe in nothing or the endless reincarnation from a dog to a horse to a person to ... well, to whatever ... those are the people with fears, buddy. And rightfully so ...

[Dark Horse]

I have no fear either. Death is my best friend. And I don't need that strange religion for it.

Go talk to people from other religions. And compare to yours. Fear of death is all over Christianity. Aren't you trained to think of yourselves as sinners? And that sinners burn in hell for all of eternity? Ignorant medieval concepts.

[moneyline]

Death is your best friend? Wow. Better not tell your wife or children or family that.

You need the Lord even more than I could have imagined.

[trotter9]

This thread is getting kind of ugly - typical.

Oh, SG, you want to get into a good, old fashioned "pissing" contest ... one last salvo for now.

1. Looking at your post to DH is all the proof I need. You may be wilfully obtuse, but the post you wrote to him verified his assertion that most Christians believe they are saved if they are baptized. And in place of explaining any further, you wrote down the numbers (chapter and verse) with the haughty attitude, if you are too lazy to look it up, it's not my job to show it to you. Intellectually dishonesy at its finest.

2. Actually, you didn't quote you must repent first. In your initial post to DH, you just wrote down Acts 2:38 ... only after I called you on it did you deign to quote anything. More intellectual dishonesty by the esteemed SG.

3. Two things. First, you make who has more biblical knowledge out to be a competition (uh-oh, there goes that humility) and also, you still seem to come from the debate school of "If I say I am better, I AM better." The weakest form of debate ever -- surprised you are such a devotee of it.

4. NO truth in anything I say. Really? You mean Jesus isn't the way to heaven? God did not give us all free will? Good works are not enough to get us into heaven? There isn't only one true God? I'e said all of these things in my posts. I am amazed to find that you believe there is no truth to any of them. Some Christian you are, SG.

(at least I got you to stop saying "I don't care what you say" -- it is a step in the right direction)

[ShamsWoof10]

The religion that has done the most to instill the fear of death into the masses is Christianity. About two thirds of the world population believes in reincarnation, and the immortality of the soul.

Eat arrogant little Christians for breakfast!

Interesting.....

[Arnold]

Folks like you are so funny. You like to label those who believe in God and Jesus, and who believe in spreading the word as idiots.

I don't label them. They put a name to themselves. I'm not the one who types all these retarded things. Someone has to take responsibility for all this smelly mess.

That approach might work on those who never got past the 4th grade, but when you are dealing with a person who has received more education than you

I don't care about your education. You're still dumb as a log. If your IQ and critical thinking is not there, then no amount of education will help you.

a semester at Harvard to boot

Wow, a whole semester

has traveled to more places around the world than you in a way you could only imagine

What do I or anyone cares about how many places you traveled to? What does it have to do with your brains? But everything you say here and how you debate - is all that matters.

had done more to help others (elementary school teacher in neighborhood schools, worker at Mother Theresa's Home for the Dying, attorney for the indigent) and done it all in 38 years

As I said before, good for you. Who cares! We're talking about your brains, not about how you helped others.

as opposed to you falling short despite having many more years on this earth, it just seems disingenuous on your part, know what I mean, Arnie?

No, I don't know what you mean.

(now is your chance to explain that not all Christians are idiots, just the ones that have three degrees, have traveled the world and who decidate their lives to the betterment of others -- ooh, I can hardly wait)

Only the ones that think it matters something are the true idiots.

(or maybe you'll tell me since I don't know you, I can't know that I am well ahead of you in all these ways ... considering I am in the top 5% in all categories, conservatively speaking, the odds are with me, Arnie ...)

I'm not in a contest with you. I just put your intelligence under a big question mark. Reading this thread, it doesn't show that you have any at all.

[Arnold]

Actually, Christianity instills the exact opposite, if you understood it, DH. It has taken away any fear of death I may have had

I think he means the "2nd death", or "hell" how it is more commonly known. Christians do fear of hell more than anyone and anything else.