Horse Racing questions and answers

[batt33]

Black Tie Optional Update ( Not this time)



Black Tie Optional is doing well at Wavertree Stables. As you will see in the photo, he is going through a bit of a growth spurt and awkward phase, but he continues to catch the eye. He remains on a weekly speed work routine and can be seen galloping above. When purchasing this colt, we never had plans for him being a particularly early type. Based on his physical changes, patience and time is only going to benefit him. None of these are negative things, but they will be taken into consideration when we decide on timing for shipping him to the track.

https://cdnb-media.myracehorse.com/blog/video/MyMovie180_1741912027739/MP4/MyMovie180_1741912027739.mp4

[batt33]

who's the trainer going to be ?

Cherie DeVaux

[JBEX]

thanks batt..excellent results at this sale to say the least ..there's still another i believe @ 746

rna @ 90k

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: FG R8. the horse in question is the #3 Ancient World. cost 525K. a 3-year-old. If able watch the replay. Interested to get your take on Him. You can access the PP's thru into mischief.
Not sure of the quality of the field he beat but a heck of a performance. THX in advance.

[JBEX]

554 went for 350,000 love the trainer! 627 is an out

who's the trainer going to be ?

[JBEX]

554 went for 350,000 love the trainer! 627 is an out

thanks batt..excellent results at this sale to say the least ..there's still another I believe @ 746

[batt33]

I would throw a party if I got one for 22k. These Army Mules seem to overcome big odds regularly from the auction block.

. When I get some time going to take a closer look at some video's to see why the price.
Took a look, I was hoping for a head on shot or walking away shot never did show it. I don't have a real good eye looking from the side.

[batt33]

yes i saw the 3rd one went for 22k and agree with what you said about same consignor might be a good sign .. I think the remaining 3 are going tomorrow

554 went for 350,000 love the trainer! 627 is an out

[JBEX]

by army mule..colonial downs R7 #5 susan's mule (9-2)@ 3:35

half the field is scratched including susan's mule..don't get it with a fast track

[lesterdymond]

Thank you for the best responses STR

[Madison]

Ok. Steroids.

They were legal to use, and really did help horses gain weight, muscle, sometimes aggressiveness, more apatite, which led to more nutrition, and overall growth and better health . That is what you would see. But that was long before it was realized by the people giving it as well as the trainers, owners, and everyone involved including the FDA , that there were serious side affects that came with them. Now, I can already hear the skeptics hollering, "you should have known better., What the hell were you thinking".
Well, I along with the majority of people out there were thinking exactly what they had learned and been taught. Turns out, what we were taught, and what was 100% legal had really bad long term side affects. As a result, when studies proved this as well as the Lance Armstrong stuff , the Major League Baseball stuff, NFL stuff, and all competition both people and animals, it was banned.

For the record, both my wife and I recall breaking a thermometer so we could flick the mercury balls all over the place, and then go eat some candy and lick your fingers. All this while the parents were smoking cigarettes' in the next room, and might fall asleep smoking at night with NO smoke detectors but little kids in the house to grow up breathing that 2nd hand smoke. So please take a minute to realize that many things did not yet exist, like no seat belts, no helmets for bike riders, skate board riders, every kid had a BB gun at minimum, drunk drivers were everywhere. Heck, drunks passed out in the parks were everywhere. And this was in Wash. D.,C. Capital of the United States. Every TV show has the funny drunk guy in it. So please keep in in perceptive.
Once steroids were banned, that did not stop people from using it but over a time, people started getting caught and we all know how badly that ended.

The actual banning of all steroidal products did not occur until around 2003? +/-. I'm not sure, but any of us old enough to remember, we all knew all about it.
I am not positive because I was not involved anymore with the training BUT, if I'm not mistaken, you can administer steroids today in some instances while out of training, however, I have no idea about the timelines involved with that.

Whatever the case, racing has cleaned that up and without knowing the exacts with withdrawal times, I think it is safe to say that you cannot have steroids on the grounds of a racetrack except for a medical emergency that would have to be administered by a licensed vet, recorded and documented on paper, and that paper work given to ,the Stewards.
To be clear from when it was still legal, at NO TIME was a Trainer allowed to administer ANY injectable whatsoever. Did it happen? YES ! Did I ever do it. Absolutely NOT. Did most trainers do it? NO. Did every track have there handful of trainers that DID do it. Unfortunately, yes.
A few years before I left the game, a steroidal came out and trainers loved using it. I had a horse with a ton of deep congestion in his lungs that seemed immune to everything we tried to eradicate it. He had not run yet so he was a 3 year old baby in the spring. The name of that crap escapes me, probably willed that name out of my head, but I used it, and I absolutely HATED IT. No, wait, I F'in hated it!
I remember getting so upset one morning that I threw it in the muck pit and told my entire barn, heck probably the entire stable area I was so pissed, that we would NEVER have that in my barn again. I really lost my temper. It was very near the end of my career, my mom had passed away, which was the main reason I had stayed as I was mentally done around 1991,2-3 ish but she was still alive. And I was NOT going to leave the track while she was living. It would have shattered her and she had fought alcoholism and at the time was beating it, and there was no way I was going to disturb that.

I guess that is a story for another day but to finish up, with steroids, I saw for the 1st time in my life, what steroids could do to a horse in a bad way. I had seen all the positive effects of it and like most, assumed it was fine, but as we all know today, it is not.

I do not think you should worry at all about steroids Lester. In todays drug tests they are looking for that as hard or harder than probably anything else. I could be wrong, but I think it is long gone and if used, that trainer will be long gone in no time at all.

Whatever todays working time frames are, they are way way out as far as having any in a horses system at the time of the race. Months not days if I remember correctly.

Hope that helped. Didn't mean to go off the rails for a bit but figured you might want to know more than a yes or no answer.

I grew up gambling on greyhounds (70's) at Seabrook (NH). As a non smoker I often joked that I would probably die from lung cancer as the 2nd hand smoke in the clubhouse was as dense as the strongest fog you've ever seen. But, I'm still here and lungs are not my largest health issue.

[Madison]

When I saw the replay, it looked like the rider had discussed a lead change problem with the trainer prior to the race and was going to help or remind the horse to switch leads. But, just as the rider went to do that by shifting his weight from one stirrup to the other, the horse switched leads on it's own. Because they both occurred at the same time, it looked awkward and that is what that two stride oddity was. It just looked like something else maybe but that from my view was all that it was.

Overall, this horse IMO just has not learned the full art of running yet. Still a little green. It usually takes time to learn all the little things that goes on for a horse. Simply put, the horse is just not mentally up to speed yet but the ability is certainly there. I would look for an improvement over the next 2-3 races and will be happy to point out those subtleties when watching the reruns in the future.
Certainly a nice horse to follow. It has a ton of ability.

Thanks Madison.

Thank you sir. All things are never ending eye openers to a newbie like me.

[str]

STR I was curious about the steroid use too and working time frames. Trainers like Moquett, Rice who been in hot water before.

Ok. Steroids.

They were legal to use, and really did help horses gain weight, muscle, sometimes aggressiveness, more apatite, which led to more nutrition, and overall growth and better health . That is what you would see. But that was long before it was realized by the people giving it as well as the trainers, owners, and everyone involved including the FDA , that there were serious side affects that came with them. Now, I can already hear the skeptics hollering, "you should have known better., What the hell were you thinking".
Well, I along with the majority of people out there were thinking exactly what they had learned and been taught. Turns out, what we were taught, and what was 100% legal had really bad long term side affects. As a result, when studies proved this as well as the Lance Armstrong stuff , the Major League Baseball stuff, NFL stuff, and all competition both people and animals, it was banned.

For the record, both my wife and I recall breaking a thermometer so we could flick the mercury balls all over the place, and then go eat some candy and lick your fingers. All this while the parents were smoking cigarettes' in the next room, and might fall asleep smoking at night with NO smoke detectors but little kids in the house to grow up breathing that 2nd hand smoke. So please take a minute to realize that many things did not yet exist, like no seat belts, no helmets for bike riders, skate board riders, every kid had a BB gun at minimum, drunk drivers were everywhere. Heck, drunks passed out in the parks were everywhere. And this was in Wash. D.,C. Capital of the United States. Every TV show has the funny drunk guy in it. So please keep in in perceptive.
Once steroids were banned, that did not stop people from using it but over a time, people started getting caught and we all know how badly that ended.

The actual banning of all steroidal products did not occur until around 2003? +/-. I'm not sure, but any of us old enough to remember, we all knew all about it.
I am not positive because I was not involved anymore with the training BUT, if I'm not mistaken, you can administer steroids today in some instances while out of training, however, I have no idea about the timelines involved with that.

Whatever the case, racing has cleaned that up and without knowing the exacts with withdrawal times, I think it is safe to say that you cannot have steroids on the grounds of a racetrack except for a medical emergency that would have to be administered by a licensed vet, recorded and documented on paper, and that paper work given to ,the Stewards.
To be clear from when it was still legal, at NO TIME was a Trainer allowed to administer ANY injectable whatsoever. Did it happen? YES ! Did I ever do it. Absolutely NOT. Did most trainers do it? NO. Did every track have there handful of trainers that DID do it. Unfortunately, yes.
A few years before I left the game, a steroidal came out and trainers loved using it. I had a horse with a ton of deep congestion in his lungs that seemed immune to everything we tried to eradicate it. He had not run yet so he was a 3 year old baby in the spring. The name of that crap escapes me, probably willed that name out of my head, but I used it, and I absolutely HATED IT. No, wait, I F'in hated it!
I remember getting so upset one morning that I threw it in the muck pit and told my entire barn, heck probably the entire stable area I was so pissed, that we would NEVER have that in my barn again. I really lost my temper. It was very near the end of my career, my mom had passed away, which was the main reason I had stayed as I was mentally done around 1991,2-3 ish but she was still alive. And I was NOT going to leave the track while she was living. It would have shattered her and she had fought alcoholism and at the time was beating it, and there was no way I was going to disturb that.

I guess that is a story for another day but to finish up, with steroids, I saw for the 1st time in my life, what steroids could do to a horse in a bad way. I had seen all the positive effects of it and like most, assumed it was fine, but as we all know today, it is not.

I do not think you should worry at all about steroids Lester. In todays drug tests they are looking for that as hard or harder than probably anything else. I could be wrong, but I think it is long gone and if used, that trainer will be long gone in no time at all.

Whatever todays working time frames are, they are way way out as far as having any in a horses system at the time of the race. Months not days if I remember correctly.

Hope that helped. Didn't mean to go off the rails for a bit but figured you might want to know more than a yes or no answer.

[lesterdymond]

STR I was curious about the steroid use too and working time frames. Trainers like Moquett, Rice who been in hot water before.

[str]

3rd army mule went for 22,000 dam is a producer I would say some conformation issues. It will be interesting to see what hip 554 goes for as a nice pedigree . Same consignor as the 950,000 horse

I would throw a party if I got one for 22k. These Army Mules seem to overcome big odds regularly from the auction block.

[str]

by army mule..colonial downs R7 #5 susan's mule (9-2)@ 3:35

This is a nice , solid race. The outside horses as well as the Army Mule will be a race in itself. All three like to do the same thing.
If any of those end up the winner, it will be very well deserved.

[JBEX]

by army mule..colonial downs R7 #5 susan's mule (9-2)@ 3:35

[JBEX]

3rd army mule went for 22,000 dam is a producer I would say some conformation issues. It will be interesting to see what hip 554 goes for as a nice pedigree . Same consignor as the 950,000 horse

yes i saw the 3rd one went for 22k and agree with what you said about same consignor might be a good sign .. I think the remaining 3 are going tomorrow

[batt33]

looks like the 2nd one sold for $175k ..you're right it's 6 altogether

3rd army mule went for 22,000 dam is a producer I would say some conformation issues. It will be interesting to see what hip 554 goes for as a nice pedigree . Same consignor as the 950,000 horse

[str]

STR,

How may races can the dope or Lasix give a horse an edge if any ?

Do you mean bute when you say dope ?

As for Lasix , what it does is allow the horse to not bleed which chocks them up . That way they can run to their true ability. That’s why you can’t take them off and put them back on . Once you are “ON “ the horse must stay on Lasix except for the Grade 1 races. And there are other things that can help prevent bleeding but it doesn’t get them high, or lit up, just anti bleeding.
Let me know about the dope clarification and I will explain it.
Hope that makes sense .
Thanks Lester.

[lesterdymond]

STR,

How may races can the dope or Lasix give a horse an edge if any ?

[JBEX]

looks like the 2nd one sold for $175k ..you're right it's 6 altogether

[JBEX]

6 "Army Mules" at the OBS 2 year old in training sales. First one sold was a "homerun" $950'00. second highest of the day I believe.

yeah I see that..thanks batt

bought by the owners of army mule when he raced..dam sire violence is one of the best first out sires there is and horse has to be a beast with him on the bottom .. broken record I know but it's just extraordinary considering AM's modest fee at the time of conception

[batt33]

6 "Army Mules" at the OBS 2 year old in training sales. First one sold was a "homerun" $950'00. second highest of the day I believe.

[JBEX]

I thought I saw 62,500 but no biggie. That would make sense though, being 25% higher than a claiming 50k, which they probably offer now and then. That odd amount would allow for a claimed 50k horse to run back in the next claiming rank up without necessarily having to run in an allowance race.

The beauty of running for the 62,500 amount is it would allow you to win the same race twice. Once as a claimer, and again as an A other than maiden or claiming. Two wins in the same condition.

Is it somewhat of a gamble. Oh yeah. Welcome to the cat and mouse game of claiming. I did it all the time and people asked me why I didn't bet on the horses very often. It is stuff like this I was betting on. And a lot more than I would have bet at the windows.

my mistake ..think it is $62.5 ..really would seem about right for where WG is at this poin..whether it's two shots in the alw optional claimer or up from a 50k n2l if it was available

can see how these must be tough decisions ..to lose a 3yo via claim who shows some talent and goes on to win some nice races must be to say the least..frustrating

[str]

thought it was a $65k n2L claiming race
by what you said but see it's actually a race she'd qualify under the allowance n2L condition and not be up for sale .. $65k would be an odd amount for a clm n2L race and that's what made me look

I thought I saw 62,500 but no biggie. That would make sense though, being 25% higher than a claiming 50k, which they probably offer now and then. That odd amount would allow for a claimed 50k horse to run back in the next claiming rank up without necessarily having to run in an allowance race.

The beauty of running for the 62,500 amount is it would allow you to win the same race twice. Once as a claimer, and again as an A other than maiden or claiming. Two wins in the same condition.

Is it somewhat of a gamble. Oh yeah. Welcome to the cat and mouse game of claiming. I did it all the time and people asked me why I didn't bet on the horses very often. It is stuff like this I was betting on. And a lot more than I would have bet at the windows.

[str]

Kind of agree, but only 3rd start, plus 2nd back after a long layoff. I'll defer to our mentor/master to critique.

When I saw the replay, it looked like the rider had discussed a lead change problem with the trainer prior to the race and was going to help or remind the horse to switch leads. But, just as the rider went to do that by shifting his weight from one stirrup to the other, the horse switched leads on it's own. Because they both occurred at the same time, it looked awkward and that is what that two stride oddity was. It just looked like something else maybe but that from my view was all that it was.

Overall, this horse IMO just has not learned the full art of running yet. Still a little green. It usually takes time to learn all the little things that goes on for a horse. Simply put, the horse is just not mentally up to speed yet but the ability is certainly there. I would look for an improvement over the next 2-3 races and will be happy to point out those subtleties when watching the reruns in the future.
Certainly a nice horse to follow. It has a ton of ability.

Thanks Madison.

[JBEX]

amazing to the novice how much goes into getting a horse to perform at there best and cool to get a glimpse of it like you gave ..guess it's a natural thing fir you to see a young horse who shows a lot of potential but appears not to be spotted right or have races spaced optimally ... especially if the sire's army mule ..sure you would get the most out of her and probably as a young 3yo be an exciting prospect to work with .. you see lots of upside potential and feel it's not out of the question she could return to listed stakes races again ..pretty cool

spot at laurel would be perfect and get a little extra protection at a $65k tag..in addition allowance races at laurel probably more in her range vs the ones in arkansas or ky so there'd be a good path to follow .. if you got a horse like that via claim or just a trainer change seems like a challenge you would've relished to take on back when you were active

thought it was a $65k n2L claiming race
by what you said but see it's actually a race she'd qualify under the allowance n2L condition and not be up for sale .. $65k would be an odd amount for a clm n2L race and that's what made me look

[JBEX]

by army mule .. gulfstream R4 #6 human desire (3-1) @ 2:26

[Madison]

He really took off down the stretch when he finally changed leads.... looked like the jockey and him were fighting at the top of the stretch.

Kind of agree, but only 3rd start, plus 2nd back after a long layoff. I'll defer to our mentor/master to critique.

[JBEX]

Non Winners of 2 for 62,500 at Laurel on March 28th going 6F.


But I would have already been there with her.

I would worm her, check her bloodwork for any deficiency's and correct it if it is not perfect ,check/float or fix her teeth, line up her shoeing for around the 20th, stand her and back out of the gate a few times to help the gate crew get to know her, and her them, make sure she is eating every morning, make her as happy as I can along with making sure she is 100% sound and if not Fix whatever the minor problem might be prior to, make sure she gets to graze on grass for 20 minutes daily when it is quiet.
I would get a first call on the best rider I could get, have that rider work her twice, set up both works to have her finish up, win and gain that winning confidence ( much like you see with some of Batt's videos,) and overall, just let her know how special she really is. Don't think they don't get that memo, they do. Have the pony walk with her some mornings so when they get together on race day, she is familiar with that pony and rider.
That should be more than enough to get her into the winners circle on the 28th.

It ain't rocket science JBEX. Just attention to detail. And after she wins, send her to the farm to the guy that takes care of Batt's horses and let her have 3 weeks off . Then... rinse and repeat the same routine in an A other than. She would most likely win that as well, off what had transpired. Then... 2 other than and after that a stake that is not graded or at Saratoga. Something very reasonable. Off three wins, she is live there.
Then.... mic drop. Lol.


Seriously, This stuff is easy on paper but in real life, it is one day at a time. Some common sense and a lot of luck.

Now I will hang my stopwatch back up on my office wall.

amazing to the novice how much goes into getting a horse to perform at there best and cool to get a glimpse of it like you gave ..guess it's a natural thing fir you to see a young horse who shows a lot of potential but appears not to be spotted right or have races spaced optimally ... especially if the sire's army mule ..sure you would get the most out of her and probably as a young 3yo be an exciting prospect to work with .. you see lots of upside potential and feel it's not out of the question she could return to listed stakes races again ..pretty cool

spot at laurel would be perfect and get a little extra protection at a $65k tag..in addition allowance races at laurel probably more in her range vs the ones in arkansas or ky so there'd be a good path to follow .. if you got a horse like that via claim or just a trainer change seems like a challenge you would've relished to take on back when you were active

[str]

never know with those connections lol .. I'm predicting they do the right thing ..1-2 month rest and as I've stated before believe a high tag n2l claimer is where she belongs..at the big tracks they have a very nice purse relative to that type of race ..if she's taken ,which I think there's a good chance she wouldn't be , imo they'll have done well with the horse for what they paid..guess taking a shot at an allowance race isn't ridiculous but have a hunch oak and kee at that level are going to be over her head ..especially the latter

be interesting to see where she winds up..any opinion ,if she's ok, just by the pp's where she should run ?



.
.

Non Winners of 2 for 62,500 at Laurel on March 28th going 6F.


But I would have already been there with her.

I would worm her, check her bloodwork for any deficiency's and correct it if it is not perfect ,check/float or fix her teeth, line up her shoeing for around the 20th, stand her and back out of the gate a few times to help the gate crew get to know her, and her them, make sure she is eating every morning, make her as happy as I can along with making sure she is 100% sound and if not Fix whatever the minor problem might be prior to, make sure she gets to graze on grass for 20 minutes daily when it is quiet.
I would get a first call on the best rider I could get, have that rider work her twice, set up both works to have her finish up, win and gain that winning confidence ( much like you see with some of Batt's videos,) and overall, just let her know how special she really is. Don't think they don't get that memo, they do. Have the pony walk with her some mornings so when they get together on race day, she is familiar with that pony and rider.
That should be more than enough to get her into the winners circle on the 28th.

It ain't rocket science JBEX. Just attention to detail. And after she wins, send her to the farm to the guy that takes care of Batt's horses and let her have 3 weeks off . Then... rinse and repeat the same routine in an A other than. She would most likely win that as well, off what had transpired. Then... 2 other than and after that a stake that is not graded or at Saratoga. Something very reasonable. Off three wins, she is live there.
Then.... mic drop. Lol.


Seriously, This stuff is easy on paper but in real life, it is one day at a time. Some common sense and a lot of luck.

Now I will hang my stopwatch back up on my office wall.

[JBEX]

never know with those connections lol .. I'm predicting they do the right thing ..1-2 month rest and as I've stated before believe a high tag n2l claimer is where she belongs..at the big tracks they have a very nice purse relative to that type of race ..if she's taken ,which I think there's a good chance she wouldn't be , imo they'll have done well with the horse for what they paid..guess taking a shot at an allowance race isn't ridiculous but have a hunch oak and kee at that level are going to be over her head ..especially the latter

be interesting to see where she winds up..any opinion ,if she's ok, just by the pp's where she should run ?



.



.

the main reason I lack confidence with an allowance race for her,which I've said before, is her msw win was vs restricted (max auction price) company




.

[JBEX]

They sure do JBEX. Class relief to a lesser track can really make a slow horse fast in a hurry. That one yesterday has plenty of wins in it. Just find the spot and let her shine.

Meanwhile:

It's been over two weeks and no Wisconsin Gal. I figuring they might be breeding her in Ky. while passing through to the next 800 mile away track to run at and be 40-1. And she will be most likely 5th beaten about 6 lengths while running her heart out.

Guess I'm being a jerk this morning. But I really do like that horse a lot. She must be so cool to be around.

never know with those connections lol .. I'm predicting they do the right thing ..1-2 month rest and as I've stated before believe a high tag n2l claimer is where she belongs..at the big tracks they have a very nice purse relative to that type of race ..if she's taken ,which I think there's a good chance she wouldn't be , imo they'll have done well with the horse for what they paid..guess taking a shot at an allowance race isn't ridiculous but have a hunch oak and kee at that level are going to be over her head ..especially the latter

be interesting to see where she winds up..any opinion ,if she's ok, just by the pp's where she should run ?



.



.

[str]

interesting thing ..even bottom of the barrel horses at oaklawn (because it's a top level track)who show some ability have a life at places like canterbury, prarie meadows, oklahoma and texas tracks etc..he's not there yet but just pointing out there are other paths if he can't get it done




.

They sure do JBEX. Class relief to a lesser track can really make a slow horse fast in a hurry. That one yesterday has plenty of wins in it. Just find the spot and let her shine.

Meanwhile:

It's been over two weeks and no Wisconsin Gal. I figuring they might be breeding her in Ky. while passing through to the next 800 mile away track to run at and be 40-1. And she will be most likely 5th beaten about 6 lengths while running her heart out.

Guess I'm being a jerk this morning. But I really do like that horse a lot. She must be so cool to be around.