Horse Racing questions and answers

[batt33]

2nd time .. got it

Right on! glad you could decipher my tip!

[Easy-Rider 66]

Didn't know that. Sorry EZ.

my bad I should have mentioned that in my question. THX again

[str]

I looked at the Army mule tonight race 8 turfway.... it seems to always have gate trouble.... with just one work out of the gate .... just wondering why there isn't more..... an STR question for sure!

With horses that have trouble at the gate , the vast majority of the time it is nerves and the horse just not liking the gate or a lasting memory of something the horse really hated. Working out of the gate especially with the bell, in most cases, makes the horse worse. Basically, it scares the living crap out of them.

What you want to do is take them back to the gate in as quiet a stetting as possible, typically late in the morning when a lot of the action and noise has settled down, and let the gate crew work with the horse by handling it, rubbing it's head, gently talking to it and lightly petting it. Preferably a female rider if you employ one ( which I always made it a point to do). Then quietly load the horse with the doors open for a couple of days, back it in and out and finally, back it out and let it walk away from the side of the gate. After a couple of successful trips doing that, you take the next step and slowly hand close the gate with the horse in it, all the while talking softly and reassuring the horse. Once that is acceptable to the horse, you hand open the doors, NO BELL, and back it out and let it go home happy and more confident. This can take 2-3-4 weeks but it means everything so it in my mind was priority # 1.
When I did that, I did not consider when to run back until we were all satisfied the horse was much better in the gate. You can still be training the horse with workouts but never from the gate. Also, switch grooms to a girl groom if possible. That works almost every time.
Softer voice, softer hands, softer demeanor. It can work miracles Batt. If you can get all that accomplished, the horse will gain weight, have a better attitude, etc. Then, fix the workouts to let this horse win a workout a couple of times. Maybe from behind and close inside, or split horses, whatever the horses strengths are. Then, if the form allows, and it usually does, double drop , or more if necessary, the horse in class and if there is a competent girl rider, use her. Of course, she will have worked the horse a couple of times prior in those fixed workouts. Then, enter and hope everything goes as planned. If it does, positive results typically follow.
You can even go further by getting a radio and put it on a mellow channel and hang it on the horses stall and let it play every morning. Nice calm, relaxing music. Preferably a female singer. Joanie Mitchell, Lulu, etc. was big back in the day. Not my thing but the necrotic horses loved it. Sorry Janis, you music was to be played around the other side of the barn to some bad ass horse that wanted to hear that.

Girl groom, hot walker, exercise rider, and jockey. What was there not to like. See ya in the winners circle.

[str]

OK STR race was run on the tapeta so off the turf. THX for your take.

Didn't know that. Sorry EZ.

[str]

good to hear batt..was thinking with him being about 3 lengths off the pace at the first 3 calls and them going 1:11 through 6f in his last race maybe could be looked at as a nice workout..he's got 1 less race (if you view his last that way) as the typical horse going to a final leg derby prep..obviously they were looking for a big effort in the la derby but a return in 2 weeks from a fitness perspective doesn't seem crazy to me under these circumstances

Hey, it's Wayne friggin Lukas. It's what he has done for decades.

For me... it's Watch and learn.

[JBEX]

yes it is...ah yes that's the trainer!

ok batt figured it out ..thanks for the help

hopefully won't forget what I did ..may try one more to reinforce

2nd time .. got it

[JBEX]

wired field and won by 10 lengths @ 3-5 ..hand ridden near the end

while I wouldn't play #1 on top could play him underneath..like the post and he gets back in about 1/3 the time of his short layoff ..seems to always put in an effort with wide and bad trips mixed in..other for me would be #6..war front dam sire and jock good on turf..for turf paradise cost a decent amount and not up for sale with the optional condition ..jock a decent turf rider..regular works since late january and guess they may have been considering dmr for him as a 2yo which is certainly a positive in my eyes



.

ok batt figured it out ..thanks for the help

hopefully won't forget what I did ..may try one more to reinforce

[JBEX]

by army mule .. friday

aqu R7 #2 army gal (5-2)
@ 4:25

linda rice horse we looked at..returned in 6 days and stretched out off a huge win to finish distant 4th of 7.. won her debut the race before the huge win so was 2 for 2 going into that stakes..favorite here in a 6 horse field where the highest ml is 6-1 ..can't get any more balanced than that

[batt33]

incredible and sad at the same time about the derby bound horse considering how long he's ridden for..think I've passed that name (trainer) along the way ..his name is jon arnett (had to look it up)

yes it is...ah yes that's the trainer!

[JBEX]

I remember watching Kenny Tohill at Bay Meadows and Golden gate...... uhm I was still in High school... I remember a few years back he had his one chance for the derby ..but the horse passed away....... I was so so bummed for all the connections..... for a journeyman jockey to have the one chance for the dance still gets me....
I see he is at Tampa Bay right now basically riding for one trainer... James ardnt? (sp)

incredible and sad at the same time about the derby bound horse considering how long he's ridden for..think I've passed that name (trainer) along the way ..his name is jon arnett (had to look it up)

[batt33]

that's probably about 100 years of riding experience with those 3 lol ..sure they'll find a good match and hopefully he gets a shot

I remember watching Kenny Tohill at Bay Meadows and Golden gate...... uhm I was still in High school... I remember a few years back he had his one chance for the derby ..but the horse passed away....... I was so so bummed for all the connections..... for a journeyman jockey to have the one chance for the dance still gets me....
I see he is at Tampa Bay right now basically riding for one trainer... James ardnt? (sp)

[batt33]

I looked at the Army mule tonight race 8 turfway.... it seems to always have gate trouble.... with just one work out of the gate .... just wondering why there isn't more..... an STR question for sure!

[JBEX]

Probably what Lukas is thinking, With Tyler out with the ankle injury I hope they find a older gentler jockey... rafi, Mike Smith et al.... okay give Kenny Tohill a shot!!

that's probably about 100 years of riding experience with those 3 lol ..sure they'll find a good match and hopefully he gets a shot

[JBEX]

It would be awesome if there was an "Army Mule" who fit the bill for the race!

haven't tried the double quote but thanks for the tip will give it a shot later ..would've been the perfect opportunity here

finished his 3 race career with the carter handicap so appropriate distance for sure..believe his first two starts (w/o looking) were at gulfstream but will double check later..good fit for the name

didn't look at the race yet..be a pick on it for sure regardless of opinion level

[batt33]

good to hear batt..was thinking with him being about 3 lengths off the pace at the first 3 calls and them going 1:11 through 6f in his last race maybe could be looked at as a nice workout..he's got 1 less race (if you view his last that way) as the typical horse going to a final leg derby prep..obviously they were looking for a big effort in the la derby but a return in 2 weeks from a fitness perspective doesn't seem crazy to me under these circumstances

Probably what Lukas is thinking, With Tyler out with the ankle injury I hope they find a older gentler jockey... rafi, Mike Smith et al.... okay give Kenny Tohill a shot!!

[batt33]

they have the "army mule stakes " on the undercard of florida derby day ..7f listed for 4up ..pretty cool he's thought of that way

It would be awesome if there was an "Army Mule" who fit the bill for the race!

[JBEX]

they have the "army mule stakes " on the undercard of florida derby day ..7f listed for 4up ..pretty cool he's thought of that way

[JBEX]

well this is interesting.....
Caldera Update

We just got off the phone with trainer D. Wayne Lukas, who confirmed that he would like to try Caldera in next Saturday’s $1.25-million G1 Blue Grass S.at Keeneland.

He reports that Caldera looked good jogging this morning at Oaklawn Park, and it does not appear that the Louisiana Derby took much out of him. The Coach has chalked up last week’s disappointing performance to the poor start, and feels Caldera deserves one more chance to earn his way into the Kentucky Derby.

This is admittedly an unorthodox approach, but not one that surprises us—Lukas is known for running horses back on short rest. His similar handling of Seize the Grey last year obviously served us well (STG ran in the Jeff Ruby Steaks on Mar. 23 and the Blue Grass on Apr. 6 before taking the G2 Pat Day Mile on Derby Day).

The Blue Grass draws next Tuesday, Apr. 1—and Caldera will have to continue to train perfectly from now until then for us to go ahead and enter. For now, that is the plan

good to hear batt..was thinking with him being about 3 lengths off the pace at the first 3 calls and them going 1:11 through 6f in his last race maybe could be looked at as a nice workout..he's got 1 less race (if you view his last that way) as the typical horse going to a final leg derby prep..obviously they were looking for a big effort in the la derby but a return in 2 weeks from a fitness perspective doesn't seem crazy to me under these circumstances

[batt33]

well this is interesting.....
Caldera Update

We just got off the phone with trainer D. Wayne Lukas, who confirmed that he would like to try Caldera in next Saturday’s $1.25-million G1 Blue Grass S.at Keeneland.

He reports that Caldera looked good jogging this morning at Oaklawn Park, and it does not appear that the Louisiana Derby took much out of him. The Coach has chalked up last week’s disappointing performance to the poor start, and feels Caldera deserves one more chance to earn his way into the Kentucky Derby.

This is admittedly an unorthodox approach, but not one that surprises us—Lukas is known for running horses back on short rest. His similar handling of Seize the Grey last year obviously served us well (STG ran in the Jeff Ruby Steaks on Mar. 23 and the Blue Grass on Apr. 6 before taking the G2 Pat Day Mile on Derby Day).

The Blue Grass draws next Tuesday, Apr. 1—and Caldera will have to continue to train perfectly from now until then for us to go ahead and enter. For now, that is the plan

[batt33]

OK STR race was run on the tapeta so off the turf. THX for your take.

One thing I have noticed( just casual) is that the "candy ride" offspring like the tapeta....

[Easy-Rider 66]

I see what Casse or his owner paid for her, which says she is nice from that angle but I doubt I would have landed on her. She is well bred for the turf but have to think I would have not used her. JBEX is right about the turf but as he said, the current connections would probably have chased me off her especially off that last race even though not on turf.
She ran well so expect that next out as well if she stays on the grass.
Anyone who had her, a tip of the cap is deserved.

OK STR race was run on the tapeta so off the turf. THX for your take.

[str]

Hey STR when you get a chance take a look at GP R2: #6 Wellness. You can access PP's by More than ready. 15/1 ML sent off at 24/1. The Horse placed nailed at the wire by the fav. Do you see potential there or should he have been sent off at that price in your opinion? THX in advance.

I see what Casse or his owner paid for her, which says she is nice from that angle but I doubt I would have landed on her. She is well bred for the turf but have to think I would have not used her. JBEX is right about the turf but as he said, the current connections would probably have chased me off her especially off that last race even though not on turf.
She ran well so expect that next out as well if she stays on the grass.
Anyone who had her, a tip of the cap is deserved.

[Easy-Rider 66]

want to be clear on above race is was a 50K MDN CLM edits not working

[Easy-Rider 66]

if you excuse the break last out the pp line isn't bad ..figure progression first 3,a 5f turf sprint @ gulfstream is a different animal than what she'd done at woodbine ..didn't run badly in the race she was claimed out of,actually very good when you look at the bad trip she had..it's a very classy either surface pedigree geared more for distance ..sire is gun runner's sire and the dam's sire is curlin's sire..realize most won't factor that in to capping but interesting to know..trainer/jock combo a large part of why she went off that high imo

THX for your take JBEX. what jumped out to me was the work she did at MSW at WO. Now running in a 50K MDN claiming. I thew out last race as she regressed on the dirt. she ran above par for this ace in several other attempts. Good point about the sire info. thx again.

[JBEX]

Hey STR when you get a chance take a look at GP R2: #6 Wellness. You can access PP's by More than ready. 15/1 ML sent off at 24/1. The Horse placed nailed at the wire by the fav. Do you see potential there or should he have been sent off at that price in your opinion? THX in advance.

if you excuse the break last out the pp line isn't bad ..figure progression first 3,a 5f turf sprint @ gulfstream is a different animal than what she'd done at woodbine ..didn't run badly in the race she was claimed out of,actually very good when you look at the bad trip she had..it's a very classy either surface pedigree geared more for distance ..sire is gun runner's sire and the dam's sire is curlin's sire..realize most won't factor that in to capping but interesting to know..trainer/jock combo a large part of why she went off that high imo

[str]

Great points STR, one other thing I noticed was the jockey went to the whip on the far turn IDK just an all and all funky race for both,
Yes A horse to watch JBEX!

By the time the jock hit that horse, the horse was toast. He felt it ,but the energy was empty.

It was a waste of time. It had no effect except visually IMO.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR when you get a chance take a look at GP R2: #6 Wellness. You can access PP's by More than ready. 15/1 ML sent off at 24/1. The Horse placed nailed at the wire by the fav. Do you see potential there or should he have been sent off at that price in your opinion? THX in advance.

[batt33]

[QUOTE=JBEX;n29862661]in response to batt and str ..still can't multiple quote..

but do you think , to a degree anyway, that being steadied after the start (for a front running horse) along with running on a new surface might have had him a bit disoriented ..the aggresive move to the battle for the lead on the backstretch may have been the horse not wanting to be restrained due to unfamiliarity with this style of running ?


I get the feeling if this was the case you guys would've mentioned it to begin with[/QUOT

JBEX try this for mutiple quotes.... hit the first quote... find the second quote and hit the post reply button(up at the top ) it should show (2) (once you hit the button) then type in a response.... hope that helps!

[batt33]

Yeah. Your on the right track, no pun intended.

When he was steadied at the start, the horse started to run off. That is a situation where either the horse gets the upper hand or the jockey changes the horses mind. It is only for a second or two and then one or the other has the upper hand. In this case, the horse won the battle. By that I mean that the horse was indeed running off , unsettled, and burning energy like mad. So when you saw the rider go very wide into ,the turn, I am sure that what he was doing was getting away from other horses so his horse might chill out and start paying attention to the jockey instead of getting mentally all fired up and burning out. So I do understand what the rider was attempting. Unfortunately, the horse was unable to overcome it's fired up state, which could very well have been a combination of things, like new surface, ping ponged out of the gate, etc. When the Army Mule comes back into the picture early down the backside, look at his mouth and you can see all the foam from the horse grinding the bit, exerting mental energy ( my opinion, I do not know the horse well enough to know if this is normal for him or not), and is continuing to exert more energy than he should be. So when the inside horse, the 9, moves up inside to try and gain position before the hole closes into the far turn, and creates what would have been a 4 wide run around the turn for the , the AM rider says screw it, and allows his still rank horse to move up to move up into contention. And while I understand that, my frustration was from just out of the gate and what occurred that entire first 5/8ths of a mile. At no time did this horse settle.
Had he settled, I think he wins. Watching my horse burn energy at the wrong time was without a doubt the most frustrating thing to watch during a race of mine. You just can't allow that. And that's not to say the rider could have in that race but undoing the mental side of getting the horse to settle, listen and respond is so darn difficult that when you have it, you don't ever want to lose it. Without watching earlier replays, I don't know if this horse has ever settled. When I see big blinker cups, , frothing at the mouth, and a rider that can't settle his mount to chill out, I know it can be a battle. Some horses never can. That can make a potentially 20k horse worth about a third of that. I would hope he wears a shadow roll next out to try and get his head down a little so he can level off.

While I wanted to blame the rider, maybe that was unfair. Maybe this horse is just to fired up and jittery and makes the rider look bad. I have not watched previous replays of this horse or I could quickly know which one it was.

Whatever the case, it is almost impossible to get a horse away from running with their head too high, nervous, etc. without the horses cooperation. Hopefully we see that next time he runs. And the main thing will be to get the horse to relax immediately upon the break. Once he's mentally gone, he does not seem to think about settling down.

thanks str

so this race was probably over for him just after the break.. horse wouldn't settle and lots of energy was expended for a long period of time which took it's toll in the stretch ..still hung on pretty well though in spite of these things..I also felt without all this adversity good chance he might have won ..will keep an eye out for his next start

Great points STR, one other thing I noticed was the jockey went to the whip on the far turn IDK just an all and all funky race for both,
Yes A horse to watch JBEX!

[str]

thanks str

so this race was probably over for him just after the break.. horse wouldn't settle and lots of energy was expended for a long period of time which took it's toll in the stretch ..still hung on pretty well though in spite of these things..I also felt without all this adversity good chance he might have won ..will keep an eye out for his next start

All that could have cost him 8-10 lengths.

if he settles, rates and fires, I think he wins JBEX .
All that went on in that race cost him a lot.
But because he caused a lot of that himself, you can’t think he won’t cause himself problems next time as well. That’s the dilemma.

Do you see how high his head was even standing in the gate? You can’t break well with your head up in the air. Look for a big shadow roll next time. He is begging for it. That has to help if they do it.

Lets call him “the shadow roll AM “.

[JBEX]

Yeah. Your on the right track, no pun intended.

When he was steadied at the start, the horse started to run off. That is a situation where either the horse gets the upper hand or the jockey changes the horses mind. It is only for a second or two and then one or the other has the upper hand. In this case, the horse won the battle. By that I mean that the horse was indeed running off , unsettled, and burning energy like mad. So when you saw the rider go very wide into ,the turn, I am sure that what he was doing was getting away from other horses so his horse might chill out and start paying attention to the jockey instead of getting mentally all fired up and burning out. So I do understand what the rider was attempting. Unfortunately, the horse was unable to overcome it's fired up state, which could very well have been a combination of things, like new surface, ping ponged out of the gate, etc. When the Army Mule comes back into the picture early down the backside, look at his mouth and you can see all the foam from the horse grinding the bit, exerting mental energy ( my opinion, I do not know the horse well enough to know if this is normal for him or not), and is continuing to exert more energy than he should be. So when the inside horse, the 9, moves up inside to try and gain position before the hole closes into the far turn, and creates what would have been a 4 wide run around the turn for the , the AM rider says screw it, and allows his still rank horse to move up to move up into contention. And while I understand that, my frustration was from just out of the gate and what occurred that entire first 5/8ths of a mile. At no time did this horse settle.
Had he settled, I think he wins. Watching my horse burn energy at the wrong time was without a doubt the most frustrating thing to watch during a race of mine. You just can't allow that. And that's not to say the rider could have in that race but undoing the mental side of getting the horse to settle, listen and respond is so darn difficult that when you have it, you don't ever want to lose it. Without watching earlier replays, I don't know if this horse has ever settled. When I see big blinker cups, , frothing at the mouth, and a rider that can't settle his mount to chill out, I know it can be a battle. Some horses never can. That can make a potentially 20k horse worth about a third of that. I would hope he wears a shadow roll next out to try and get his head down a little so he can level off.

While I wanted to blame the rider, maybe that was unfair. Maybe this horse is just to fired up and jittery and makes the rider look bad. I have not watched previous replays of this horse or I could quickly know which one it was.

Whatever the case, it is almost impossible to get a horse away from running with their head too high, nervous, etc. without the horses cooperation. Hopefully we see that next time he runs. And the main thing will be to get the horse to relax immediately upon the break. Once he's mentally gone, he does not seem to think about settling down.

thanks str

so this race was probably over for him just after the break.. horse wouldn't settle and lots of energy was expended for a long period of time which took it's toll in the stretch ..still hung on pretty well though in spite of these things..I also felt without all this adversity good chance he might have won ..will keep an eye out for his next start

[str]

in response to batt and str ..still can't multiple quote..

but do you think , to a degree anyway, that being steadied after the start (for a front running horse) along with running on a new surface might have had him a bit disoriented ..the aggresive move to the battle for the lead on the backstretch may have been the horse not wanting to be restrained due to unfamiliarity with this style of running ?


I get the feeling if this was the case you guys would've mentioned it to begin with

Yeah. Your on the right track, no pun intended.

When he was steadied at the start, the horse started to run off. That is a situation where either the horse gets the upper hand or the jockey changes the horses mind. It is only for a second or two and then one or the other has the upper hand. In this case, the horse won the battle. By that I mean that the horse was indeed running off , unsettled, and burning energy like mad. So when you saw the rider go very wide into ,the turn, I am sure that what he was doing was getting away from other horses so his horse might chill out and start paying attention to the jockey instead of getting mentally all fired up and burning out. So I do understand what the rider was attempting. Unfortunately, the horse was unable to overcome it's fired up state, which could very well have been a combination of things, like new surface, ping ponged out of the gate, etc. When the Army Mule comes back into the picture early down the backside, look at his mouth and you can see all the foam from the horse grinding the bit, exerting mental energy ( my opinion, I do not know the horse well enough to know if this is normal for him or not), and is continuing to exert more energy than he should be. So when the inside horse, the 9, moves up inside to try and gain position before the hole closes into the far turn, and creates what would have been a 4 wide run around the turn for the , the AM rider says screw it, and allows his still rank horse to move up to move up into contention. And while I understand that, my frustration was from just out of the gate and what occurred that entire first 5/8ths of a mile. At no time did this horse settle.
Had he settled, I think he wins. Watching my horse burn energy at the wrong time was without a doubt the most frustrating thing to watch during a race of mine. You just can't allow that. And that's not to say the rider could have in that race but undoing the mental side of getting the horse to settle, listen and respond is so darn difficult that when you have it, you don't ever want to lose it. Without watching earlier replays, I don't know if this horse has ever settled. When I see big blinker cups, , frothing at the mouth, and a rider that can't settle his mount to chill out, I know it can be a battle. Some horses never can. That can make a potentially 20k horse worth about a third of that. I would hope he wears a shadow roll next out to try and get his head down a little so he can level off.

While I wanted to blame the rider, maybe that was unfair. Maybe this horse is just to fired up and jittery and makes the rider look bad. I have not watched previous replays of this horse or I could quickly know which one it was.

Whatever the case, it is almost impossible to get a horse away from running with their head too high, nervous, etc. without the horses cooperation. Hopefully we see that next time he runs. And the main thing will be to get the horse to relax immediately upon the break. Once he's mentally gone, he does not seem to think about settling down.

[JBEX]

in response to batt and str ..still can't multiple quote..

but do you think , to a degree anyway, that being steadied after the start (for a front running horse) along with running on a new surface might have had him a bit disoriented ..the aggresive move to the battle for the lead on the backstretch may have been the horse not wanting to be restrained due to unfamiliarity with this style of running ?


I get the feeling if this was the case you guys would've mentioned it to begin with

[str]

that was a hot mess of a trip to say the least and outside of the obvious..steadied just out of the gate and very wide on the turn,backstretch and far turn..sure there's a lot more to it than that str will comment on ..something after all he did how he came again in the stretch to nail 3rd


if anybody played him with the 6 and 1 they certainly weren't disappointed with the order of finish




.

I would critic that ride but I think I would get an upset stomach while typing about it.

Gotta try and keep the blood pressure under control. Lol.

[str]

All I can say is wow with the way...#2 come on mulitch was ridden.. unreal the horse ran well despite the jockey interference

Apparently, this jockey on the AM is pretty solid according to his numbers. Have to admit though, I might opt to go in the men's room for the race and just listen to the call instead of forcing myself to watch that.
Man, my eyes hurt and I am kind of speechless. Rare for me, Lol.