CAUTION --- TONY 5 DIMES TRYING to TAKE A SHOT AT PLAYERS RIGHT NOW.

[sharpcat]

Also, be clear, I'm talking about "bad lines" in general, not specific to this case. Frankly I don't know anything about golf lines at all, but I bet I can easily spot a line that is way off. It's not rocket surgery.

How exactly would you define a "bad line"? and how would you support this mathematically?

[robertg]

After browsing this place for years to hear industry news, it finally took the most retarded thread in the history of the internet by a T-4 candidate named Nobs to actually register and make a post.

Let me explain some math to you son, the reason 5 Dimes has much longer odds to win on golfers to win tournaments than other books is because THEY ARE PRICING USING A LOWER THEORETICAL HOLD. Have you ever calculated the theoretical margins for futures odds on a golf tournament (or any multiple entry futures market)? I'm making an educated guess you haven't, don't understand the concept, and wouldn't know how to calculate it even if you wanted to. By the way, i have calculated the holds with fields as large as 150 players.

5Dimes on PGA events is not only offering prices on every golfer entered, they usually have a theoretical hold somewhere around 9%-11%. Most European books are using holds around 18%-25% and Vegas obviously are thieves by jacking 40%+ holds. Places like the greek and bodog are using 15-20%+ holds on full field golf events.

So the reason your getting 100-1 on a golfer to win, when they're 60-1 everywhere else, is because THEY ARE USING A LOWER MARGIN. And they're are actually morons on this thread complaining about that? Some of you sheep that are thinking this idiot is on to some "conspiracy" need to wake up.

I've been betting on golf for 12 years. Not that that's my profession, but I love golf action, regardless if i'm playing, or watching pro's. 5dimes is the king of golf wagering. Not only discounted futures to win on PGA events, but also more plausable pools like top 10 finish, and top 5 finish. Not to mention, the European Tour, The Champions Tour, and even tours like the Nationwide, Japan, and South Africa which NOBODY else offers (the hold is quite high on Nationwide futures though).

I have ALWAYS been paid when cashing a golfer at 5Dimes, ALWAYS. And I've hit a few 100-1 + shots that were obviously shorter odds everywhere else.(once cashed 10k on a 50-1 shot for $200.) Being that I am a student of golf markets, I also see when they make obvious mistakes, which they do quite regularly ( which is natural when your putting over 700 prices out on multiple markets on 5 different tours in a 2 day span) What do I do when i see an obvious error? I call them or e-mail them to let them know so they can change it.
If there is a price that seems very generous, but not neccesarily an error, I call or e-mail to confirm the validity before i bet it.

People who bet on golf should be rejoicing that there is a 5Dimes. Believe me when I tell you, they are the most bettor friendly markets by far. And if you understood gambling, you'd realize that even at industry low 9% theoretical holds, the book will do just fine with volume.

It just infuriates me that people with no clue of what they're talking about make worthless and slanderous threads like this.

I'm glad that there is a book that offers low juice on sports like golf, and that means we as players need to protect them when they make mistakes, and not look to exploit them. And clueless posters like Nobs should shovel their brand of uneducated trash somewhere else.

good post, tony!

[lukahh]

good post, tony!

hehe.
indeed, many threads show different truth than written in his post.

[scott235]

How exactly would you define a "bad line"? and how would you support this mathematically?

Both parts of your question are irrelevant because it doesn't matter how you or I define or mathematically support what a bad line is. It only matters what the book that's offering the line does.

Bottomline: If a player sees the line that looks to be a little "too good to be true", asks the book, the player should be given a definitive answer on the spot. If the book says the line is bad, the player should post it for the benefit of the forum. (just in case the bad line happens to stay up)

I find it astounding that many on the forum find this to be a logistical nightmare.

[shari91]

If the book says the line is bad, the player should post it for the benefit of the forum. (just in case the bad line happens to stay up) I find it astounding that many on the forum find this to be a logistical nightmare.

Scott, in what situation could you see a book confirming to you a line is bad and them still hanging it after you ended the chat conversation? Don't you think if you pointed out a bad line, they'd take it down immediately to prevent themselves a massive headache in a few hours time?

This is what Ray was getting at yesterday. Once the line is pointed out, it comes down. So coming to the forum and telling everyone a bad line existed but is gone now, doesn't really benefit us at all.

[scott235]

Actually, my fellow posters, even if the forum admins do not want to put up a bad line folder or sticky, we can do this on our own. Play fair, ask the book if the line is bad, and post it in a new thread.

[boondoggle]

i'm not claiming anything except Tony is probably a very deceptive person and he is probably smart and 95% of people in this thread get their information from books and the internet. Manipulation is an art, you learn this on the street, you know this

GM,..you are dead on.

[scott235]

Scott, in what situation could you see a book confirming to you a line is bad and them still hanging it after you ended the chat conversation? Don't you think if you pointed out a bad line, they'd take it down immediately to prevent themselves a massive headache in a few hours time?

This is what Ray was getting at yesterday. Once the line is pointed out, it comes down. So coming to the forum and telling everyone a bad line existed but is gone now, doesn't really benefit us at all.

Actually, yes, I could definitely see many books avoiding even answering the question( is this a line error?), esp if you are just pointing out the line error and not betting it. I can't tell you how many times it's taken mult emails to get a clear answer to a straightforward question with many of these books. It's like pulling teeth.

[shari91]

Actually, yes, I could definitely see many books avoiding even answering the question( is this a line error?), esp if you are just pointing out the line error and not betting it. I can't tell you how many times it's taken mult emails to get a clear answer to a straightforward question with many of these books. It's like pulling teeth.

Ok, well I've never encountered that and don't recall anyone posting about that but again that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I just can't imagine how someone could avoid the question if you were to say "the best price on Betfair is +2000 and you're hanging +20000, is this a bad line?" So just to understand are you're saying you spot a line you think is off, verify with an exchange that it's indeed off, point it out to the book, they still hang it after your conversation and then you're worried they'd refuse to pay out on it if it hits so that's what will be in your thread?

[scott235]

It is abundantly clear to any fair minded and unbiased person that this is currently a situation that is being abused by many books.

If you see a line that looks to good to be true, post it. IF the book decides to take the line down or change it, there is no doubt in my mind that the thread will reflect the change.

[scott235]

Ok, well I've never encountered that and don't recall anyone posting about that but again that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. So just to understand are you're saying you spot a line you think is off, verify with an exchange that it's indeed off, point it out to the book, they still hang it after your conversation and then you're worried they'd refuse to pay out on it if it hits so you share that with the forum?

No, that is not what I am saying.

[RudyRuetigger]

any time i have pointed out differences in top 10 to top 20 odds to them, i do admit they have changed them

[shari91]

It is abundantly clear to any fair minded and unbiased person that this is currently a situation that is being abused by many books. If you see a line that looks to good to be true, post it. IF the book decides to take the line down or change it, there is no doubt in my mind that the thread will reflect the change.

This is the whole point people have been trying to make in this thread. If a line looks too good to be true to YOU, check it at an exchange. As you see, many people don't understand what constitutes a bad line. They think because it's at +10000 at one book and a couple of the other books they check has it at +7000, it's bad. Some people aren't willing to learn how to even calculate the difference between +7000 and +10000, let alone open up one more tab in their browser and see what Betfair has it at. So to them, the line must be bad. As you see in 12pgs of this thread.

Anyway, you should start your thread and see how it goes.

[boondoggle]

I did make a mistake by not carefully reading every single page of the links I posted. (I can easily admit when I make a mistake unlike many here) With that being said, I would not play at 5dimes.

Tony states that you should contact them to verify a line if you have a question. NO I SHOULD NOT. TONY SHOULD VERIFY HIS LINES.
When I buy stock in a company that is listed on wall street...I do not later get told that the price was bad and my purchased voided...

Amateur hour and it seems many except that form of service.

[scott235]

If you see a line that may be "off", post it. Even if you are wrong, at least it may prevent anyone from betting into a regretable BL situation.

[shari91]

If you see a line that may be "off", post it. Even if you are wrong, at least it may prevent anyone from betting into a regretable BL situation.

As I said, start your thread. I'll be curious to see how it goes. To be honest though, I think it'll be filled with one of 2 things if posters decide to use it: 1. People finding bad lines that are immediately changed when a book is notified thus being of no use to any conversation or 2. People not even understanding what comprises a bad line and it dissolving into a discussion like it has in here where some people will just never be willing to educate themselves before crying foul.

[scott235]

...still think it is really funny and revealing why many people hate the thought of this.

[sharpcat]

This thread is so painful to read.

Scott235,

I am not attacking you here but it is clear that you do not understand what exactly a bad line is.

Can you tell me which of these 3 markets has a bad line and explain to me how you drew your conclusion?

A) +249
+128
+231

B)+120
+349
+259

C)+1021
-290
+421

If you can not answer this question correctly and explain your answer than you really need to stop posting about bad lines.

[shari91]

...still think it is really funny and revealing why many people hate the thought of this.

It's not revealing at all. The point is - your thread is either going to be empty with crickets chirping because who cares if a line was bad and it was immediately removed or it'll be like this one, with some people never grasping what a bad line is. Where's the value there? Any time there has been what someone feels is an important bad line situation, a separate thread was started. Take a look for yourself at what those threads consisted of. If you can't be bothered to do that, just look at the links Boondoggle posted for me so you can get an idea. The only thread that even came close to being a bad line with a legitimate dispute was the baseball total that was .5 of a run off. Even then, there was an argument to be made for it being a bad line yet 5Dimes still paid.

[underthe total]

imo

if you know a line is bad then you should not bet

if you don't know what a bad line is and you bet it no harm no foul, but it should get canceled with the rest of them

if a bet does not get canceled before the game starts then the bets should be paid

if you consistently bet bad lines with a book they should and will ban you, if they do not the book if its in the offshore market will get hammered significantly hurting the books bottom line

a book should never confiscate funds

[dialup_king]

Now I'm convinced you're not being serious.

+400 on the team leading at the half is not a bad line????? Oh my.

That wasn't the bet. Before the game he bet that the knicks would both lead at halftime and win the game. It's listed in props, and sometimes a team is a bigger dog than +400 just to win the game.

[Shack]

I love 5dimes but even they are subject to mistakes.

[shari91]

That wasn't the bet. Before the game he bet that the knicks would both lead at halftime and win the game. It's listed in props, and sometimes a team is a bigger dog than +400 just to win the game.

Yes you're right. The bet was a +400 HT/FT prop bet on the Knicks. However in this case, the Knicks were a 7pt favourite with an ML of -280. +400 HT/FT is beyond a bad line.

[Dark Horse]

I love 5dimes but even they are subject to mistakes.

Tony is starting to cut himself too much slack. 5D made a clear mistake today, that he admitted to (and would discipline his soccer department for), but refused to take responsibility for. Strikes me as a guy who needs a holiday. Just getting a little too erratic over there. So far the errors at 5D had not cost my anything, but that streak ended today. He told me to get over it, after admitting to the mistake, and I took that as a sign to get out. If it's going to be like that, why continue a business relationship? This time it cost me a little. Next time it may cost me a lot. Why take the risk?

[wrongturn]

Tony is starting to cut himself too much slack. 5D made a clear mistake today, that he admitted to (and would discipline his soccer department for), but refused to take responsibility for. Strikes me as a guy who needs a holiday. Just getting a little too erratic over there. So far the errors at 5D had not cost my anything, but that streak ended today. He told me to get over it, after admitting to the mistake, and I took that as a sign to get out. If it's going to be like that, why continue a business relationship? This time it cost me a little. Next time it may cost me a lot. Why take the risk?

A price mistake? Did he say you took a shot on a bad line?

[Dark Horse]

No. Nothing like that. In the present climate of 5D bashing I'm not going to go into detail, because it would just feed the frenzy. The book made an error, Tony admitted to it and said it shouldn't have happened. Yet he insisted that I pay for that mistake, instead of calling it even, which is what he could and should have done. I know he was surprised that I took it that serious. He fully expected me to let it go. The reason I didn't is because I see a (good) guy who cuts himself too much slack. So end of business there.

[lyon804]

the attitude of tony is disturbing..

[evo34]

And it would take all of 15 minutes for an employee to manually check for this every week (rather than wait to get alerted by a customer). Or, I dunno, maybe create a macro that checks for discrepancies between winner, top10 and top 20 odds?? The problem is that this would cost them a lot more than 15 min. of labor, or a few milliseconds of Excel time. It would remove all the free options they get from making errors and only selectively honoring them. Only way they would have incentive to reduce errors would be for people to withdraw funds and take action elsewhere. This is unlikely, given the lack of credible competition, thanks to the US govt. Yes, the US govt. has created a lack of competition, which allows firms to profit from, instead of get punished by, sloppy business practices. Nice work.

any time i have pointed out differences in top 10 to top 20 odds to them, i do admit they have changed them

[gdoom]

i GUESS THAT SBR NEEDS TO KEEP SAYING THAT THEY ARE AN A+ BOOK SO WE WILL KEEP PUTTING MONEY IN OUR ACCOUNTS.

[5Dimes]

The mistake which occured which caused so many problems, "but refused to take responsibility for", was that that no soccer halftime line was posted for the Brazil vs Holland soccer friendly match. Dark Horse wanted a handout for a halftime not being posted on a soccer friendly match only shown on a spanish language broadcast to the US market. No handout was given. His full balance still awaits immediate free transfer to another operation.

[GoIrish682]

so do i play there or not??????????????

[boondoggle]

so do i play there or not??????????????

Play @ TheGreek or BetJam....best books hands down. I have placed many wagers over both sites and once, they graded incorrectly...just once and I quickly called and in 15 seconds it was taken care of without being abused by "god" aka tony. Never had a bad line at either place and withdrawals/deposits are great. I fail to understand why anyone would play anywhere else.

[evo34]

Uh, someone's misrepresenting here... Player says he was forced to "pay for" a book's mistake rather than book agreeing to "calling it even." Book says player simply wanted to get a reward for book failing to post a line on an obscure event. These are not compatible stories.

The mistake which occured which caused so many problems, "but refused to take responsibility for", was that that no soccer halftime line was posted for the Brazil vs Holland soccer friendly match. Dark Horse wanted a handout for a halftime not being posted on a soccer friendly match only shown on a spanish language broadcast to the US market. No handout was given. His full balance still awaits immediate free transfer to another operation.

[cjwatsonfan32]

yes more 5 dimes bashing...love it

[Dark Horse]

The mistake which occured which caused so many problems, "but refused to take responsibility for", was that that no soccer halftime line was posted for the Brazil vs Holland soccer friendly match. Dark Horse wanted a handout for a halftime not being posted on a soccer friendly match only shown on a spanish language broadcast to the US market. No handout was given. His full balance still awaits immediate free transfer to another operation.

I never wanted a 'handout'. Are you serious? lol I asked -on chat- for a halftime line that you agreed should have been available. I waited for that line for ten minutes. It never came. This was for a televised game between two of the world's best soccer nations... You fully agreed that the line should have been up. That's not in question. You were very unhappy with your soccer department as well. Also on record. As to the alleged handout. After seeing the first half, I wanted out of my bet, and would have gladly paid the juice to do so; with the halftime score at 0-0. This is all live, during halftime. Where is the free handout Tony? The one that got the free handout is you. Just so you understand. This is not about money, -it wasn't very much-, but about seeing eye to eye. If we can't see eye to eye there is no reason to continue doing business. If you want to be right even when you admit you're wrong, be my guest. Sweet dreams to you.