Let The Debate Begin: EVOLUTION VS CREATIONISM

[Snowball]

definitely created.
you can't get something from nothing.
there must be a prime mover from outside time and space.

[swordsandtequila]

Then what created the "creator", since you can't get something from nothing. Wheels on the bus go round and round....

[PhillyFlyers]

Then what created the "creator", since you can't get something from nothing. Wheels on the bus go round and round....

No one and nothing.

The Creator exists outside of time and space and is therefore completely unaffected by it.

He has no beginning or end.

Sort of like the mathematical equation of phi and fibonacci. No beginning or end.

[swordsandtequila]

Well that's certainly convenient. Apply that theory to everything and you have the answers you've been seeking.

[PhillyFlyers]

Well that's certainly convenient. Apply that theory to everything and you have the answers you've been seeking.

It really doesn't have anything to do with convenience. It's just the way it is.

God has no beginning or end. He is outside of space and time and is unaffected by it since He created it.

[swordsandtequila]

All righty then

[muldoon]

God has no beginning or end. He is outside of space and time and is unaffected by it since He created it.

Yet God has a gender

[PhillyFlyers]

Yet God has a gender

Christ was a man.

[Optional]

Whilst creationists keep insisting everything was created just a few thousand years ago, everything else they said must be viewed with suspicion.

That view is not from faith but the product of brainwashing.

What other ridiculous lies are they pushing on their cult followers?

[MatI]

And your point is what dikkhead?

I already said I am a creationist.

Point is that you clearly cannot think for yourself.

[Kaabee]

Whilst creationists keep insisting everything was created just a few thousand years ago, everything else they said must be viewed with suspicion.

That view is not from faith but the product of brainwashing.

What other ridiculous lies are they pushing on their cult followers?

to be fair, not all creationists believe the earth is young. just the ultra wacky "young earth creationists."

[PhillyFlyers]

Whilst creationists keep insisting everything was created just a few thousand years ago, everything else they said must be viewed with suspicion.

That view is not from faith but the product of brainwashing.

What other ridiculous lies are they pushing on their cult followers?

What is ridiculous is to think that ANYTHING could be billions of years old and still be able to function.

If anything is a cult, it is Darwinism.

[swordsandtequila]

What is ridiculous is to think that ANYTHING could be billions of years old and still be able to function.

If anything is a cult, it is Darwinism.

You mean like your god?

[chilidog]

You mean like your god?

[Optional]

What is ridiculous is to think that ANYTHING could be billions of years old and still be able to function.

If anything is a cult, it is Darwinism.

I suspect one of the reasons creationists insist on the 6000 year old stuff has to do with the belief that god created man in his own image.

But if they want to take that so literally, why is there not a problem with all men not looking exactly the same?

To me, faith is believing in what can not be known or not be understood. To be a creationist seems to fly straight in the face of that, insisting you do know these type of things.

I can't see why faith does not tell people that if we have learned that evolution plays a big part in what man has become, then god must have designed the world that way.

And quite normal that a god figure would not provide all the intricate details to the bible's authors of how they went about creation, mostly because they could not possibly understand it. Saying I created you in my image can mean many things apart from we look like gods brother.

Seems kind of simple to me.

[PhillyFlyers]

I suspect one of the reasons creationists insist on the 6000 year old stuff has to do with the belief that god created man in his own image.

But if they want to take that so literally, why is there not a problem with all men not looking exactly the same?

To me, faith is believing in what can not be known or not be understood. To be a creationist seems to fly straight in the face of that, insisting you do know these type of things.

I can't see why faith does not tell people that if we have learned that evolution plays a big part in what man has become, then god must have designed the world that way.

And quite normal that a god figure would not provide all the intricate details to the bible's authors of how they went about creation, mostly because they could not possibly understand it. Saying I created you in my image can mean many things apart from we look like gods brother.

Seems kind of simple to me.

Well, first a couple of points I'd like to address.

One, it takes faith to also believe in evolution as well. Evolution is by no means a proven theory. That's why it remains a theory.

I think also that some of the differences between creationists and evolutionists stems from the fact that there may be a considerable amount of misunderstanding between the two sides.

Secondly, just because the biblical account may be old, does not mean it's authors were unsophisticated.

In many ways, the ancients were far more advanced than we are today.

Can modern society build the Pyramids without modern day equipment like the ancients did?

Often our arrogance overtakes in thinking that somehow we are at the greatest and most advanced point in human history. Such is clearly not the case.

The ancients built things that have withstood thousands of years. Things we couldn't dream of accomplishing.

Evolution itself has far too many unanswered questions for it to be credible. The more holes and unanswered questions, the less credible it becomes.

Part of the argument for creation is not just faith alone but also that evolution leaves much to be desired as a working theory.

No one has ever witnessed an ape turning into a human. Nor has anyone ever witnessed one species transforming into a completely new one. It's akin to a belief in werewolves and such.

The fossil record also is a testament to evolution's fallacy. Not a single transitory fossil ever found. Among the millions upon million of fossils we have.

Each fossil complete and to it's own particular species wit no transformations whatsoever.

You can believe what you wish. It is your right to do so. But think about this...

If you continue to reject God in your personal life and the theory of evolution just so happens to be false....

What will the consequences for you be when it comes time to meet your Creator?

It deserves your serious consideration.

[Optional]

Well, first a couple of points I'd like to address.

One, it takes faith to also believe in evolution as well. Evolution is by no means a proven theory. That's why it remains a theory.

I think also that some of the differences between creationists and evolutionists stems from the fact that there may be a considerable amount of misunderstanding between the two sides.

Secondly, just because the biblical account may be old, does not mean it's authors were unsophisticated.

In many ways, the ancients were far more advanced than we are today.

Can modern society build the Pyramids without modern day equipment like the ancients did?

Often our arrogance overtakes in thinking that somehow we are at the greatest and most advanced point in human history. Such is clearly not the case.

The ancients built things that have withstood thousands of years. Things we couldn't dream of accomplishing.

Evolution itself has far too many unanswered questions for it to be credible. The more holes and unanswered questions, the less credible it becomes.

Part of the argument for creation is not just faith alone but also that evolution leaves much to be desired as a working theory.

No one has ever witnessed an ape turning into a human. Nor has anyone ever witnessed one species transforming into a completely new one. It's akin to a belief in werewolves and such.

The fossil record also is a testament to evolution's fallacy. Not a single transitory fossil ever found. Among the millions upon million of fossils we have.

Each fossil complete and to it's own particular species wit no transformations whatsoever.

I didn't mean to suggest we could understand the intricate details of creation any better than the ancients could.

We can't conceive infinity. Divine creation is highly likely to involve similar concepts that no human mind can conceive.

Sure, God may send his message to the authors in different terms today. Terms we could grasp better than the ancient texts. But I posit that the complex messages would still come in a simplified one liners, like I created you in my image. His image could simply mean carbon based life for all any of us can really know.

And whilst the fossil record may not provide enough definitive proof for you to accept man came from the same linage as monkeys. There is plenty of proof to support the idea of natural selection. Bacteria and virus mutation being the obvious first example.

But why cherry pick parts of the fossil record anyway? The fossil record going back a tad more than 6000 years seems to be one of the biggest issues creationists face. And I don't think you have any explanation for that?

The fossil record is there. Creationists really need to evolve their beliefs so that they are compatible with it, not just deny the bits that suit the dogma. If God made all this, then he made that too. Embrace it. Don't just deny it.

You can believe what you wish. It is your right to do so. But think about this...

If you continue to reject God in your personal life and the theory of evolution just so happens to be false....

What will the consequences for you be when it comes time to meet your Creator?

It deserves your serious consideration.

Well to be honest, this is the bit of organized religion that really does turn me off.

No god I will ever worship would threaten eternal damnation unless I show blind unthinking faith. Nor would they delegate god like powers to a bunch of men in frocks. What god would give a mere man that sort of power of everyone? Not one I would ever respect.

So ipso facto, whether I believe in a god or not, there is not one single iota of doubt in my mind that I will have to suffer eternal punishment for anything.

You should consider that. You might find it a wonderfully liberating experience to live without that dramatic threat hanging over you.

[lucullus]

Whilst creationists keep insisting everything was created just a few thousand years ago, everything else they said must be viewed with suspicion.

That view is not from faith but the product of brainwashing.

What other ridiculous lies are they pushing on their cult followers?

Does Warren Jeff ring a bell

[MatI]

This piece of shit doesnt deserve such polite responses Opti.

[ChalkyDog]

definitely created.
you can't get something from nothing.
there must be a prime mover from outside time and space.

Check out Quantum physics and mechanics.

They claim that in the Quantum world, something can indeed be created from nothing. Flashes of light have been created inside vacuum's in labs. So these flashes of light, or energy, essentially came from nothing.

Also, for a fact particle's and anti-partical's can be created from "nothing" - they need energy to create, but as I just mentioned we've already created instances where a vacuum created flashes of light, which could be all the energy that might be needed.

Also, there is Hawking's whole theory that Gravity - which is fundamental to our universe might have been able to create the energy required for the whole particle anti-particle creation.

Now, I don't understand all that shit, nor do I pretend to, nor do I want to. Hell, I don't think Hawking fully understands his whole gravity and negative energy theory.

There is a ton of faith on my part to believe science, in the same way religious people have faith in God being real.

[ChalkyDog]

What is ridiculous is to think that ANYTHING could be billions of years old and still be able to function.

If anything is a cult, it is Darwinism.

[PhillyFlyers]

I didn't mean to suggest we could understand the intricate details of creation any better than the ancients could.

We can't conceive infinity. Divine creation is highly likely to involve similar concepts that no human mind can conceive.

Sure, God may send his message to the authors in different terms today. Terms we could grasp better than the ancient texts. But I posit that the complex messages would still come in a simplified one liners, like I created you in my image. His image could simply mean carbon based life for all any of us can really know.

And whilst the fossil record may not provide enough definitive proof for you to accept man came from the same linage as monkeys. There is plenty of proof to support the idea of natural selection. Bacteria and virus mutation being the obvious first example.

But why cherry pick parts of the fossil record anyway? The fossil record going back a tad more than 6000 years seems to be one of the biggest issues creationists face. And I don't think you have any explanation for that?

The fossil record is there. Creationists really need to evolve their beliefs so that they are compatible with it, not just deny the bits that suit the dogma. If God made all this, then he made that too. Embrace it. Don't just deny it.




Well to be honest, this is the bit of organized religion that really does turn me off.

No god I will ever worship would threaten eternal damnation unless I show blind unthinking faith. Nor would they delegate god like powers to a bunch of men in frocks. What god would give a mere man that sort of power of everyone? Not one I would ever respect.

So ipso facto, whether I believe in a god or not, there is not one single iota of doubt in my mind that I will have to suffer eternal punishment for anything.

You should consider that. You might find it a wonderfully liberating experience to live without that dramatic threat hanging over you.

Again, I think there is misunderstanding here.

The bacteria and virus mutations have already been addressed in this thread. They are not examples of evolution.

Secondly, there is no cherry-picking the fossil record. The fossil record says evolution never happened.

Period.

If there is zero evidence to support your theory from the actual fossil record itself, there is no need to embrace it but instead should reject it.

Third, God doesn't want you to blindly follow or you will go to Hell.

On the contrary, His sacrifice on the Cross shows just how much He loves you. He did it so you may be saved.

That comes with a price, however.

If you deliberately and arrogantly follow your own path and make no repentance, surely you must know that would be like spitting in His face especially for the sacrifice He paid.

Surely, only you can be the loser if you choose to turn away from Him.

[Itsamazing777]

Creation. Easy. Only loony libs believe in evolution. For the people saying it sounds crazy for a God to create everything well so does a monkey turning into a man....... And the Big Bang? Really? Something has to cause it.

[swordsandtequila]

Again, I think there is misunderstanding here.

The bacteria and virus mutations have already been addressed in this thread. They are not examples of evolution.

Secondly, there is no cherry-picking the fossil record. The fossil record says evolution never happened.

Period.

If there is zero evidence to support your theory from the bible itself, there is no need to embrace it but instead should reject it.

Third, God doesn't want you to blindly follow or you will go to Hell.

On the contrary, His sacrifice on the Cross shows just how much He loves you. He did it so you may be saved.

That comes with a price, however.

If you deliberately and arrogantly follow your own path and make no repentance, surely you must know that would be like spitting in His face especially for the sacrifice He paid.

Surely, only you can be the loser if you choose to turn away from Him.

Sums it up nicely.

[chilidog]

Creation. Easy. Only loony libs believe in evolution. For the people saying it sounds crazy for a God to create everything well so does a monkey turning into a man....... And the Big Bang? Really? Something has to cause it.

...

Monkeys never turned into humans. Go back to your coloring book and naptime.

[chilidog]

If you continue to reject God in your personal life and the theory of evolution just so happens to be false....

What will the consequences for you be when it comes time to meet your Creator?

Sounds like a rather insecure fella, eh? Creates humans, then tells humans that we gotta tell him how awesome he is all the freakin time, and if humans don't tell him all the time how much they need him and how he's just the greatest thing ever, then he's gonna throw them in fire to burn and suffer for freakin eternity. Cool guy to know, I tell you what.

[PAULYPOKER]

If this same debate was held at a round table, in a conference room, with all you in this thread who participated..

Would there be blood?

Who's side would TRY to draw this blood?

The answer to these questions will show exactly what side is SEVERELY lacking confidence in their "belief" system..

Remember,belief is the key word here....

[6thtime]

The world is flat.
Fukk the Darwinists and the Spherists that try to tell me otherwise.
When I look at an open road, as far as my eyes can see, the road is flat.
It doesn't bend.
And when I look at a map of the world, it's flat.
Fukking Hollywood trying to convince me otherwise.
The world is flat!!

[Bill_Hicks]

Why are people still arguing with this fairy-tale believing nut job?

Watch FOX news for more than 5 mins and, well , never watch again. These people graduate HS?

[Bill_Hicks]

Check out Quantum physics and mechanics.

They claim that in the Quantum world, something can indeed be created from nothing. Flashes of light have been created inside vacuum's in labs. So these flashes of light, or energy, essentially came from nothing.

Also, for a fact particle's and anti-partical's can be created from "nothing" - they need energy to create, but as I just mentioned we've already created instances where a vacuum created flashes of light, which could be all the energy that might be needed.

Also, there is Hawking's whole theory that Gravity - which is fundamental to our universe might have been able to create the energy required for the whole particle anti-particle creation.

Now, I don't understand all that shit, nor do I pretend to, nor do I want to. Hell, I don't think Hawking fully understands his whole gravity and negative energy theory.

There is a ton of faith on my part to believe science, in the same way religious people have faith in God being real.

Spot on with quantum physics.

[PhillyFlyers]

Why are people still arguing with this fairy-tale believing nut job?

Watch FOX news for more than 5 mins and, well , never watch again. These people graduate HS?

You're the same dikkhead that tried to steal my thread subject not too long ago.

Fukkin phaggot. Another moron standing in the welfare lines with all the other Obama supporters.

[JayHorne3]

Check out Quantum physics and mechanics.

They claim that in the Quantum world, something can indeed be created from nothing. Flashes of light have been created inside vacuum's in labs. So these flashes of light, or energy, essentially came from nothing.

Also, for a fact particle's and anti-partical's can be created from "nothing" - they need energy to create, but as I just mentioned we've already created instances where a vacuum created flashes of light, which could be all the energy that might be needed.

Also, there is Hawking's whole theory that Gravity - which is fundamental to our universe might have been able to create the energy required for the whole particle anti-particle creation.

Now, I don't understand all that shit, nor do I pretend to, nor do I want to. Hell, I don't think Hawking fully understands his whole gravity and negative energy theory.

There is a ton of faith on my part to believe science, in the same way religious people have faith in God being real.

Spot on with quantum physics.

I would like to tackle this with an alternative view. My biggest problem with this theory is our interpretation of nothing. "Nothing" to scientist in our modern day may not in fact be nothing as science/technology progresses. This goes into the Abiogenesis theory in which life evolved from non-living matter. The problem with this theory is that everything we know in the scientific and empirical world to be fact, states that all living things evolve from living organisms. Like Chalky said, there are experiments that suggest Abiogenesis is real just like with quantum vaccums. However, just 50 years ago, scientist believed that maggots and frogs were the product of abiogenesis. Of course now we know otherwise because of science and continuing intelligence based off our own technology. Therefore, I have to ask the question will we not understand one day how light in a quantum vaccum is produced through the evolution of science? Because if we do, everything that has been scientifcally proven in the modern world still traces back to a biogenetic origin.

[Kermit]

So if you believe in the bible and what it says, then you also must believe that dinosaurs never exited.

It's either one or the other. I can at least go to a museum and see a dinosaur.

[JayHorne3]

So if you believe in the bible and what it says, then you also must believe that dinosaurs never exited.

It's either one or the other. I can at least go to a museum and see a dinosaur.

That is a very weak argument. The vast majority of Christians believe in Dinosaurs how can you not? Conservative early world creationist take the book of Genesis literal in regards to creation compared to a regular 6 day "24" hour period. However there are many other beliefs that expand that range. I do not think you can take the verse literal, how is the writer of Genesis able to describe the creation in a human sense surrounding a non-human series of events? The Bible is a book of historical claims. We know many prophecies that have been concluded by historians and archaeologist. But does the entire message of the Bible rely on the fact that Genesis is a literal description of the creation of the universe? I dont believe so. I believe the Bible should be more focused around the multiple historical claims of the death and resurrection of Jesus than any other aspect of the Bible. No other time throughout history has there ever been a historical claim about a man rising from the dead, yet there are several in the Bible of whom which the writers were persecuted and some actually killed for preaching this message. If you want to debate the Bible, I think you have to start at the core message which is Jesus and then move outwards. Not vice versa

[Kermit]

The Bible is a book of historical claims.

That is the key word. None of which have any factual evidence to support.