Let The Debate Begin: EVOLUTION VS CREATIONISM

[PhillyFlyers]

I'm a creationist.

I want to make this thread as a place that both creationists and evolutionists can politely debate the origins of man. We can ask each other questions and go back and forth. In the end, I want us to be able to come to a general consensus that we can all agree on.

I'll start with this.

Questions to Evolutionists:

1. Most evolutionists accept the big bang theory for the origins of the universe and of life here on earth, so my question to them is this....

How did a mixture of lifeless chemicals spontaneously organize themselves into the first living cell?

[Andy117]

Do you believe in the Genesis version of creation?

[billyhoyle35]

Can i believe in both?

[PhillyFlyers]

Do you believe in the Genesis version of creation?

Andy

Yes I do. I believe when Genesis states that God made the world in 6 days that it meant 6, 24 hour days.

Incidentally the more we find out about the universe the more the Bible is proved correct.

For example, back in the old days, it was thought that the universe was shrinking.

In fact, we now know it is expanding.

And what does the Bible say about an expanding universe?.....

Isaias (Isaiah) 44:24
Thus saith the Lord thy redeemer, and thy maker, from the womb: I am the Lord, that make all things, that alone stretch out the heavens, that establish the earth, and there is none with me.



Isaias (Isaiah) 51:13
And thou hast forgotten the Lord thy maker, who stretched out the heavens, and founded the earth: and thee hast been afraid continually all the day at the presence of his fury who afflicted thee, and had prepared himself to destroy thee: where is now the fury of the oppressor?


Isaias (Isaiah) 42:5
Thus saith the Lord God that created the heavens, and stretched them out: that established the earth, and the things that spring out of it: that giveth breath to the people upon it, and spirit to them that tread thereon.

[PhillyFlyers]

Can i believe in both?

Pretty tough to see how you could.

If you believe that man came from apes through an evolutionary process, then there is no way you could believe that a Creator God made man.

They can't reconcile. It's one or the other.

[Nut_Flopper]

[PhillyFlyers]

I watched it. It was a good debate.

Notice how Nye never answers any of Ham's questions.

[muldoon]

1. Most evolutionists accept the big bang theory for the origins of the universe and of life here on earth, so my question to them is this....

How did a mixture of lifeless chemicals spontaneously organize themselves into the first living cell?

What's funny is that you want to debate creationism vs. evolutionism - yet start with a question about the big bang.

Creationism requires no proof. Just a belief is a sky god who set the wheels in motion and all according to a plan that only the creator can truly know.

Your first question asks for people to travel back billions of years to witness something and provide proof.

You'd like the scientific method to exist in a time travel vacuum only for one side, yet none of these scientific standards are required of yours. Yours is a based on faith - which is just societally accepted word for "no way to actually prove it - but I believe it anyway".

Bacterial resistance to antibiotics is one of the simplest ways to witness evolution in almost real time.

[lucullus]

What's funny is that you want to debate creationism vs. evolutionism - yet start with a question about the big bang.

Creationism requires no proof. Just a belief is a sky god who set the wheels in motion and all according to a plan that only the creator can truly know.

Your first question asks for people to travel back billions of years to witness something and provide proof.

You'd like the scientific method to exist in a time travel vacuum only for one side, yet none of these scientific standards are required of yours. Yours is a based on faith - which is just societally accepted word for "no way to actually prove it - but I believe it anyway".

Bacterial resistance to antibiotics is one of the simplest ways to witness evolution in almost real time.

Commenting on your last line - I have to say a few things. One being that evolution is a scientific fact, you stating one example, but there being simple and common, every day example's of evolution. This does not mean that evolution created the races of the earth, nor does it mean that creationism did so. This guy also give's a very narrow introduction to the topic, because he has no thoroughly examined the subject. There are many different scientific opinion's on this matter.

This is just PhillyFlyers trying to pump up his religion's quickly dying status using distorted science and statements, that is what they do. No way in Hell that the christian god that commits mass murder since his arrival on earth, tortures for eternity, and other horrendous thing's would create the good men who have created civilization as we know it.

Let me just remind you again that every one here think's you are a complete ass. All this religious stuff is being replaced by science. Science is truly spiritual and that is why your Church has always crushed it with brute force. Philly you are dying a slow death and I am happy about that, I only wish it were quicker.

Philly you are nastier than a piece of dog shit.

[PhillyFlyers]

What's funny is that you want to debate creationism vs. evolutionism - yet start with a question about the big bang.

Creationism requires no proof. Just a belief is a sky god who set the wheels in motion and all according to a plan that only the creator can truly know.

Your first question asks for people to travel back billions of years to witness something and provide proof.

You'd like the scientific method to exist in a time travel vacuum only for one side, yet none of these scientific standards are required of yours. Yours is a based on faith - which is just societally accepted word for "no way to actually prove it - but I believe it anyway".

Bacterial resistance to antibiotics is one of the simplest ways to witness evolution in almost real time.

I disagree.

Evolution, being a theory, is the one that requires proof. You can come to a Creationist conclusion just by plain logic and nothing more.

Evolution requires impossible twists and turns that are so mind boggling it shatters any notion of credibility.

Bacterial resistance is not proof of evolution. I think this explains it best...

Antibiotic-Resistant Bacteria

Antibiotics are natural substances secreted by bacteria and fungi to kill other bacteria that are competing for limited nutrients. (The antibiotics used to treat people today are typically derivatives of these natural products.) Scientists are dismayed to discover that some bacteria have become resistant to antibiotics through various alterations, or mutations, in their DNA.
Hospitals have become a breeding ground for antibiotic resistant bacteria. These bacteria proliferate in an environment filled with sick people who have poor immune systems and where antibiotics have eliminated competing bacteria that are not resistant.
Bacteria that are resistant to modern antibiotics have even been found in the frozen bodies of people who died long before those antibiotics were discovered or synthesized.

History of Antibiotic Resistance

Antibiotics were first discovered through a providential experiment by Alexander Fleming in 1928. His work eventually led to the large-scale production of penicillin from the mold Penicillium notatum in the 1940s. As early as the late 1940s resistant strains of bacteria began to appear. Currently, it is estimated that more than 70% of the bacteria that cause hospital-acquired infections are resistant to at least one of the antibiotics used to treat them.

Antibiotic resistance continues to expand for a multitude of reasons, including over-prescription of antibiotics by physicians, non-completion of prescribed antibiotic treatments by patients, use of antibiotics in animals as growth enhancers (primarily by the food industry), increased international travel, and poor hospital hygiene.

How Do Bacteria Become Resistant?

Bacteria can gain resistance through two primary ways:
1. By mutation, and
2. By using a built-in design feature to swap DNA (called horizontal gene transfer)—bacteria share resistance genes.
An antibiotic kills a bacterial cell by simply disrupting a critical function. This is achieved in the cell in much the same way that a saboteur can cause a massive jetliner to crash by simply cutting the hydraulic lines.

Antibiotic resistance of bacteria only leads to a loss of functional systems. Evolution requires a gain of functional systems for bacteria to evolve into man.

The antibiotic binds to a protein so that the protein cannot function properly. The normal protein is usually involved in copying the DNA, making proteins, or making the bacterial cell wall—all important functions for the bacteria to grow and reproduce.
If the bacteria have a mutation in the DNA which codes for one of those proteins, the antibiotic cannot bind to the altered protein; and the mutant bacteria survive. In the presence of antibiotics, the process of natural selection will occur, favoring the survival and reproduction of the mutant bacteria. (The mutant bacteria are better able to survive in the presence of the antibiotic and will continue to cause illness in the patient.)
Although the mutant bacteria can survive well in the hospital environment, the change has come at a cost. The altered protein is less efficient in performing its normal function, making the bacteria less fit in an environment without antibiotics. Typically, the non-mutant bacteria are better able to compete for resources and reproduce faster than the mutant form.
Let’s look at a famous example to help clarify this. During the anthrax scare shortly after the September 11, 2001, attacks in the U.S., Ciprofloxacin (Cipro) was given to potential victims. Cipro belongs to a family of antibiotics known as quinolones, which bind to a bacterial protein called gyrase, decreasing the ability of the bacteria to reproduce. This allows the body’s natural immune defenses to overtake the infectious bacteria as they are reproducing at a slower rate. Quinolone-resistant bacteria have mutations in the genes encoding the gyrase protein. The mutant bacteria survive because the Cipro cannot bind to the altered gyrase.
This comes at a cost as quinolone-resistant bacteria reproduce more slowly.^{, ,} Resistance to this family of antibiotics is becoming a major problem with one type of bacteria which causes food poisoning. This bacteria increased its resistance to quinolones 10-fold in just five years.

Bacteria can also become antibiotic resistant by gaining mutated DNA from other bacteria. Unlike you and me, bacteria can swap DNA. But this still is not an example of evolution in action. No new DNA is generated (a requirement for molecules-to-man evolution), it is just moved around. It’s like taking money from your left pocket and putting it into your right pocket—it doesn’t make you wealthier. This mechanism of exchanging DNA is necessary for bacteria to survive in extreme or rapidly changing environments like a hospital (or like those found shortly after the Flood).

What Does It Really Prove?

The mechanisms of mutation and natural selection aid bacteria populations in becoming resistant to antibiotics. However, mutation and natural selection also result in bacteria with defective proteins that have lost their normal functions.
Evolution requires a gain of functional systems for bacteria to evolve into man—functioning arms, eyeballs, and a brain, to name a few.
Mutation and natural selection, thought to be the driving forces of evolution, only lead to a loss of functional systems. Therefore, antibiotic resistance of bacteria is not an example of evolution in action but rather variation within a bacterial kind. It is also a testimony to the wonderful design God gave bacteria, master adapters and survivors in a sin-cursed world.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n3/antibiotic-resistance-of-bacteria

[PhillyFlyers]

Commenting on your last line - I have to say a few things. One being that evolution is a scientific fact, you stating one example, but there being simple and common, every day example's of evolution. This does not mean that evolution created the races of the earth, nor does it mean that creationism did so. This guy also give's a very narrow introduction to the topic, because he has no thoroughly examined the subject. There are many different scientific opinion's on this matter.

This is just PhillyFlyers trying to pump up his religion's quickly dying status using distorted science and statements, that is what they do. No way in Hell that the christian god that commits mass murder since his arrival on earth, tortures for eternity, and other horrendous thing's would create the good men who have created civilization as we know it.

Let me just remind you again that every one here think's you are a complete ass. All this religious stuff is being replaced by science. Science is truly spiritual and that is why your Church has always crushed it with brute force. Philly you are dying a slow death and I am happy about that, I only wish it were quicker.

Philly you are nastier than a piece of dog shit.

Shut the fukk up moron bitch.

Go back to the hole you crawled out of.

[innovation]

philly u defo a christian with a mouth like that

[Stocks]

Imagine if there was no religion and there was a study on where we came from. Everyone would say evolution and they would think a magic man in the sky creating everything would be crazy. Now if you want to say the power of the universe is god or the power of nature is god then that would be sensible but to say there is some being out there that created everything is absurd.

[Kaabee]

Pretty tough to see how you could.

If you believe that man came from apes through an evolutionary process, then there is no way you could believe that a Creator God made man.

They can't reconcile. It's one or the other.

One thing that both sides agree on is that the bolded statement is not true.

[lucullus]

So PhillyFlyer, in responding to muldoon, completely denies his evidence and slanders it. He then proceeds to copy and paste some thing. Notice how all of this thread's are copy and paste's plus linked video's from youtube. This guy is a mental midget that has nothing better to do than create thread's of thing's he is slightly interested in, but has little understanding of any of it.

[RavenUnleashes]

Personally I think that if you have a religion and need someone else to believe so that you can validate it you're annoying. Have a Beliefs....believe in them, but don't shove them down other peoples throat. No body has it all down as far as religion goes, I mean Adam had 2 wives according to history.

[Pareto]

Questions to Evolutionists:

1. Most evolutionists accept the big bang theory for the origins of the universe and of life here on earth, so my question to them is this....

How did a mixture of lifeless chemicals spontaneously organize themselves into the first living cell?

1000 years ago you would have believed the God(s) caused the lightning, hurricanes and other weather phenomena. Now we understand meteorology, so most sane persons dont believe that anymore.

1000 years ago you would have believed the God(s) caused diseases such as plagues etc. Now we understand microbiology, so most sane persons dont believe that anymore.

To answer your question. We dont know yet. But just because science doesnt have the answer to everything yet, is no reason to say it was done by magic.

[rkelly110]

I believe in a god and his son, but also believe in evolution that was sparked by comets and asteroids that slammed
into the earth bringing the basic foundations for life.

Our earth is in a perfect orbit around the sun. Perfect spin on it's axis with a molten core. Just one degree either way,
there would be no life as we know it.

Us humans are the only being on the planet that is self aware. Imagine yourself 10,000 years ago waking up out of
your cave and saying what a wonderful morning, look at the sun warming our bodies, the rain bringing our water.
Being self aware and knowing you didn't bring the sun and the rain, there must be a higher power. That is where
the gods were created.

Until science can debunk a life after death, I'll believe in a higher power, Jesus Christ and an ever lasting life.
I have my proof, look around, you will find yours.

[muldoon]

I believe in a god and his son, but also believe in evolution that was sparked by comets and asteroids that slammed
into the earth bringing the basic foundations for life.

Our earth is in a perfect orbit around the sun. Perfect spin on it's axis with a molten core. Just one degree either way,
there would be no life as we know it.

Us humans are the only being on the planet that is self aware.

Where is your proof that 1 degree would eliminate all possibility of life? By all estimates, there is a "zone" of millions of miles which the Earth could exist within and still maintain life (one only need to look our less than circular orbit)

The axis of the Earth just recently shifted - yet somehow life continues.

How are you sure with certainty that other species are not self aware?

Billions have died. Zero proof of life after death. Yet you want science to disprove something that has yet to be proven in any testable fashion?

[rkelly110]

Life as we know it. Any closer to the sun, we would burn up, any further we would freeze.

Yes, our orbit isn't circular. During the northern hemispheres winter we are closest to the sun, during the summer
we are furtherest.

The earth axis shifting might be why there are no longer dinosaurs. Bad for them, good for us.

Don't want to answer the self awareness without sounding more stupid than I already wrote.

I can only go by what people who have died said when they came back to life, the bible's rendition
of Christ coming back and watching those shows about mediums, which is more than what science
has proven thus far. (yeah, I'm gullible)

[muldoon]

The earth axis shifting might be why there are no longer dinosaurs. Bad for them, good for us.

The axis shifted in 2011

[rkelly110]

4 inches? Might mess up GPS devices if anything.

[muldoon]

4 inches? Might mess up GPS devices if anything.

Moved the coast of Japan 8 feet. Also altered the spin of the earth.

Are you and your laughing emoticons able to look up in your bible and say how much of a larger shift is required, or how much of the spin must be altered for it to kill all life?

I mean, it's not the perfect # it was before right?

[pronk]

1000 years ago you would have believed the God(s) caused the lightning, hurricanes and other weather phenomena. Now we understand meteorology, so most sane persons dont believe that anymore.

1000 years ago you would have believed the God(s) caused diseases such as plagues etc. Now we understand microbiology, so most sane persons dont believe that anymore.

To answer your question. We dont know yet. But just because science doesnt have the answer to everything yet, is no reason to say it was done by magic.

Most of your so called "scientists " can't even explain without googling 12 stars on your silly eu flag let alone origins of h2o on earth. So, don't let those stupid scientists decide your own destiny.
Think very hard and make your own choice: reject Almighty God and spend eternity in hell or except Jesus as your Lord and Savior and receive everlasting life.

You decide!

[Footy4Jesus]

Obviously from my name I am Christian. I haven't always been. I was raised that way, but I fell away from believing in God in highschool and was agnostic/atheist for over 10 years. Those years were some horrible times living for myself. Yet deep inside me, I think its in everyone, knows there's something bigger to life. Theres things in life that science cannot and will never be able to explain. Quit buying the science just doesn't have the answer yet garbage. There will always be things left unanswered, the world is infinite. I remember in astronomy class looking at just how big our sun is compared to the earth, then just how small our sun is compared to another star, and just how small that star is compared to this other star, and just how small that star is compared.... on and on and on. I realized there has to be a god. Everything in the universe is in such order our mind cannot fathom every detail.

I have been going to a prestigious university for 6 years. I love to learn. But what I cant stand is professors who love to bash Christianity any chance they get. It often has nothing to do with the subject material either, but as long as they can get their little one-liners in. But I look at it objectively. Why do they do this? You can see the smirk and arrogance when they do. I have to tell you, college is a great place to learn alot about this world we live in. But its not everything. Think about it. What are all these life accomplishments: getting a degree, lots of money, a beautiful wife and family, a great job, what is all this going to mean once you die?? Why should we bother going to school and get a nice job anyways if we cant keep it but for this short life on earth that could be taken from you before tomorrow or even before you get the goals your working on accomplished? The thing that makes sense to me is that there is something after this life, something else to it. Some reason why we are all here.

Do you remember anything before you were born? No. But the study of history shows us that there was a world before you. And there will still be things going on once you die. Can I prove there is a heaven? No. Can I prove to you there is a God? No. And I wont try to. What it all boils down to is having faith. It seems silly to many and I get mocked all the time, but Ill ask you if the notion of God,Jesus, Heaven seems so ridiculous to you then shouldn't the fact that we even exist here on this earth in the first place, that I'm here typing this out and your sitting there reading it, how everything around you is here can be felt and touched, the concept of time, and EVERYTHING ELSE... doesn't this life and world seem ridiculous too?? It is. But through all of that improbability we are here.

That all being said, the debate between creationism and evolution is stupid. I've argued this many times with people who don't think outside the box. Why cant there be both? Why must one pick a side, one or the other? Its stupid that's not how life works all the time.

Heres my take: evolution is real. There is too much compelling evidence to support it that it DOES make Christians look dumb to argue otherwise. But this doesnt mean there is no God. If you do believe in God, there shouldnt be a problem believing that evolution is simply the works of God. If he is supposedly all powerful, is this too much for him to be able to create? creatures that can change over time? When you come to accept the depth of Gods awe and power and might, its not hard to believe that evolution could be gods creation.

Now on the big bang theory. There is also compelling evidence that the universe as we know it came from a single point of origin. If you study astronomy, light years and how things in the universe are drifting apart, its pretty convincing that the world came from this single point of origin. In the bible, God said let there be light. Why cant the big bang be this biblical event? I mean, once he said it, it would of had to originate from somewhere. The God answer explains what big-bang theorists cant: So what made the big bang? You cant make matter from nothing, so it would of had to come from somewhere. And when did it happen? Was there even a concept of time before it? The more I think about it , God just makes sense. He made us in his image, so we are at such a higher level than other animals, but we have limited capabilities. We are not God. We didn't create ourselves. So what or who did? And we look a lot like other apes, but if you look at the animal kingdom, there are slight variations in animals between different classes. We look similar in many ways, but also so different than chimps and bonobos. There is no other animal like us. Not even close. When you look at the world around you, the stuff we created like houses, cars, laws, institutions, TV, technology, concepts of math,philosophy, science and the arts, is there any other animal that does these things? No. We are truly a unique species set apart from the others and theres plenty of evidence to support that if you just open your eyes.

I know this was long and drawn out and my grammar isn't the best because I was typing this out quickly and not proofread for errors like a midterm paper, but Ill end with this: Science is cool, its awesome, and I absolutely love studying it. But I also know it isn't everything and doesn't have all of life's answers like many scientists would have you believe. Science is just a creation of God- he would of had to make all these principles that are the foundation of science because if there were none the world would be in chaos and not in order, or it may not even exist at all! Remember that many concepts are only theories and many have been proven wrong over time. There is nothing unbiblical about believing in science. If your that weak in your faith that thinking about evolution makes your squirm you seriously need to lighten up and think for yourself. The same thing goes for people who call religion a joke. Many atheists have never even read the bible. Now how can you make an opinion about something that you haven't even read? Go ahead and read it with scrutiny. Be a critic. I did, and Ill admit I thought it was a load of crap at first. But I stuck to it and wanted to read the whole thing just to say I did and to give me a foundation for not believing. But the more I read, I started to realize how theres so much good stuff in there you can apply to your life. Seriously even if you rejected the idea of Jesus and God but you followed the life the bible outlines for you to live, you would have to admit itd be a pretty good life. Is it easy? No. We all want to do what we want to do and dont want to follow rules anymore now that we are adults. But this life is not your own. Quit being a disgruntled atheist with no purpose in life, take the chip off your shoulder and just let go. Quit being so hard hearted and learn to be obedient. Have some faith for once and believe in something. Just because you cant see it doesnt mean its not real. You cant see the air you breathe, but are you going to deny its existence too?

[lucullus]

Footy4Jesus is, like a typical religious nut, operating on lies. Technically, he is being deceitful in his posts - same as what PhillyFlyers and other religious nuts do. Science has already proven and experimented with the "invisible".

This quote, by Thomas Jefferson, shed's light on the subject;

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

[The Kraken]

Evolution has been beyond proven, however it cannot happen in a lifetime. Nor within a few generations. But a multitude of generations and natural selection at work. Only over the course of many generations will evolution take place. It's a simple concept that really doesn't need proof either but can be understood with simple logic. Nature is just selecting the traits of individuals that best suit the environment. Over time, those individuals reproduce more often. Eventually, the population evolves to favor that trait.

Creationism is a fairy tale, in my mind. Where there are gaps in proof or logic, there is faith. There must be faith, it's essential. And I just don't have it.

[Dutch]

There is no debate. Not really.

Too believe in Genesis is to believe in a talking snake, dangerous pieces of fruit and incest.

[Footy4Jesus]

Footy4Jesus is, like a typical religious nut, operating on lies. Technically, he is being deceitful in his posts - same as what PhillyFlyers and other religious nuts do. Science has already proven and experimented with the "invisible".

Its funny how Im willing to debate civilly with you and others, but you must resort to name-calling. I respect your opinions, they also used to be my own so I know where you are coming from. Thomas Jefferson had a lot of great ideas and was a very intelligent man. Well known for his philosophy, probably one of the greatest philosophers that held the presidential office. This quote is often taken out of context by atheists though. Atheists commonly claim that Jefferson was an Atheist, but he wasnt. He was an Episcopalian who converted to Deism. He believed in God.

In that quote, he is stating that the spiritual world is not immaterial but rather material. He never says that it does not actually exist.

[Andy117]

Most of your so called "scientists " can't even explain without googling 12 stars on your silly eu flag let alone origins of h2o on earth. So, don't let those stupid scientists decide your own destiny.
Think very hard and make your own choice: reject Almighty God and spend eternity in hell or except Jesus as your Lord and Savior and receive everlasting life.

You decide!

Can't embrace science and religion at the same time? Couldn't evolution be directed by the hand of God?

[lucullus]

Just like PhillyFlyer, this guy ignores any rationale or evidence and continue's to to distort thing's and misinterpret them to his audience. No wonder every one say's never to argue with a religious nut At the end of the day, these guy's are spiritual criminals and should be treated like so.

[Footy4Jesus]

A common misconception is that Atheists have higher IQs than those of faith. I think its irrelevant. There are brilliant minds on both sides, which is testimony to how perplexing this question of a higher power really is. If it was so cut and dry, we wouldn't continue to be debating this for the last few millenniums.

Brilliant atheists that come to mind: Stephen Hawking, Crick and Watson, Richard Dawkins, Sigmund Freud

Brilliant theists that come to mind: Copernicus, Thomas Aquinas, Francis Bacon, Galileo, Descartes,Newton

Albert Einstein and even Charles Darwin himself did not deny the existence of God.

[Dutch]

reject Almighty God and spend eternity in hell or except Jesus as your Lord and Savior and receive everlasting life.

You decide!

Almighty god wasn't mighty enough to keep satan in check. Almighty god was then outsmarted by a snake.

Almighty god sounds like a fuking jerk off.

He creates us only to watch and judge us, except that he already knows what we're going to do. Creepy dude.

[Dutch]

Albert Einstein and even Charles Darwin himself did not deny the existence of God.

They were smart enough to know you don't have to deny the existence of a 'creator' in order to believe in evolution.

I never heard about Einstein looking for Noahs arc or talking about forbidden fruit.

[lucullus]

Its funny how Im willing to debate civilly with you and others, but you must resort to name-calling. I respect your opinions, they also used to be my own so I know where you are coming from. Thomas Jefferson had a lot of great ideas and was a very intelligent man. Well known for his philosophy, probably one of the greatest philosophers that held the presidential office. This quote is often taken out of context by atheists though. Atheists commonly claim that Jefferson was an Atheist, but he wasnt. He was an Episcopalian who converted to Deism. He believed in God.

In that quote, he is stating that the spiritual world is not immaterial but rather material. He never says that it does not actually exist.

It's funny how you civilly support a "god" that is the biggest sadistic person ever known to man. Audience, you can dive into the bible and see the grotesque passages and other horror stories in it. All of the massacres directed by god. The massacres of gentiles by the jews. All of this fake history of the jewish people.

Thomas Jefferson had a lot of great ideas? A large amount more than that, loon.

Audience, notice how this man excludes the last part of Thomas statement in the quote we are referring to above;

"At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is."

What Thomas say's here, in plain english, is that the Judaic religion's, be it Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, all the god/jesus bull crap - is and never will be spiritual. Spiritual meaning to enhance your personal power, to promote your health and your future. Science has provided this. If you need a tutor or father figure in your life, there are real men that can help you, unlike the fake god/jewsus.

The fact is that the tenants of there religion tell you to be poor, worship a sadist, be a jew's slave, race mix, and a large assortment of unnatural things. The fact is that you can really enhance your inner-body through directing energy with your mind, but there are many other ways. It is evolution. Evolving your inner body.

The fact is, gentlemen, that religion was hijacked by the jewish people (commonly accepted as the creators of the god/jewsus religions) to make servile men and women there's to direct. Old religion was exactly what i have said above, evolution of the inner body to become a god your self.

For hundreds of years they have shoved lie's and war propaganda about our ancestors true religion and culture. You know what? It worked, jews are the richest and most powerful - for now.