Let The Debate Begin: EVOLUTION VS CREATIONISM

[muldoon]

However, I challenge you to provide evidence towards anything in the bible to be untrue. Many have tried. All have failed.

Which type of proof would suffice for things like the story of Noah's ark? The fact that Noah was over 900 when he died? Logic reasoning isn't enough for you?

I've asked this before of other believers of the bible who claim they truly want a rational debate.

What proof would I have to provide you to make you admit that you're wrong and that God doesn't exist?

[muldoon]

However, I challenge you to provide evidence towards anything in the bible to be untrue. Many have tried. All have failed.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/13/the-old-testaments-made-up-camels-are-a-problem-for-zionism/

[Seaweed]

The only reasons that anybody worships the Deity that they do are:

1. What period in time they happened to have been born
2. What geographic meridien they happened to be residing
3. Cultural influences

That's it. How can any intelligent person not realize this? One can argue their chosen religion/Deity until they are blue in the face, but it still all boils down to the 3 options I just listed.

And when a person finally comes to terms with why they actually believe what they do, and they still continue to do so, well, there-in lies their true level of intelligence.

How does this prove that God does not exist? It does not. Just because some people are born into a culture and believe in a different God, does not prove God does not exist.

God can save people who seek after him, with a sincere heart and grace, that through no fault on their own have not been presented with the information.

[swordsandtequila]

Just to put my 2 cents in. There have been very intelligent people who feel the same way you guys do who didn't believe
in the almighty. They died and were brought back by science. They told an unbelievable story about the afterlife. They
are believers now. You tube testimonies are in the hundreds. Maybe check them out for the sake of an argument?

Take a hit of acid and you'll think you can fly. Biology, chemistry, dream, hallucination, wishful thinking. Pick one, any/all are more plausible explanations. Youtube is right up there with wikipedia on the credibility scale. As Chilidog, Muldoon, myself and others have stated, no one knows for sure. To say otherwise is a lie.

[rkelly110]

Take a hit of acid and you'll think you can fly. Biology, chemistry, dream, hallucination, wishful thinking. Pick one, any/all are more plausible explanations. Youtube is right up there with wikipedia on the credibility scale. As Chilidog, Muldoon, myself and others have stated, no one knows for sure. To say otherwise is a lie.

Refuting before you look. Maybe you could have a good laugh. Don't be afraid, God doesn't bite. Hearing those stories
won't hurt you one bit. If you don't like youtube or wiki, maybe find a book on the subject.

What ever you decide is cool. It's your choice.

[chilidog]

God can save people who seek after him, with a sincere heart and grace, that through no fault on their own have not been presented with the information.

Zeus can save people who seek after him...
Ra can save people who seek after him...
Osiris can save people who seek after him...
Brahman can save people who seek after him...

While this notion does not prove, nor disprove, the existence of God, we generally accept that the above Deities are non-existent, and yet they were God at one point in time.

[muldoon]

While this notion does not prove, nor disprove, the existence of God, we generally accept that the above Deities are non-existent, and yet they were God at one point in time.

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
	...Stephen F Roberts

[Footy4Jesus]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/1...m-for-zionism/

Hardly a credible site. Are you seriously using this as your source? Right up there with the Onion.

If you read into it, the article is clearly done with an anti-christian agenda in mind and not objective in nature. You are a fool if you think otherwise.

What else ya got??

[lucullus]

Hey nice to see you stop by satan. You are just the hate-filled, slanderous Jew-basher I was talking about. The real deceitful and crafty one is you.

[muldoon]

Hardly a credible site. Are you seriously using this as your source? Right up there with the Onion.

Which site? Raw Story? The Guardian? National Geographc? All have no credibility?

Do any online publications or science sources have any credibility to you? If so, which ones?

The headline obviously must be anti-christian.....

The Old Testament’s made-up camels are a problem for Zionism

[Kermit]

Had an interesting conversation with a thumper yesterday where he claimed that people lived to be up to 900 years old in biblical times. When I asked about the world being flat and the sun revolving around the earth, he made excuses.

[Seaweed]

Zeus can save people who seek after him...
Ra can save people who seek after him...
Osiris can save people who seek after him...
Brahman can save people who seek after him...

While this notion does not prove, nor disprove, the existence of God, we generally accept that the above Deities are non-existent, and yet they were God at one point in time.

Throughout history man has searched for a higher supernatural being. Christianity is not about Man's search for God, but God's search for man. While religions in the past have been a road trying to find the path to God, Christianity was God coming down to us. To me, the fact that men, in all times, have believed in some sort of supernatural being points that there is really something supernatural force beyond us. It is up to us to try and look at all the evidence and determine which God is the one Truth. For me, it is Christianity.

[Seaweed]

Had an interesting conversation with a thumper yesterday where he claimed that people lived to be up to 900 years old in biblical times. When I asked about the world being flat and the sun revolving around the earth, he made excuses.

900 years wasn't necessary a 365 day calendar. Not sure about that but that would be my guess. Again, these minor issues should be put aside when trying to uncover the big picture.

[Seaweed]

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
	...Stephen F Roberts

This is so wrong.

This would be like me asking you if you're an anarchist ( without goverment), and you saying you are not. Then me asking you if you believe a dictatorship is the best form of government and you saying you do not believe a dictatorship is the best form of government, you believe in Democracy. Does this make you an anarchist because you are against the belief of one form of government? No. Neither does it make one an atheist because it is not without God, it is with one TRUE God.

[chilidog]

While religions in the past have been a road trying to find the path to God, Christianity was God coming down to us.

How can you say this? No person with any shred of intellect would say what you are saying. You are belittling entire cultures and civilizations, because they differ from your beliefs? You don't seem to grasp that those civilizations believed in their Deities just as strongly as you do in yours.

Do you even know the history of Christianity? Look it up sometime. Ever wonder the history behind the word "Amen" when finishing a prayer? Christianity used many traditions from the Egyptian religion. You could just as easily be worshipping Amun-Ra. All depends on when you were born. For you to say otherwise is simply infantile and facetious.

[Seaweed]

How can you say this? No person with any shred of intellect would say what you are saying. You are belittling entire cultures and civilizations, because they differ from your beliefs? You don't seem to grasp that those civilizations believed in their Deities just as strongly as you do in yours.

Do you even know the history of Christianity? Look it up sometime. Ever wonder the history behind the word "Amen" when finishing a prayer? Christianity used many traditions from the Egyptian religion. You could just as easily be worshipping Amun-Ra. All depends on when you were born. For you to say otherwise is simply infantile and facetious.

Not one God is the same as the one presented in Christianity. Not one. The story of Christianity is unique to all pre-Judea religions, and anyones after. You are essentially saying that no religion is valid because if you were born in a different period you would believe in a different God. What about that proves that Christianity is not true? Oh right, none of it.

[Kermit]

900 years wasn't necessary a 365 day calendar. Not sure about that but that would be my guess. Again, these minor issues should be put aside when trying to uncover the big picture.

There are about 20 people named in the bible that were claimed to be over 500 years old. This is even less believable than a guy building a giant boat that had 2 of every animal on it.

[bigtymer56]

900 years wasn't necessary a 365 day calendar. Not sure about that but that would be my guess. Again, these minor issues should be put aside when trying to uncover the big picture.

Dudes living hundreds of years is a minor issue?

[Kermit]

Seaweed, even Christians are not on the same page about their own religion.

[Kermit]

1	Adam	930	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 5:4</cite>
2	Seth	912	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 5:8</cite>
3	Enosh	905	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 5:11</cite>
4	Cainan	910	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 5:14</cite>
5	Mahalalel	895	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 5:17</cite>
6	Jared	962	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 5:20</cite>
7	Enoch	365 (translated)	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 5:23</cite>
8	Methuselah	969	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 5:27</cite>
9	Lamech	777	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 5:31</cite>
10	Noah	950	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 9:29</cite>

11	Shem	600	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 11:10–11</cite>
12	Arphaxad	438	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 11:12–13</cite>
13	Shelah	433	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 11:14–15</cite>
14	Eber	464	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 11:16–17</cite>
15	Peleg	239	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 11:18–19</cite>
16	Reu	239	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 11:20–21</cite>
17	Serug	230	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 11:22–23</cite>
18	Nahor	148	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 11:24–25</cite>
19	Terah	205	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 11:32</cite>
20	Abraham	175	<cite class="bibleref">Genesis 25:7</cite>

[pronk]

[pronk]

[pronk]

[chilidog]

Not one God is the same as the one presented in Christianity. Not one. The story of Christianity is unique to all pre-Judea religions, and anyones after. You are essentially saying that no religion is valid because if you were born in a different period you would believe in a different God. What about that proves that Christianity is not true? Oh right, none of it.

It is irrelevant what each individual religions' tenets are.

[lucullus]

Throughout history man has searched for a higher supernatural being. Christianity is not about Man's search for God, but God's search for man. While religions in the past have been a road trying to find the path to God, Christianity was God coming down to us. To me, the fact that men, in all times, have believed in some sort of supernatural being points that there is really something supernatural force beyond us. It is up to us to try and look at all the evidence and determine which God is the one Truth. For me, it is Christianity.

Here the loony boy completely shows his ignorance for non-christian account's, such as the Illiad, for example, among hundreds. These guy's are all lunatics living in a fantasy world, or perhaps - they are goofing off and trolling the boards.

[brooks85]

You guys really need to think about what you are saying. I know we all probably aren't students of Law, but I have done enough study to know that fact and evidence are not the same thing.

Lets just say that you are the judge presiding over the case between evolution vs. creationism. In a way, you really are so this analogy fits. Maybe not coming to a ruling for all people, but you are coming to a decision for yourself.

All evidence presented in a court is not on the same level. There is circumstantial evidence that is based off of weaker arguments and assertions, then there is direct irrefutable proof. When you are talking about scientific evidence, you are using known theories to attempt coming to a conclusion about what is more probable. It often does not prove that the evidence is fact. After all, many of these scientific hypotheses are theories. Thats why they are called theories. Many things once thought of as true in science in the past don't hold water today.

Still, it can be used as evidence in the court. Its not necessarily the nail in the coffin for the prosecution or accused, but merely added to the collection of all the evidence presented to which the judge or jury will use to come to a decision.. What the judge or jury must come to is a direct burden of proof for whatever side by which the evidence offers. The decision is made if the case can be proven without a reasonable doubt.

Not without a doubt whatsoever, but without a reasonable one. Big difference there. Often guilt of the accused cannot be proven without a single doubt. But the likelihood that the accused did commit the crime is so high that it is taken as meeting the burden of proof. It may not be absolute proof, but enough that the judge or jury is sold on whether they are most probably guilty or innocent. If our law system required us to proof without a single doubt the accused is guilty, how could we ever try and convict people? Every criminal would be walking free because they had one little thing that cast some doubt on their guilt.

Perhaps there is a law major out there that can clear up some of the lingo on this issue, but from what I know:
evidence, facts, theories= not the same.

I'm not going to read any of that past the first sentence cause it's nonsense. I'm a chemical engineer, science gives me a hardon, I know exactly what "evidence" is. Stop being stupid, creationism is a penetrating joke.

According to you creationist I should be scared every second of every day because there is no guarantee that gravity is going to exist 1 second from now. That's how penetrating stupid your logic is.

[brooks85]

Just to put my 2 cents in. There have been very intelligent people who feel the same way you guys do who didn't believe
in the almighty. They died and were brought back by science. They told an unbelievable story about the afterlife. They
are believers now. You tube testimonies are in the hundreds. Maybe check them out for the sake of an argument?

lol this penetrating guy, unreal. I get more and more embarrassed for you everyday.

If you'd like something more factual there is actual scientific studies on the subject, don't need youtube.

[Footy4Jesus]

I'm not going to read any of that past the first sentence cause it's nonsense. I'm a chemical engineer, science gives me a hardon, I know exactly what "evidence" is. Stop being stupid, creationism is a penetrating joke.

According to you creationist I should be scared every second of every day because there is no guarantee that gravity is going to exist 1 second from now. That's how penetrating stupid your logic is.

If you have to resort to calling people stupid, it just shows that you need to do such things to back up what little you offer. You give no insight into how smart you claim to be other than saying you are a chemical engineer. Even if that's the truth, good for you. It proves nothing to your argument.

You want to call creationism a joke, but then that is all you say. So should we all just take your word for it because you are some self-proclaimed smart-guy?

Facts and evidence that points towards it are similar, but they are not the same thing. If you argue otherwise, perhaps you should review your knowledge on the subject before calling someone else an idiot.

Thank you for your "penetrating" logic. I am in awe of your greatness.

You use the same adjective 3 times. Perhaps you should look into purchasing a thesaurus so you can increase your vocabulary. I'm not trying to be inordinately mean. I'm just trying to help you work on your education.

[rkelly110]

Footy, when you see the word penetrating is any posts, SBR has an auto fill in word for fukking if they spell it right.
Notice I changed the spelling. If I spelled it right the fill in word would be penetrating. FYI.

[brooks85]

If you have to resort to calling people stupid, it just shows that you need to do such things to back up what little you offer. You give no insight into how smart you claim to be other than saying you are a chemical engineer. Even if that's the truth, good for you. It proves nothing to your argument.

You want to call creationism a joke, but then that is all you say. So should we all just take your word for it because you are some self-proclaimed smart-guy?

Facts and evidence that points towards it are similar, but they are not the same thing. If you argue otherwise, perhaps you should review your knowledge on the subject before calling someone else an idiot.

Thank you for your "penetrating" logic. I am in awe of your greatness.

You use the same adjective 3 times. Perhaps you should look into purchasing a thesaurus so you can increase your vocabulary. I'm not trying to be inordinately mean. I'm just trying to help you work on your education.

You're definitely an idiot, stupid etc so I feel 100% comfortable calling you that.


According to you creationist I should be scared every second of every day because there is no guarantee that gravity is going to exist 1 second from now. That's how penetrating stupid your logic is.

That is your logic, not mine. This "God" you believe in surely thinks you're an idiot too.\

Go ahead and take the high road, I'll stick with logic and name calling.

[Footy4Jesus]

You're definitely an idiot, stupid etc so I feel 100% comfortable calling you that.


According to you creationist I should be scared every second of every day because there is no guarantee that gravity is going to exist 1 second from now. That's how penetrating stupid your logic is.

That is your logic, not mine. This "God" you believe in surely thinks you're an idiot too.\

Go ahead and take the high road, I'll stick with logic and name calling.

Fine, stick to your insults. If you want to use your comparison of scientific theories (which is what we are discussing here), with gravity, go ahead. Gravity is a scientific law, it is not a theory. I would assume someone in your field of study would know the difference.

I'm not going to go as low as to call yourself an idiot, but you sure do seem to be quite arrogant.

I never said I didn't believe in evolution. I just stated that science doesn't do a good job at explaining everything in this life and that there seems to be a spiritual component to it, not only the physical. You are just assuming I am so close-minded to such things, but I am not the argumentative ideologue like you are.

I simply believe that there is something that set everything in motion. Something created it. That something could also have created the process of evolution, and I choose to call that something God.

Go ahead and make fun of me and others for believing in something you choose to ignore. If you were dying this very day and were laying down in your death bed, you would say with 100% certainty that you have no fear what is on the other side and confident in your atheistic beliefs that you would stake your eternity on it? If you do, you are more brave than I. Or maybe a better word for it is stubborn.

[Footy4Jesus]

lol this penetrating guy, unreal. I get more and more embarrassed for you everyday.

If you'd like something more factual there is actual scientific studies on the subject, don't need youtube.

Oh, an even better testimony to his credibility. Thanks.

[rkelly110]

Troll definitions.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/11/tech/web/online-trolls-sadists/index.html

[brooks85]

Fine, stick to your insults. If you want to use your comparison of scientific theories (which is what we are discussing here), with gravity, go ahead. Gravity is a scientific law, it is not a theory. I would assume someone in your field of study would know the difference.

I'm not going to go as low as to call yourself an idiot, but you sure do seem to be quite arrogant.

I never said I didn't believe in evolution. I just stated that science doesn't do a good job at explaining everything in this life and that there seems to be a spiritual component to it, not only the physical. You are just assuming I am so close-minded to such things, but I am not the argumentative ideologue like you are.

I simply believe that there is something that set everything in motion. Something created it. That something could also have created the process of evolution, and I choose to call that something God.

Go ahead and make fun of me and others for believing in something you choose to ignore. If you were dying this very day and were laying down in your death bed, you would say with 100% certainty that you have no fear what is on the other side and confident in your atheistic beliefs that you would stake your eternity on it? If you do, you are more brave than I. Or maybe a better word for it is stubborn.

So is the decay rate of carbon-14 genius. It's comical you think you know what you're talking about when we both know you've never stepped a foot inside a science class past high school.


As I said, if you're creationist this is your logic and it appears you don't even know why because scientific laws are irrelevant to creationist. Looks like you're distancing yourself from the creationist angle, good idea. You should stick to intelligent design, at least people and god won't think you're a complete idiot.

[Footy4Jesus]

So is the decay rate of carbon-14 genius. It's comical you think you know what you're talking about when we both know you've never stepped a foot inside a science class past high school.


As I said, if you're creationist this is your logic and it appears you don't even know why because scientific laws are irrelevant to creationist. Looks like you're distancing yourself from the creationist angle, good idea. You should stick to intelligent design, at least people and god won't think you're a complete idiot.

I don't need to prove to you the credentials I have hanging on my wall. I wont lose sleep over it. I also don't think you are an idiot, so you don't need to continue lashing out at me because I may have offended you. If you are truly a chem engineer, then I'm not so jaded to think I could put you to shame in that field of study. I just dislike when people want to call others idiots because they hold beliefs that contradict their own. You aren't right about everything. Neither am I. So are you able to have a discussion with others who have religious beliefs, or is that too difficult for you?

I'm also not distancing myself from any ideas I hold. You have only assumed that I discredit science because of my faith in God, which couldn't be further from the truth. Scientific principles change all the time. After this point about gravity was brought up, I looked into it further and found that these laws are actually being called into question, too. For me that's even greater evidence that science is not the end-all-be-all to all of creation.

The concept (theory, whatever you want to call it) of evolution does not debunk the possibility of there being a God at all. Its just an explanation of the process by which we are able to advance ourselves as complex lifeforms.

There is no need for arguing. I myself apologize if I've offended you with what I said earlier. This should be a discussion where we both can share our opinions and ideas without insult, with respect for the others side even if we think it is silly. Hurling insults at one another because they don't believe the same things does nothing constructive at all. We aren't all programmed the same way. We are human, not robots.