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I would like to say this - I think 'flipping' is just retarded and only makes sense if 'even up' afterwards.
Now since the thread you started SBR Forum made it clear it is not allowed, so stopped doing it.
In bobbywaves' defense, he didn't intend to 'even up' and simply agreed to it at that time prior to the warning.
But then you, Beerdog, send points to your 'pals' can be also seen as 'evening up'Comment -
Good point by BeerDog99, gambling is funComment -
someone feel free to "even me up".......
sbr is waiting their daily/weekly contribution of all my points on their slot machines.....Comment -
You have no clue what you're talking about. I prefer to gamble with my flips. Never requested to even out afterwards. Some would not flip unless I agreed to even out, so I did until SBR made it known that's not allowed.
False...SBR stated flipping is ok without the evening out. "Flipping as I do?" I'm in total compliance, try to prove otherwise chump.Flipping as you do is both against the spirit of why people do it and against the spirit of the forum SBR hosts for usLast edited by bobbywaves; 03-14-17, 11:48 PM.Comment -
LOL tradeout and Bobbywaves, I have never evened up at all and it is sad for you to even imply this let alone accuse me of this.
As anybody who has been around this forum knows, I hand out a lot of points both to my friends and to various posters when I see good or funny things. For the most part, the points are useless to me and therefore I see very little value other than their value on this site itself.
Tradeout, poker players in real life started flipping for the sheer gamble of it, it was never to minimize the rake. Whether you find that stupid or not, does not change the truth of that.
Bobby, as you consistently do, you missed the words and intent of the message to self justify, I never stated you are not currently "in-compliance" with the direct rules. I will not bother restating what I did above as you will not acknowledge any point. That makes you a chump, not I.Comment -
Fact of the matter is, you hand out many pts for no apparent reason. There's nothing stopping you from evening out with some of your buds after a big cash game win, disguising it as gifts.
If you don't do this, congrats. Perhaps your giving is good natured, but you're naive to think it can't be questioned by anyone.
Fact of the matter is, Tradeout doesn't flip anymore because of you. When a solid member of the flipping community like Tradeout is lost because of you, that effects me.Tradeout, poker players in real life started flipping for the sheer gamble of it, it was never to minimize the rake. Whether you find that stupid or not, does not change the truth of that.
I didn't miss any of your points, simply disagree. If flipping is "against the spirit" as you ignorantly say, then why does SBR allow it?Bobby, as you consistently do, you missed the words and intent of the message to self justify, I never stated you are not currently "in-compliance" with the direct rules. I will not bother restating what I did above as you will not acknowledge any point. That makes you a chump, not I.
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C'mon now BD, don't you know that gifts are only gifts when bobbo does them? When someone else does it, they're evening up, giving loans, or whatever other classification suits the point he's futilely trying to make (it's hard to keep track at this point when he's contradicted himself so many times). It's the same way that he views his exploiting technicalities as a savvy move, while someone exploiting his technicalities is scamming him. You made a good point of course, but your logic never stood a chance against a guy who is unfamiliar with the concept
Text Wall Warning! Summary at Bottom
On the issue of flipping, for those who aren't seeing the bigger picture hinted at by several above: if SBR had sustainable rollover requirements designed to capture the rollover through rake before paying out (like profitable poker sites do), this would be a non issue, as flippers would lose the vast majority of their rollover through rake. SBR generously doesn't require the 20x rollover they'd have to if they wanted to be sustainable, running much lower requirements in the hopes of stimulating cash games by giving away tons of points. Unfortunately, this generosity seems to not only have not worked well (it seems most points are rolled over and yanked from tables soon after), but leaves them open to abuse by people who are unable or (more often) unwilling to play cash games as intended and flip instead. SBR, left in a difficult position of not having a great way to police this but wanting to encourage the rest of the community, ends up wasting a bunch of points on people who are not interested in participating in the poker community except for the free handouts.
I have some sympathy for people who prefer flipping because they're not on often enough to find games to rollover in...but if these people are unable to stimulate cash games as intended with the poker points, I'm not too torn up about them being able to get points from tourneys. Not to say all flippers are doing so with bad intent; some (perhaps most) flippers are just reacting to the current environment...there are only a few despicable ones who are just looking to scam SBR for any free handouts they can get.
The only effective solution I see is threefold:
1) raise poker point rollovers to the sustainable 20x. This would make it very clear that the purpose of the the huge poker tournament overlays is to stimulate the poker community, it would disincentivize people exploiting SBR's generosity, and the increased rake take would allow SBR to provide more promotions more narrowly targeted at the people who will grow the community. I can understand the desire to not want to scare away new players, but if they're not willing to play that much poker, they're not the people you want to attract anyways. Players with less time to rollover can still participate as outlined below. (Note: rake caps might have to be removed to ensure 20x rollover @ 5% rake= 100% rake captured...otherwise it leaves a loophole to be exploited)
2) Change rollover evaluation. Combine all rollover-requiring poker points into one large pool, and release them in increments of 20 points or similar. This removes the need to find an appropriate blind level for rollovers, makes small tourney cashes less worthless, and allows more casual players to still receive some benefit even if they can't play often enough to roll over everything. With the sustainable rollover requirement, SBR doesn't even need to worry about expiring the rollovers (normally it's a bad idea for businesses to not place time limits on the potential liabilities), because they're revenue neutral (for the most part anyways; flippers could technically get ~5% of face value, but I think it's safe to say the handful of people who'd be willing to waste the time doing it aren't a huge concern).
3) Beef up the offerings. With daily tournament prizes revenue neutral, SBR and sponsor $$ could be focused on bigger and better contest prizes. SBR gives away a very conservative 30,000+ points a week in tourneys (after rake from rollover, non-used rollovers etc). For a 3 month contest where dailies are revenue neutral instead, that's 360,000 extra points that could be added to the final tournament/winning team prizes/etc. For comparison purposes, that means a promo like the current World cup could almost triple the prizes for teams (if 2nd-4th are turned into betpoints; if they weren't, the top team prize would quadruple), and might convince more players to participate if the top team is pulling down over $1k in gift cards each. WSOP seats would be feasible; SBR could afford to send multiple players to some of the $1k buyin events (team SBR!), or one player to Vegas for a week for multiple events including travel....high-profile prizes like this seem like they're more advantageous to the SBR brand anyways! SBR could offer a rakeback program for play using betpoints (which would be a net revenue gain) and bonuses (revenue-neutral, clearing as an equivalent amount of rake is collected).
Doing the above would go a long way to resolving the stagnation at the poker tables, the issue of people exploiting SBR for freebies, and would even bring the poker program more in line with other SBR offerings (as has been rightly pointed out before, SBR currently throws more points at the poker program than almost anything else, for arguably little return). You might have some casual players deciding it's no longer worth their time, but I'd be surprised if it was much of a net loss: very few people are playing SBR poker because they can't earn more per hour elsewhere, and players would still want a shot at qualifying for contest-end events where they'd have a shot at betpoints or other non-rollover prizes.
Important to note that even taking the above steps would still leave SBR exposed to potential abuse...people could dump rollovers to others and settle up afterwards, which would probably require some extra policing to detect. I don't think it would be too difficult to implement some quick checks to keep the abuse to an acceptable minimum though; a simple report run on points transfers between players, with an eye on repeated transactions or over certain amounts coupled with poker playing, would probably do the trick. The alternative (treating poker points as real $ rooms treat bonuses, playing for real points and releasing in increments to betpoint balance) would stop that practice, but would likely not have as wide of an appeal for casual players or those who don't maintain a betpoint bankroll.
SBR: the core of these changes seem like they're within the capabilities of the software. It would certainly shake things up, and the effects on participation are hard to accurately predict...but it seems like it would be worth a shot. Maybe try it out for a contest and see how it plays out; if it doesn't work out, you can always go back to the current way of doing things! If assistance is desired or required for any of this, there are at least half a dozen of us who are capable and willing to help make things better
tl;dr version: make rollovers revenue-neutral, simplify rollover balances and funnel savings to better prizes. Limits exploitation, targets desired players with greater accuracy, more specifically encourages poker room growth.Comment -
simply put.....if you're a flipper (BW - Blanko - Dlow to just name a few) you're more than obviously taking advantage of SBR's generosity when it comes to poker and are doing nothing to help the poker community grow. How pathetic over a friggin $25 pizza card..........if I see a table flipping, I will come and disrupt playComment -
I like some of it but 20x sounds a bit too much to me. Particularly if the main intention is just to make flipping non-economical. I think it would reduce the number of tourney players by a lot.
C'mon now BD, don't you know that gifts are only gifts when bobbo does them? When someone else does it, they're evening up, giving loans, or whatever other classification suits the point he's futilely trying to make (it's hard to keep track at this point when he's contradicted himself so many times). It's the same way that he views his exploiting technicalities as a savvy move, while someone exploiting his technicalities is scamming him. You made a good point of course, but your logic never stood a chance against a guy who is unfamiliar with the concept
Text Wall Warning! Summary at Bottom
On the issue of flipping, for those who aren't seeing the bigger picture hinted at by several above: if SBR had sustainable rollover requirements designed to capture the rollover through rake before paying out (like profitable poker sites do), this would be a non issue, as flippers would lose the vast majority of their rollover through rake. SBR generously doesn't require the 20x rollover they'd have to if they wanted to be sustainable, running much lower requirements in the hopes of stimulating cash games by giving away tons of points. Unfortunately, this generosity seems to not only have not worked well (it seems most points are rolled over and yanked from tables soon after), but leaves them open to abuse by people who are unable or (more often) unwilling to play cash games as intended and flip instead. SBR, left in a difficult position of not having a great way to police this but wanting to encourage the rest of the community, ends up wasting a bunch of points on people who are not interested in participating in the poker community except for the free handouts.
I have some sympathy for people who prefer flipping because they're not on often enough to find games to rollover in...but if these people are unable to stimulate cash games as intended with the poker points, I'm not too torn up about them being able to get points from tourneys. Not to say all flippers are doing so with bad intent; some (perhaps most) flippers are just reacting to the current environment...there are only a few despicable ones who are just looking to scam SBR for any free handouts they can get.
The only effective solution I see is threefold:
1) raise poker point rollovers to the sustainable 20x. This would make it very clear that the purpose of the the huge poker tournament overlays is to stimulate the poker community, it would disincentivize people exploiting SBR's generosity, and the increased rake take would allow SBR to provide more promotions more narrowly targeted at the people who will grow the community. I can understand the desire to not want to scare away new players, but if they're not willing to play that much poker, they're not the people you want to attract anyways. Players with less time to rollover can still participate as outlined below. (Note: rake caps might have to be removed to ensure 20x rollover @ 5% rake= 100% rake captured...otherwise it leaves a loophole to be exploited)
2) Change rollover evaluation. Combine all rollover-requiring poker points into one large pool, and release them in increments of 20 points or similar. This removes the need to find an appropriate blind level for rollovers, makes small tourney cashes less worthless, and allows more casual players to still receive some benefit even if they can't play often enough to roll over everything. With the sustainable rollover requirement, SBR doesn't even need to worry about expiring the rollovers (normally it's a bad idea for businesses to not place time limits on the potential liabilities), because they're revenue neutral (for the most part anyways; flippers could technically get ~5% of face value, but I think it's safe to say the handful of people who'd be willing to waste the time doing it aren't a huge concern).
3) Beef up the offerings. With daily tournament prizes revenue neutral, SBR and sponsor $$ could be focused on bigger and better contest prizes. SBR gives away a very conservative 30,000+ points a week in tourneys (after rake from rollover, non-used rollovers etc). For a 3 month contest where dailies are revenue neutral instead, that's 360,000 extra points that could be added to the final tournament/winning team prizes/etc. For comparison purposes, that means a promo like the current World cup could almost triple the prizes for teams (if 2nd-4th are turned into betpoints; if they weren't, the top team prize would quadruple), and might convince more players to participate if the top team is pulling down over $1k in gift cards each. WSOP seats would be feasible; SBR could afford to send multiple players to some of the $1k buyin events (team SBR!), or one player to Vegas for a week for multiple events including travel....high-profile prizes like this seem like they're more advantageous to the SBR brand anyways! SBR could offer a rakeback program for play using betpoints (which would be a net revenue gain) and bonuses (revenue-neutral, clearing as an equivalent amount of rake is collected).
Doing the above would go a long way to resolving the stagnation at the poker tables, the issue of people exploiting SBR for freebies, and would even bring the poker program more in line with other SBR offerings (as has been rightly pointed out before, SBR currently throws more points at the poker program than almost anything else, for arguably little return). You might have some casual players deciding it's no longer worth their time, but I'd be surprised if it was much of a net loss: very few people are playing SBR poker because they can't earn more per hour elsewhere, and players would still want a shot at qualifying for contest-end events where they'd have a shot at betpoints or other non-rollover prizes.
Important to note that even taking the above steps would still leave SBR exposed to potential abuse...people could dump rollovers to others and settle up afterwards, which would probably require some extra policing to detect. I don't think it would be too difficult to implement some quick checks to keep the abuse to an acceptable minimum though; a simple report run on points transfers between players, with an eye on repeated transactions or over certain amounts coupled with poker playing, would probably do the trick. The alternative (treating poker points as real $ rooms treat bonuses, playing for real points and releasing in increments to betpoint balance) would stop that practice, but would likely not have as wide of an appeal for casual players or those who don't maintain a betpoint bankroll.
SBR: the core of these changes seem like they're within the capabilities of the software. It would certainly shake things up, and the effects on participation are hard to accurately predict...but it seems like it would be worth a shot. Maybe try it out for a contest and see how it plays out; if it doesn't work out, you can always go back to the current way of doing things! If assistance is desired or required for any of this, there are at least half a dozen of us who are capable and willing to help make things better
tl;dr version: make rollovers revenue-neutral, simplify rollover balances and funnel savings to better prizes. Limits exploitation, targets desired players with greater accuracy, more specifically encourages poker room growth.
Would much prefer to see positive encouragement to play more cash games.
A bad beat jackpot pool would take extra rake from flippers and hand it to people who played ring tables more often for example.
Maybe a leaderboard showing who converts the most poker points by percentage would encourage more ring play?.Comment -
you guys take this way too seriously..Comment -
I love buying in short against Big Orange. It's the only way I can win.
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20x might be too much, but it's important to acknowledge that's the baseline for sustainability. Discouraging flipping isn't the main reason to do so; rather, it keeps promotions focused on players who are more likely to achieve intended results (populating cash games)...if the poker room can only ever be a place where rollovers briefly exist before the points are taken elsewhere, it's hard to justify growing it (especially if it can only be done by handing out more freebies). Comes down to going after the right players; trying to bribe non-poker players into playing gets expensive fast.
Tourney participation might drop if rollover was raised significantly, but I imagine it would level off; it's still a free game of poker, and less participants would raise the chances of prizes for the remaining until it was worth it to people. 20x rollover is the baseline to be points-neutral; if the current overlay is what SBR wants to keep, they could raise rollover to 10x (still likely to dissuade flippers) and use the extra 700 points per tourney to fund ring game promotions or others. Could use some of that savings to make some or all of places part betpoints/part rollover, so people can still play a tourney and cash something without having to rollover at all....or maybe raise the rollover requirements with the prize levels, so the average rollover requirement for points remains higher. The combinations are limitless, but none of it really works with a rollover as low as 3x....too easy for people to exploit, and the points disappear out of the poker room too quickly.
Oddly enough, that's the case for me...I've treated SBR poker more seriously (in terms of the community, not winning or losing any given event) than I usually do with real money. I can win real $ in poker anywhere, whereas SBR poker is unique maybe? Who knows
Yeah, it's a bit more complex than misquoting someone to prove some imaginary point or whatever it is you blabber on about these days...what I was talking about required a bunch of words you obviously didn't read. It's about poker, business models and other stuff you've assured us you know nothing about, so carry on with your usual schitck
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For those who have a problem with flipping: I spend anywhere between 4-7 hours playing these daily tourney's. So the last thing I want to do is spend more hours grinding rolls on weekends, as I value my time.
That's my prerogative, to complete rolls in a time efficient manner that work best for me. If you don't like flipping that's your choice, then simply don't sit at my table. There's plenty of intellectuals waiting for me to flip.
But to complain about flipping or call it collusion when: it's legal, doesn't effect you, or any 3rd party, only demonstrates ignorance.Comment -
yeah Jake I guess I am guilty of that.....for the life of me I cannot figure out why guys would take advantage of a great situation here at SBR and angle shoot to gain points....it wouldn't be allowed anywhere else....how freaking hard is it to sit down at a cash game and just play cards? I have zero respect for anyone who doesn't see thatComment -
lol its a free poker game why are people debating anything...... follow your own path and let people do their own thing
if people cheat the system and even up after then they will be banned like SBR said
if people want to flip then let them, SBR clearly said its allowed and they still get rake so why would they care at all?
I could care less what others do , its their points not yours , if you dont like flipping then dont flip ... pretty simple its a free poker game lol not that big of a deal were not playing for thousands of dollars here..... its for FUN , if people want to go all in and flip their rollovers for a coin flip gamble then let them.... basically a black/red roulette gameComment -
when did i ever say points were worthless in what i just wrote
i said its FREE poker , 0 CASH BUY IN .... why would anybody care what others do with their points?? Make your own points and do what youd like ? Youve made 30k in poker points... im happy for you why would i care at all if you flip them or not lol?
just doesnt make sense to me , if somebody is cheating the system and flipping then evening up after i could see people getting mad at that because its clearly against the rules and what SBR said.... but they said flipping normally is allowed... its a 50/50 crap shoot where SBR gets rake just like any -110 bet , just dont even understand any debate whatsoever about this topic, its not breaking any rules and it literally effects nobody lol so there shouldnt be any fuss at all imoComment -
4-7 hours a week playing SBR poker and value my time on the same paragraph? Ok bob.
You're also wrong that it doesn't effect non flippers since you're obviously decreasing the available action on the tables when you choose the easy way out, but for now it's legal here so you do you booby.Comment -
could care less buddy, i put lol because frankly its a joke people get so butthurt writing essays over free points
the tables are open 48+ hours on the weekends , ive seen the tables have 0 people over 70% of the time, so that argument is extremely invalid... Flipping takes 10 minutes , SBR clearly said its allowed and they get rake... not even a debate so ill save my breathe since most people here have their mind set and cannot be swayed. Just sad people get so upset over other peoples actions but hey thats the world we live in today so im not surprised at all "LOLLLLLLLLL"Comment -
It's not the same as getting juice on a bet, because SBR is giving away the points and only collecting a small percentage of it back. Their stated purpose for doing so is to encourage play at ring tables; if everyone did nothing but flip and run away with their rollovers, it doesn't seem like SBR would have much reason to keep the poker room open, and that does affect us all. As you say, SBR is cool with it at the moment, but there's a difference between behavior they tolerate and ethical behavior (stiffing on a loan or bet for example).when did i ever say points were worthless in what i just wrote
i said its FREE poker , 0 CASH BUY IN .... why would anybody care what others do with their points?? Make your own points and do what youd like ? Youve made 30k in poker points... im happy for you why would i care at all if you flip them or not lol?
just doesnt make sense to me , if somebody is cheating the system and flipping then evening up after i could see people getting mad at that because its clearly against the rules and what SBR said.... but they said flipping normally is allowed... its a 50/50 crap shoot where SBR gets rake just like any -110 bet , just dont even understand any debate whatsoever about this topic, its not breaking any rules and it literally effects nobody lol so there shouldnt be any fuss at all imoComment -
Unlike you I'm retired, I can afford the 4-7 hours from daily tourney's. It doesn't bother me, as I get entertainment value from slow rolling pricks. Grinding rolls for hours would bother me, therefore I don't partake in such pathetic behavior.
False, not effecting non flippers at all. There's always a Omaha table running on weekends. But of course you wouldn't know this since you don't play poker, yet you troll a poker forum.You're also wrong that it doesn't effect non flippers since you're obviously decreasing the available action on the tables when you choose the easy way out, but for now it's legal here so you do you booby.
Correct, it is legal. So crawl back into your hole chump.Comment -
20x rollover..... the rake would eat up all rollovers under 175 or so.... lol
as for uscphilly's question of how hard is it to sit down at a cash game and actually play poker, waves and other "intellectuals" apparently cannot do it and have any success, which is why they puss out and flip.....
"intellectuals" = pussies in "wavesspeak"Comment -
Booby is a walking contradiction, not a surprise since it needs the hard dic at the end, who will never "get it". For some reason I feel the need to point out his ridiculous claims once in a while but it is solely for less informed who might believe this clown since I know he will never "get it". He will respond to your question with nonsense like he always does to everyone.Comment -
It's a 'reading comprehension' thing, you've convinced me you're unwilling AND unable to understand. Just stick to skimming and not understanding posts, hoping to take quotes out of context or misquote someone...leave the discussion to those of us who know what we're talking about OK?
Bobbo's not in the habit of backing his opinions up with rational reasons...there are dozens of threads and hundreds of posts where he's gone out of his way to prove his consistency in that regard. Take it from someone who wasted far too much time trying to educate him: you're better off just chuckling at his ignorance and moving on
20x rollover (and corresponding changes I outlined) eats all rollover amounts at an equal rate regardless of size...changing the rollovers to one pool would remove any concerns about rolling over different amounts. The 20x number is closer to the model real $ rooms use, which is less susceptible to perverse incentives than the current setup. 10x with some other changes might get the job done too...my main point is that 3x is a fundamental flaw that undermines attempts to populate ring games.
It's obviously pretty easy to sit down at a cash table and roll over while playing a tourney...certainly saves having to sit at the computer all day during weekends waiting for someone to flip with. The downside is fairly obvious though: if you just happen to be a weak micronit who insists he's one of the best, sitting down to play at cash tables would lead to poor results even a veteran dimwit might struggle to rationalize
On the thought of the ease of playing during tourneys: if the software could handle it, maybe run tables during tournaments which clear rollovers twice as quick? In conjunction with a higher rollover, that could give players an incentive to play and the limited times could make it more likely to see full tables.Comment -
Obviously for the time it takes, compared to flipping.
That's fine if you & others don't value your time as I do, that's your right to spend your time as you choose. If you had the choice between a shovel & a snowblower to clear a foot of snow, I guess you're one of those guys who would use the shovel.i just roll my points over when i feel like playing some poker but not a tourney, or if there is no tourney running. why is anyone not flipping pathetic?
The other element you fail to take into consideration, I had more cashes/rolls to clear than anyone over the last four years. So it's my preference not to waste time & be efficient as possible, with the plethora of rolls I have to deal with.Comment -
Leave the discussion to a moron who suggests a 20x rollover, so the SBR poker room can be more of a ghost town than it already is? No thanks, I won't allow SBR to go out of business by listening to any of your ignorant suggestions.
Of course Tripe. Unlike you, that's how I roll.Bobbo's in the habit of backing his opinions up with rational reasons.
Thanks again for the 29k from our poker bet broke dikk.
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