God question

[Matt Rain]

If God exists, he sure is wasting a lot of energy by keeping these billions of stars lit up. Not very green of Him.

Get with the program, dude.

[Matt Rain]

....

[pavyracer]

Well I am pretty unreligious but isnt it easier to fathom that 1 random act of chance (god) was created as opposed to millions of acts of chance (the millions of things in the universe/world/human bodies/animals/life) randomly happened?

i mean isnt it more likely that 1 thing was already here and he made the rest of us?

just saying...

Yeah but if one thing was already here by itself then why will he bother creating the rest of the universe? Was he bored one day and said: "Fukk this I'm bored. I will create a universe and fill it with creatures in 7 days and then I will create a human so he can destroy it all one day. Then I will tell the human to write a book to document my creation so they can teach it to more humans through the ages to know who really controls their lives. Me! I am the greatest genius ever. God!"

[moneyline]

Still waiting for my the amateur scientists in the audience to share with the unwashed masses how the universe was created and, more specifically, how it is possible to create something out of nothing?

'I don't know' is the answer you are searching for. 'I just believe it' is an example of the faith you folks seem to ridicule at every turn. Irony meets SBR

[Willie Bee]

Very nice Matt, was in need of a good chuckle and knew I'd find one in this thread one way or another.

[slacker00]

Still waiting for my the amateur scientists in the audience to share with the unwashed masses how the universe was created and, more specifically, how it is possible to create something out of nothing?

'I don't know' is the answer you are searching for. 'I just believe it' is an example of the faith you folks seem to ridicule at every turn. Irony meets SBR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang_theory

It's the most scientifically accurate model at present.

[slacker00]

Well I am pretty unreligious but isnt it easier to fathom that 1 random act of chance (god) was created as opposed to millions of acts of chance (the millions of things in the universe/world/human bodies/animals/life) randomly happened?

i mean isnt it more likely that 1 thing was already here and he made the rest of us?

just saying...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor

I've also always preferred the simplest explanation whenever possible.

The problem with religion that it only starts out simple. It inevitably branches out into all kinds of moralizing which has nothing to do with the original primary assumptive fact that God exists.

My main problem with religion is how it seems so "political". Just look at the chain of command structure of the churches and the history of the major religions. Did God really intend there to be these religious wars? Is one tribe really praying to the wrong God? Why were "we" God's chosen people? It all smacks of political rhetoric to me.

I believe in God. I don't believe God speaks to me in the words or actions of other human beings.

[reno cool]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor

I've also always preferred the simplest explanation whenever possible.

The problem with religion that it only starts out simple. It inevitably branches out into all kinds of moralizing which has nothing to do with the original primary assumptive fact that God exists.

My main problem with religion is how it seems so "political". Just look at the chain of command structure of the churches and the history of the major religions. Did God really intend there to be these religious wars? Is one tribe really praying to the wrong God? Why were "we" God's chosen people? It all smacks of political rhetoric to me.

I believe in God. I don't believe God speaks to me in the words or actions of other human beings.

I think this is the heart of it. The real question is not did god create the Universe, but who created God and why?

[moneyline]

God has always been ...

(once again, the question is how does one create something out of NOTHING ...)

-- I know, I know, nobody can answer that question!

[The Seer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang_theory

It's the most scientifically accurate model at present.

Well then tell us where the conditions for the big bang came from.

[l7ustin]

Something "just was".

Either God just existed or this world just existed...

I honestly dont know how you can deny that something created us. The amount of perfect conditions required for life as we know it is unrealistic when left to chance. I am more interested in how life began and not so much how our world got here.

And yes I think with an infinite amount of time and nothing to do "god" would get bored. Then again god must have created time too.

I doubt I could have been nearly as creative if making my own world.

I find it more likely that something created us and died than we just randomly got here. Again I am not religious at all but to think we got here by total random chance...its a ridiculous hypothesis....or maybe whatever created us is alive and living who knows?

[pavyracer]

God has always been ...

(once again, the question is how does one create something out of NOTHING ...)

-- I know, I know, nobody can answer that question!

The real question is just how someone can believe something create us out of nothing based on a book we wrote.

[rookie]

In my conversation with believers in God, one theme is common: fear of hell after death. They don't want to take a chance. Believing in God is a freeplay for them.

Yesterday, I was watching some old episodes of South Park. One of them was Damien (Episode 8/ Season 1/ www.allsp.com) - it has Jesus, Satan and gambling.

[pico]

i always thought jesus is the bastard kid of god and a hooker.

[reno cool]

Something "just was".

Either God just existed or this world just existed...

I honestly dont know how you can deny that something created us. The amount of perfect conditions required for life as we know it is unrealistic when left to chance. I am more interested in how life began and not so much how our world got here.

And yes I think with an infinite amount of time and nothing to do "god" would get bored. Then again god must have created time too.

I doubt I could have been nearly as creative if making my own world.

I find it more likely that something created us and died than we just randomly got here. Again I am not religious at all but to think we got here by total random chance...its a ridiculous hypothesis....or maybe whatever created us is alive and living who knows?

chance can create anything. If chance created a radically different world, those beings might also be wondering what created them.
Out of all the sperm that ever existed you are you and alive now out of all eternity. What are the chances of that?

[apk2k6]

A pair of every single animal/creature was put onto a boat where they reproduced.....that's so funny

They could have at least made it more believable, Harry Potter is more convincing!

[l7ustin]

In my conversation with believers in God, one theme is common: fear of hell after death. They don't want to take a chance. Believing in God is a freeplay for them.

Yesterday, I was watching some old episodes of South Park. One of them was Damien (Episode 8/ Season 1/ www.allsp.com) - it has Jesus, Satan and gambling.

thus is the problem with religion. its fear based. they overlook the simple fact that they have an equally or more probable chance of being totally wrong.

if god doesnt exist you are wasting your life (your only life) not doing fun and exciting things in fear of "sin" and "hell".

live it up folks- you only get one life!

get religious when you get old if your worried about hell- dont waste your youth, find jesus on your death bed! dont believe the cucks who claim you could die tomorrow-

[l7ustin]

chance can create anything. If chance created a radically different world, those beings might also be wondering what created them.
Out of all the sperm that ever existed you are you and alive now out of all eternity. What are the chances of that?

reno- you are wrong here- no chance was involved. me and the other sperm could have raced 100 times and i would have won all 100. i was a bad ass spermoid!

[Bread]

Someone already mentioned that the main motivator for people to find salvation, is to escape hell.

I'm not going to compromise my non-beliefs over a fear factor. That makes you more guilty than the blasphemers.

[l7ustin]

one day i will read "the god delusion" by richard dawkins (i think). a lot of the smartest people in the world seem to be atheist. coincidence???

list:
calvin bridges
richard dawkins
sigmun freud
charles darwin
julius axelrod
stephen hawking
ivan pavlov
pavyracer
patric blackitt

[Bread]

one day i will read "the god delusion" by richard dawkins (i think). a lot of the smartest people in the world seem to be atheist. coincidence???

list:
calvin bridges
richard dawkins
sigmun freud
charles darwin
julius axelrod
stephen hawking
ivan pavlov
pavyracer
patric blackitt

lol, excellent.

[RogueScholar]

Alright, first I need a preface. I don't see why any of us bother with this thread, because who would even want a guy like Pavy to find salvation? I know that as a Christian, I should want to see everyone achieve eternal harmony with God in heaven. As a pragmatist, though, I think God expects some people to be atheists and that's how he keeps the creeps and assholes out of His masterwork. Just sayin'...

Now, after going through all five pages I was just going to never admit that I wasted 15 minutes with this drivel, but I was staggered to see that no one had provided a condensed version of René Descartes' ontological argument. If you're going to argue the existence of God then let us at least avail ourselves of the thought processes of those who went before us. It's not like this SBR thread is the first time anyone has ever requested, and then received, an ontological argument based on reason. Keep in mind that we're dealing with metaphysics here, so "black & white" answers aren't really possible.

Let's start with the appropriate translation of Descartes' Meditations on First Philosophy, written in 1641. Even though I have a fondness for Latin, I'll spare you the original and provide a reasonable translation.

"But if the mere fact that I can produce from my thought the idea of something that entails everything which I clearly and distinctly perceive to belong to that thing really does belong to it, is not this a possible basis for another argument to prove the existence of God? Certainly, the idea of God, or a supremely perfect being, is one that I find within me just as surely as the idea of any shape or number. And my understanding that it belongs to his nature that he always exists is no less clear and distinct than is the case when I prove of any shape or number that some property belongs to its nature"

Now, I know some will fault me for citing other work here, when I could summarize it myself, but since I don't know how many will even ponder what I write here, I'll just cite Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditat...rst_Philosophy

Here's the summary most eloquently provided there:

Argument 1

1. Something cannot come from nothing.
2. The cause of an idea must have at least as much formal reality as the idea has objective reality.
3. I have in me an idea of God. This idea has infinite objective reality.
4. I cannot be the cause of this idea, since I am not an infinite and perfect being. I don't have enough formal reality. Only an infinite and perfect being could cause such an idea.
5. So God — a being with infinite formal reality — must exist (and be the source of my idea of God).
6. An absolutely perfect being is a good, benevolent being.
7. So God is benevolent.
8. So God would not deceive me and would not permit me to error without giving me a way to correct my errors.

Argument 2

1. I exist.
2. My existence must have a cause.
3. The cause must be either:

a) myself
b) my always having existed
c) my parents
d) something less perfect than God
e) God

4. Not a. If I had created myself, I would have made myself perfect.
5. Not b. This does not solve the problem. If I am a dependent being, I need to be continually sustained by another.
6. Not c. This leads to an infinite regress.
7. Not d. The idea of perfection that exists in me cannot have originated from a non-perfect being.
8. Therefore, e. God exists.


Please take time to consider these concepts carefully, as we're dealing with very heavy material here. If this post bears fruit, I will be more than happy to take it further.

[betplom]

Argument 1
Argument 2

I believe that we as mortals are not capable of understanding/solving existence questions, because we use human logic and humans didn't create the universe we inhabit, some other entity/force did, and it/they/whatever obviously is operating at a much higher level than we are.

There are many "theories" but I don't believe any of them, because none can ever be proven, this makes them fiction/speculation and not worth arguing about, no human can ever be correct regarding this topic.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

I believe Einstein said it best:

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this"

[pavyracer]

Why can't we accept that nothing was created by anyone, God or aliens. I believe that nothing was created and was always being here through infinity. This is why in mathematics we use a symbol for infinity and not a number. Just because we know how life is created now does not mean that life was created by a high power. Life was always here through infinite number of years.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

What's really amusing is when people try argue against the Big Bang by asking what came before - not understanding that by definition there is no "before" the beginning of time.

[moneyline]

In order for the Big Bang theory to take place, SOMETHING had to already be ... why can't we inquire what came before and, more importantly, where it came from?

(oops, I know -- it's because that something already being here is where the atheists place their faith)

[Matt Rain]

There is no "nothing" either in the Big Bang model. It's the explosion of an infinitely hot and dense singularity that started the stopwatch, so to speak. Which doesn't make much more sense than God, honestly.

I say "They" created us. The same They that conspired to kill Kennedy.

[l7ustin]

Whats the difference moneyline?

Either god came from nowhere

or

The universe came from nowhere

Why is model A better than model B?

Something did come from nowhere moneyline, you are wrong

[Matt Rain]

In order for the Big Bang theory to take place, SOMETHING had to already be ... why can't we inquire what came before and, more importantly, where it came from?

(oops, I know -- it's because that something already being here is where the atheists place their faith)

Don't be stubborn. Read about the Big Bang model. There is no "nothing" nor "something already being here". Space and time do not make sense "before" the Big Bang. There is no "before" the Big Bang, just the Bang itself. We'll get back to you on the "how", "why", "where".

[HedgeHog]

i always thought jesus is the bastard kid of god and a hooker.

I thought Mary was a virgin--not a whore.

[apk2k6]

But Rain there has to be a definite answer! We have to know! .....

Moneyline, maybe we are far from figuring out all of the answers, we don't have to know everything right now. If you believe that Earth is 6,000-7,000 years old or whatever, then I feel sorry for you. Faith has blinded you.

I think faith is fine for people, but not when it slows our country down. It's mixed in politics and it shouldn't be. For example, people are worried about same sex marriage because the "Bible" says it shouldn't be that way.

If you would like to be ignorant and not ask questions(not speaking to anyone directly), then fine, but don't try to push it on me. When I used to go to church with my parents, that's what I hated most. I couldn't just go and leave, people pushed and pushed for you to do this or that with the church. It's a freaking social gathering, that makes lots of money!

I suggest everyone see the movie Religulous, it was great.

[HedgeHog]

I'm confused about this "Big Bang" Theory. Is this how God impregnated the virgin Mary?

PS I'm going to Hell for asking this!

[zentiense]

Jesus christ fellas -- didn't y'all know that the universe was fvckin created from fvckin Vishnu's navel? Lord fvuckin Brahma just sprung up one day and said HEY GUYS I'M GOING TO CREATE EVERYTHING NOW. And BAM. Fvckin Hindoos knew this 1500 years ago -- why can't we wrap our fvckin degenerate heads around it?

All fvckin mankind was fvckin created from Purusha's goddamn body too. Get a load of that. Enough with this Descartes nonsense. Get a fvckin Rg Veda pal.

[BGboothA]

Wow, never knew so many cappers where atheists!! I love it!!! Congrats to all of you for loving life for what it is.

So here is my Christian Question of the day....

If Jesus was 'born' for the sole purpose of dying for our sins.....why are Christians against suicide and euthanasia? Kinda ironic isn't it. (sorry off topic, but my atheist thought of the day thanks to Jesus and Mo.)