Good Value on Joel Embiid to win the MVP at +1600

[thomorino]

I've never seen a player get as dominated as Jokic did. Embiid wouldn't even let him shoot.

It was like an adult telling a child what he can and can't do.

[thomorino]

Sixers need to get Harris back into scoring mode. Harden needs to be the pg, maybe have Maxey a 6th man. Clearly chemistry issues for them -growing pains.

Agree with you that Philly is at their best when Harden is a distrbutor and Embiid is the primary scorer. Philly bench is trash, but benching Maxey when he's only recently struggled sends the wrong message. I"d bench Harris not Maxey.

[stevenash]

They played Orlando the night before

Lying again.
Go figure

[asiagambler]

If you put Embiid and Jokic literally head to head in a game like last night, then Embiid will almost always dominate. It is just not a good matchup for Jokic

But if you look at what they do over a season or even perhaps career and look at who's more valuable to their team, that's easy- it's Jokic. He's carried his team full of bums without Murray and Porter for the entire year to a terrific record (and to be fair, Embiid hasn't had another all-star on his team this year either before Harden)

With all that said, the MVP award is never about anything except what select voters decide and it is Embiid's to lose

[stevenash]

If you put Embiid and Jokic literally head to head in a game like last night, then Embiid will almost always dominate. It is just not a good matchup for Jokic

But if you look at what they do over a season or even perhaps career and look at who's more valuable to their team, that's easy- it's Jokic. He's carried his team full of bums without Murray and Porter for the entire year to a terrific record (and to be fair, Embiid hasn't had another all-star on his team this year either before Harden)

The point I've been trying to ram home.
Yet some fail to grasp that concept.

[shadymcgrady]

Final word Shady, and I'll move on.
I don't want a riff with you, I enjoy my chats with you, you know a thing or two about a thing or two, and I've picked up a thing a two along the way, which is rare these days around here.

It ain't trolling if you can back it up, back it up with truth.

And all I'm doing is letting him know it.

Good day.

? Nash? I was just joking around with philly, nothing directed at you at all but I can include you if you're game

[asiagambler]

The point I've been trying to ram home.
Yet some fail to grasp that concept.

Well, I would even say Embiid is a better overall player than Jokic but Jokic is still more valuable to his team

But they are two great players and the margin is razor thin IMO

[vitterd]

If you put Embiid and Jokic literally head to head in a game like last night, then Embiid will almost always dominate. It is just not a good matchup for Jokic

But if you look at what they do over a season or even perhaps career and look at who's more valuable to their team, that's easy- it's Jokic. He's carried his team full of bums without Murray and Porter for the entire year to a terrific record (and to be fair, Embiid hasn't had another all-star on his team this year either before Harden)

With all that said, the MVP award is never about anything except what select voters decide and it is Embiid's to lose

If I’m starting a team to win this year and next 2 years…..I’m going Embiid over Jokic. I think long term maybe Jokic because he plays no defense and has almost zero chance of getting injured because he plays a soft game. So you’ll get longer service time from Jokic. But you can see that Embiid is clearly the better overall player and it’s not that close.

[thomorino]

If you put Embiid and Jokic literally head to head in a game like last night, then Embiid will almost always dominate. It is just not a good matchup for Jokic

But if you look at what they do over a season or even perhaps career and look at who's more valuable to their team, that's easy- it's Jokic. He's carried his team full of bums without Murray and Porter for the entire year to a terrific record (and to be fair, Embiid hasn't had another all-star on his team this year either before Harden)

With all that said, the MVP award is never about anything except what select voters decide and it is Embiid's to lose

That's just not true. Embiid averages significantly more points per game than Jokic, Jokic's usage rate is extremely high because teams don't double him the way they double Embiid, because Embiid is clearly the better player, but Embiid defends at an elite level, he's been an all-defensive team player 3 times.

Jokic has never been on an all-defensive team because he's not a good defender.

You aren't account for 2 key factors, defense and strength of schedule. The West is bad this year, the East is great.

[USCPHILLYGUY]

Final word Shady, and I'll move on.
I don't want a riff with you, I enjoy my chats with you, you know a thing or two about a thing or two, and I've picked up a thing a two along the way, which is rare these days around here.

It ain't trolling if you can back it up, back it up with truth.

And all I'm doing is letting him know it.

Good day.

Nasher relax. Just having some fun.

[stevenash]

Nasher relax. Just having some fun.

All good, I've moved on.

I have 21 days to get my MLB shit together that I need about 30 days to complete, so I won't be around much anymore these days anyways.

[IBetYou]

Don't get all this Embiid dominated Jokic talk. It was Jokic who got Embiid into foul trouble and out of the game! You can see on a play here & there Jokic struggle to get a shot over the taller opponent but overall he had a greater impact on this game than Embiid -the game really turned late in that 2nd frame when Embiid was forced out on a Jokic pump-fake.

[thomorino]

Don't get all this Embiid dominated Jokic talk. It was Jokic who got Embiid into foul trouble and out of the game! You can see on a play here & there Jokic struggle to get a shot over the taller opponent but overall he had a greater impact on this game than Embiid -the game really turned late in that 2nd frame when Embiid was forced out on a Jokic pump-fake.

That's just wrong. Completely wrong.

Again, Embiid was +10, Jokic was -3.

Embiid dominated when he was in, he dominated Jokic. Jokic couldn't get a shot up.

[juicername]

That's just wrong. Completely wrong.

Again, Embiid was +10, Jokic was -3.

Embiid dominated when he was in, he dominated Jokic. Jokic couldn't get a shot up.

Wrong.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you look like a fool when trying to argue against facts.

Are you incapable of posting a single number/record without embellishing them in your favor?

[thomorino]

Wrong.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you look like a fool when trying to argue against facts.

Are you incapable of posting a single number/record without embellishing them in your favor?

No, it isn't wrong. Embiid was +10 and Jokic was -3 before there were some meaningless basket at the end when the game was over.

[juicername]

No, it isn't wrong. Embiid was +10 and Jokic was -3 before there were some meaningless basket at the end when the game was over.

It was a 2-4 point game all the way from 5 minutes left until the end. When did these meaningless baskets happen?

[Wrongside]

Man, Jokic outclassed him yesterday. Doncic should win MVP

[thomorino]

It was a 2-4 point game all the way from 5 minutes left until the end. When did these meaningless baskets happen?

The way plus-minus works is that it has nothing to do with how your team is doing when the players are not in the game. I see you don't understand that.

Jokic sat the first 6 minutes of the 4th quarter, that's when Denver went on their big run.

Again, when Embiid was in the game, he dominated. He dominated Jokic, and the team dominated. So the fact it was a close game the final 5 minutes has nothing to do with plus-minus or how Embiid performed against Jokic.

Embiid was +10 and Jokic was -3, just as I said, before one meaningless basket at the end of the game. My numbers are correct.

I mean, plus-minus isn't complicated.

[juicername]

The way plus-minus works is that it has nothing to do with how your team is doing when the players are not in the game. I see you don't understand that.

Jokic sat the first 6 minutes of the 4th quarter, that's when Denver went on their big run.

Again, when Embiid was in the game, he dominated. He dominated Jokic, and the team dominated. So the fact it was a close game the final 5 minutes has nothing to do with plus-minus or how Embiid performed against Jokic.

Embiid was +10 and Jokic was -3, just as I said, before one meaningless basket at the end of the game. My numbers are correct.

I mean, plus-minus isn't complicated.

Yet you don't seem to understand it, and then have to move the goalposts instead of admitting you were wrong, as usual. Something is seriously wrong with you.

[IBetYou]

That's just wrong. Completely wrong.

Again, Embiid was +10, Jokic was -3.

Embiid dominated when he was in, he dominated Jokic. Jokic couldn't get a shot up.

Jokic scored an and-1 at 1:56 of the 2nd to draw a 3rd foul on Embiid and thereby force him to the bench. That's a FACT. Hardly dominating someone when you're getting into foul trouble trying to guard them. Jokic hit a three before that, was scoring on p&r action...

As for meaningless baskets at the end... what the hell?! Sixers actually held the lead on Harden FTs at 2:15, so the plus/ minus of Jokic was best at the most crucial point in the game. Fairly evenly matched HU I'd say.

[stevenash]

^
Did you know Jokic leads the league in +/- ?

The +/- metric was developed by Daniel Myers, read his book when you get a chance, it's informative.
+/- is actually know as (BPM) or Box Plus Minus

If I get a chance I'll break down how BPM is calculated so the OP can fully understand how math works and how +/- works.

Here's the updated as of this morning BPM or +/- link.
(note the Win Share column as well)
Jokic dwarfs Embid in that value metric as well.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm

If the OP wants to argue the +/- metric on a daily basis, fine, but he's losing (soundly) in that debate.

*not for nothing*
If Embid is such a low post beast, explain why Jokic averages more points a game down low (in the paint)
A lot more.
Jokic is third in the league in that metric, Embid? Eighteenth.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/misc/?CF=MIN*GE*10&sort=PTS_PAINT&dir=-1

The only reason why Embid averages 29+ a game is because he takes almost 20 shots per game.
He missed more than half of them.

Jokic's FG percentage is a demonstrative 88 points higher, clearly the better shooter.
Factor in Jokic has a major edge in assists and is outrebounding Embid, well, I rest my case.

Jokic's defensive metrics has improved this season to the point he's drawn just about equal to Embid on defense.

I'll be back later for my schooling, for now...
Class dismissed.

[USCPHILLYGUY]

Thought you were done?

[stevenash]

Thought you were done?

"so I won't be around much"
is the exact phrase I used.

Let's play the semantics game, shall we?
'Much' being the operative word here, and taken in context the way I applied it means 'not as often' as usual.

Now if I had say I'm done, period, that would be a different story, but I did not say that.

(no, not butt hurt Philly, just messing with ya)
I actually like you, if that means anything this being a nameless, faceless forum message board.
It's not like this is real life, this is Forumville, where anyone can play make pretend attorney.

[USCPHILLYGUY]

"so I won't be around much"
is the exact phrase I used.

Let's play the semantics game, shall we?
'Much' being the operative word here, and taken in context the way I applied it means 'not as often' as usual.

Now if I had say I'm done, period, that would be a different story, but I did not say that.

(no, not butt hurt Philly, just messing with ya)
I actually like you, if that means anything this being a nameless, faceless forum message board.
It's not like this is real life, this is Forumville, where anyone can play make pretend attorney.

Just busting them nasher. You’re ok in my book

[stevenash]

Just busting them nasher. You’re ok in my book

I know, lol
We're seasoned SBR vets, that's who we are, that's what we do, bust balls, and we're good at it.
Cheers


Seriously though, MLB is my bread and butter, and all this movement is breaking my balls.
Time consuming to keep it all up to date.

[thomorino]

Yet you don't seem to understand it, and then have to move the goalposts instead of admitting you were wrong, as usual. Something is seriously wrong with you.

I just explained why you are wrong - maybe you can't afford a computer. Just got to www.espn.com. You can use a computer at a library.

[thomorino]

The reason Jokic has a good plus minus is because the West is terrible. He's not good against top teams which is why Embiid dominated him.

Again, Embiid completely dominated Jokic in every way - and it wasn't close.

[thomorino]

Again, Embiid was +10 on the court, he dominated. It wasn't close either.

[stevenash]

I just explained why you are wrong - maybe you can't afford a computer. Just got to www.espn.com. You can use a computer at a library.

You have no idea how BPM works.
No clue.
Clueless,

[thomorino]

You have no idea how BPM works.
No clue.
Clueless,

I understand basketball at a much higher level than you.

One thing about stats, like BPM, Per, a lot of the stats you try to quote, you have to contextualize them and adjust them using certain metrics as well as common sense.

The reason you are going to lose this debate, as usual, is you didn't know how to evaluate and apply various analytical metrics.

[chargers4222]

Tremendous performance by the soon-to-be back-to-back MVP, Nikola Jokic. Completely dominating Joel Embiid in every sense of the word. Really secured his status as the best center in the NBA. Congratulations Nikola.

[jjgold]

The race is very tight we still got time you could make a case for like three guys

[thomorino]

Tremendous performance by the soon-to-be back-to-back MVP, Nikola Jokic. Completely dominating Joel Embiid in every sense of the word. Really secured his status as the best center in the NBA. Congratulations Nikola.

Embiid dominated Jokic in every way, Philly was, again, +10 with Embiid on the court.

[stevenash]

The race is very tight we still got time you could make a case for like three guys

I just read in one of the other trades where Embid's hip is hurting, but I don't see any injury designation next to his name.
If he's hurt, Rivers is 100 percent to blame.

[thomorino]

I just read in one of the other trades where Embid's hip is hurting, but I don't see any injury designation next to his name.
If he's hurt, Rivers is 100 percent to blame.

Its late in the year, no one is 100%. Just stop.