Obama. Did not vote for him but I'm coming around

[losturmarbles]

Ah yes, another prediction that won't come true.






Back when our nation was growing exponentially in the mid-20th century, income tax rates were exorbitant.

These are marginal tax rates.

1986 tax reforms created 2 different flat taxes. Since then the tax code has since been amended around 11000 times. They still come up all sorts of ways to tax that top bracket, all of which are not counted in this sham of a graph.

[losturmarbles]

Reaganomics is the reason our wealth disparity gap is the largest since the late 1920s. Turns out, the money didn't trickle down quite like the people claimed it would. And that doesn't explain why our best growth periods were when the rich were paying high taxes [Reagan only put a temporary band-aid on the problem while tripling the deficit].






Stock market crashed in '87. Reagan was still president.

It's not the government's job to manage disparities. It's the individual's.

Wrong again, our best growth periods were when there was no income tax.

How can anyone with a rational mind think that by taxing productivity that you will grow and increase wealth. Yet this is the entire premise to your argument.

[dodger33]

It's not the government's job to manage disparities.

If every person in America understood this we would be a near perfect utopia.

[dodger33]

Losturmarbles you are very knowledgeable my man. I hope so people take the time to actually read and understand your posts.

[pavyracer]

Pavy, stop spreading mis-information.
The only part of your post that has any merit is the part about the cost of policing the world and nation building.
We have over 900 military bases in other countries. And that's about 900 too many.

And I'm not sure where you get "Even when the country was founded after the independence from the British Empire the citizens were heavily taxed and driven to bankruptcy." ??? Please do tell. Considering one of the main forces of rebellion was to escape the taxes and money manipulation imposed by Britain to pay for their national debt from their wars with France.

And everyone pays taxes? Not according the IRS. 50% of tax filers have a negative tax liability, meaning that after credits and deductions, they owed negative tax. They get everything they payed in during the year back plus some more.

And save the whole diatribe about bigger effect on their lives. That's bullshit. And besides that, your complete argument there is based on an illogical premise. The theme of Marx and Engels, From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Maybe you should be complaining about the SS and Medicare tax, since it's a FLAT rate of 15%.

Truth is the income tax is nothing but government theft.
Let's say someone sees you that video of you racing pavycars down your street in front of your house. They come to you and want you to train their kid on how to pavy-race. So they pay you $200 for your service for a couple of hours. Now how much of that money do you owe the government? 40%??? What if instead of paying you $200, you made a deal that the guy would do some landscape work for you. What is the difference? Do you now owe the government 40% of the value of his service and he owes the government 40% of the value of yours? NO. It was an exchange of goods and services, just like it was for the $200. An exchange of something of value for wages, ie income.
We don't need an income tax to run the federal government. 100% of it goes to pay the interest on the national debt (which increases on average 4 BILLION a day). And the debt is nothing but a manipulation of our currency created by the federal reserve. 1913- A private bank is given the power to create the only legal currency and loan it to the government at interest. 20 years later, the government is bankrupted. They confiscate all the gold at $20/ounce. Then inflate the price to $35/ounce. In 1975, they make it legal to own gold again. Now gold is around $1200/ounce, meanwhile the US Dollar has lost about 95% of it's purchasing power.
We didn't have income tax for over a century and we became the richest country in the world because of it. Now we are nothing but slaves to government who use class warfare to justify stealing more of the wealth that individuals produce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays'_Rebellion

This is for the taxes after the independence.

OK as far as the taxes I'm for them. Without taxes you have no interstates, bridges, dams, airports, schools, etc. Do you want all the roads in the US to be privately owned and being toll roads where they charge you $50 per trip? Do you want private companies to own the dams and distribute water? We can eliminate all taxes and pass everything to the private sector where they can own all the highways, dams, etc. So instead of paying income tax to the government you will be paying higher water bills, tolls, airport fees. I guess you can buy stock in these companies and make some money but you would still be burning money for all the stuff you get for free now from the government instead of paying taxes.

[Albert Pujols]

I was in Amsterdam when he held a short news conference. People scurried and crowded around the TV to get a glimpse of the new American President. For the first time in a while I was proud of my President.

I dont agree with many of his policies. But I am one conservative that can honestly say I'm glad he is the President of the USA.

Then you aren't conservative.

[SBR_John]

Then you aren't conservative.

Well I've voted Republican 98% of the time and worked for Reagan/Bush campaign twice and even met Ron. If ones narrow view of a conservative is I have to match my views with the neo-conservatives or I'm not one then yep, I'm not and then you're right. I believe in low taxes, preferably no taxes, and strong defense and don't care much about the rest or even care what I am.

[Extra Innings]

losturmarbles for PRESIDENT

[Extra Innings]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays'_Rebellion This is for the taxes after the independence. OK as far as the taxes I'm for them. Without taxes you have no interstates, bridges, dams, airports, schools, etc. Do you want all the roads in the US to be privately owned and being toll roads where they charge you $50 per trip? Do you want private companies to own the dams and distribute water? We can eliminate all taxes and pass everything to the private sector where they can own all the highways, dams, etc. So instead of paying income tax to the government you will be paying higher water bills, tolls, airport fees. I guess you can buy stock in these companies and make some money but you would still be burning money for all the stuff you get for free now from the government instead of paying taxes.

Pavy...I'm all for taxes...for the things you listed.

[Albert Pujols]

Well I've voted Republican 98% of the time and worked for Reagan/Bush campaign twice and even met Ron. If ones narrow view of a conservative is I have to match my views with the neo-conservatives or I'm not one then yep, I'm not and then you're right. I believe in low taxes, preferably no taxes, and strong defense and don't care much about the rest or even care what I am.

None of us will have any money left to tax when Obama is done spending.

[Extra Innings]

I am glad I work in the Human Services Field...Cash only with my clients and hell....you all will be paying for my health insurance (which costs me about 800.00 a month now) in a few years

[chrisharvard01]

This post is a perfect example of how the feelings can easily get in a way of thinking and that is the reason why propaganda is so much effective. The Europeans were expressing the same type of interest to Putin when he came to power. It takes time for the hysteria to calm down and the reality to kick in.

He is an idiot who can't make a five minute speech without a teleprompter. He is corrupt and has surrounded himself with corrupt people. I'm sorry, but anybody who would call themselves conservative and say they are proud of Obama is, to put it bluntly, a fukkin retard. How could a conservative be for nationalizing private industry, Mussolini style. I certainly hope this corrupt fag President meets the same fate as Mussolini.

..

[ttwarrior1]

obama is black, doesn't look like any black ive ever seen

[losturmarbles]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays'_Rebellion

This is for the taxes after the independence.

Under the Article's of Confederation, the federal government had no power to tax. You're not talking about income taxes, you're talking about Massachusetts property taxes. At the time, the state legislature was composed mostly of merchants from Boston and other port cities. So they made the state tax laws favorable to the merchants and high on the farm owners. There was also procreditor policies that payment could be demanded in gold and silver. Basically the state legislators passed laws that undermined farmers' finiances. There was no debt relief legislation like filing "bankruptcy", and you could be taken to court and put in debtor's prison.

OK as far as the taxes I'm for them. Without taxes you have no interstates, bridges, dams, airports, schools, etc. Do you want all the roads in the US to be privately owned and being toll roads where they charge you $50 per trip? Do you want private companies to own the dams and distribute water? We can eliminate all taxes and pass everything to the private sector where they can own all the highways, dams, etc. So instead of paying income tax to the government you will be paying higher water bills, tolls, airport fees. I guess you can buy stock in these companies and make some money but you would still be burning money for all the stuff you get for free now from the government instead of paying taxes.

Of course you're for taxes, you have no use for freedom. You are exactly who Dostoyevsky's Grand Inqusitor refers to, 'In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet, and say to us, "Make us your slaves, but feed us."'

Save your strawman arguments about the private sector. So what is the government Pavy? And what is it suppose to be?

Everything you just said is already happening. State and local governments all over the country are selling government infrastructure and public roads to FOREIGN private interests. Not only that, in order for the fed to create more money it must sell bonds to China or whoever is dumb (or smart?) enough to buy them. So who exactly do you think is going to be bailling us out?

The government is suppose to be a representation of you as an individual. IT ISN'T. It represents the interests of globalist elites and the corporations they conspire with. And the state government have their own problems, first they're the federal government's bitch and have to appease it's wishes. Secondly, the back room deals with private interests are even more scandalous than the federal government, since there's little public oversight.

Government functions and roles are pretty limited and can be completely funded by that apportioned function of government. The problem is currently most governments (city, states, federal) are bloated and inefficient. Spending other people's money and finding new ways to create more unneeded government jobs.

[chrisharvard01]

i am american, pay taxes, and own a small business.

so, thats 3 strikes towards being able to support obama's policies.

[Extra Innings]

Plain and Simple....how has the recession impacted GOVERNMENT unemployment figures. It hasn't because they don't care.

[RibbedTrojan]

If we want our country back we have to get ready now.And destroy these democrats before they destroy us!

[Extra Innings]

If we want our country back we have to get ready now.And destroy these democrats before they destroy us!

Sending a message in November will do.

[Hotdiggity11]

These are marginal tax rates.

1986 tax reforms created 2 different flat taxes. Since then the tax code has since been amended around 11000 times. They still come up all sorts of ways to tax that top bracket, all of which are not counted in this sham of a graph.

It's the marginal income tax rates.

[Hotdiggity11]

It's not the government's job to manage disparities. It's the individual's.

Wrong again, our best growth periods were when there was no income tax.

How can anyone with a rational mind think that by taxing productivity that you will grow and increase wealth. Yet this is the entire premise to your argument.

1. Actually, disparity of wealth is very important to control. And yes, the government has a lot to do with the current disparity along with private business. Corporations have essentially controlled Congress for decades due to excessive lobbying.


2. No, we have had permanent income taxes since the 1910s. We became a world power in the 20th century, specifically after WW2. How did you get that we had our best growth when there were NO income taxes? In the 19th century, we were a near isolationist country that couldn't even compete with many European countries on economic and military might. Throughout the 20th century, we became a world power along with the USSR and, eventually, the sole world power. You can claim all you want that income tax didn't lead to this prosperity but don't try to claim we had our best prosperity when we had no income taxes because that is blatantly false.

[dodger33]

Pavvy the government has proven they cannot run a smooth operation. Have you ever walked into a post office, dmv, or tried to call the IRS? I am a huge believer in privatizing education. There are tons of willing teachers that do not have jobs right now and there are tons of shitty teachers with jobs because they are not allowed to fire them unless they fondle or shoot a kid.

[Goat Milk]

He connects with normal citizens like me.He takes actions which we in our discussion used to say are sensible and why do politicians with all the army of intelligent people cannot seee.

He is breaking down the social barriers like Lincoln did, he is bringing good will from across the globe.. Yes, he shouldnt have bent whicl greeting the king,,Big deal.. Lets not make a fuss about something which is a minor gaffe.

He is delivering what he promised to the public during his election campaign. Republicans are shocked by this saying he is taking too many things in one go, why not ? We have th ebest technology, best brains and determination to succeed.. Why can he not tackle everything in one go.. So for the simple reason I think he has not backed off what he promised in the elections and following it up gives me trust and there have been fewer presidents who have set out to do so much 8-9 major issues all at the same time...

Yes its only first 100 days but if he can replicate even half of what he has done in first 100 days during his first term , I am sure America will project a better image across the world and will be a better nation.

what exactly has obama done? immigration and the economy- two of our biggest national issues and he has done nothing yet. But I guess policies are still in the works and it takes time to heal, but thats not going to happen with these puny small business tax cuts and incentives for first time house buyers that have a ton of bullshit clauses that hardly make it an incentive at all. This guy is letting Muslims stream into the US. I have Muslim friends, but this guy Obama DOES NOT understand (extremist) Islamic motivations. This isn't about Jihad. And just because your a liberal doesn't mean you sohuld fear to take a conservative approach at times. Guy has a desire to remain popular, especially with the younger generation.

A year later, the only thing we really know about Obama is that he is a great speaker. He has done nothing yet, still has a done of work to do. Guy is a great communicator, but he is not feared. Needs to make a statement at some point and stop bowing down to foreign leaders.

[Grandmaster B]

anyone would be better than Bush...Palin or McCain

[wtf]

I was in Amsterdam when he held a short news conference. People scurried and crowded around the TV to get a glimpse of the new American President. For the first time in a while I was proud of my President.

I dont agree with many of his policies. But I am one conservative that can honestly say I'm glad he is the President of the USA.

they would have done the same if SNOOKI was on tv

[rkelly110]

Never thought I'd see the day. We made history either way. A black pres. or a white pres.
with a woman vise pres. I'm a Dem. but had to vote Ind.

Not too thrilled w/ what we have, since his winning, I'm (still) out of work.

[DwightShrute]

anyone would be better than Bush...Palin or McCain

Would do a better job than Obama

[losturmarbles]

1. Actually, disparity of wealth is very important to control. And yes, the government has a lot to do with the current disparity along with private business. Corporations have essentially controlled Congress for decades due to excessive lobbying.


2. No, we have had permanent income taxes since the 1910s. We became a world power in the 20th century, specifically after WW2. How did you get that we had our best growth when there were NO income taxes? In the 19th century, we were a near isolationist country that couldn't even compete with many European countries on economic and military might. Throughout the 20th century, we became a world power along with the USSR and, eventually, the sole world power. You can claim all you want that income tax didn't lead to this prosperity but don't try to claim we had our best prosperity when we had no income taxes because that is blatantly false.

1. In a free society, there is nothing to control. Any disparity is the result of the choices of said individuals. Controlling or managing them is nothing more than a subtle way of advocating wealth redistribution. The government's job is to uphold the law and preserve equal opportunity for the individuals, not to maintain equal results of individuals' choices.

2. Did you just say USSR? The USSR was prosperous? The USSR Failed because it had no private sector to subsidize the monetary black hole of nationalized industries. You can hang your hat on the massive expansion of the military-industrial complex, yet this is the same government-corporation alliance you denounce in your first point. And aggregating the wealth of individuals to build a strong military doesn't make you rich. I can go sign a mortgage for a Mansion on some exotic island, take out a loan on a rolls royce, and max out my VC card with dolce and gabbana. Am I rich? No, I'm in massive debt. And just because our government borrowed massive amounts of money from the fed and mortgaged the lives of it's citizens through income taxes, it doesn't make the country rich.
We became the richest country on the planet before we ever had an income tax. All wealth is created by individuals, not governments. We had the highest standard of living before we ever had the government trying to manage disparities. Every government program ever introduced to fix a certain social problem has had the exact opposite effect on the problem it was intended to fix.
The USSR was a centralized bureaucratic State. There was almost nothing that citizens could do in their own lives that was not controlled or regulated by the Soviet Communist party. Sound familiar?

[robertg]

I was in Amsterdam when he held a short news conference. People scurried and crowded around the TV to get a glimpse of the new American President. For the first time in a while I was proud of my President.

I dont agree with many of his policies. But I am one conservative that can honestly say I'm glad he is the President of the USA.

please tell us your joking. you've got to be smarter than that.

[dodger33]

losturmarbles is owning this thread.

[Extra Innings]

No has a response to Marbles....he responds and people leave....lolz

[Hotdiggity11]

1. In a free society, there is nothing to control. Any disparity is the result of the choices of said individuals. Controlling or managing them is nothing more than a subtle way of advocating wealth redistribution. The government's job is to uphold the law and preserve equal opportunity for the individuals, not to maintain equal results of individuals' choices.

2. Did you just say USSR? The USSR was prosperous? The USSR Failed because it had no private sector to subsidize the monetary black hole of nationalized industries. You can hang your hat on the massive expansion of the military-industrial complex, yet this is the same government-corporation alliance you denounce in your first point. And aggregating the wealth of individuals to build a strong military doesn't make you rich. I can go sign a mortgage for a Mansion on some exotic island, take out a loan on a rolls royce, and max out my VC card with dolce and gabbana. Am I rich? No, I'm in massive debt. And just because our government borrowed massive amounts of money from the fed and mortgaged the lives of it's citizens through income taxes, it doesn't make the country rich.
We became the richest country on the planet before we ever had an income tax. All wealth is created by individuals, not governments. We had the highest standard of living before we ever had the government trying to manage disparities. Every government program ever introduced to fix a certain social problem has had the exact opposite effect on the problem it was intended to fix.
The USSR was a centralized bureaucratic State. There was almost nothing that citizens could do in their own lives that was not controlled or regulated by the Soviet Communist party. Sound familiar?

1. First of all, when governmental policies are responsible for disparity, yes, it is the job of the government to correct it. And the government, under both Republicans and Democrats, have more concern for corporations and lobbyists than they do for the average American.


2. First of all, I never claimed the USSR was "prosperous." I said it was a world power along with the United States. This is not disputable, after WW2, the United States and USSR were recognized as the two world powers that competed against each other with global alliances such as the Warsaw Pact and NATO revolving around these two countries. Please don't distort my words.


Secondly, no, we were not the most prosperous country in the world prior to income taxes. In fact, we didn't get that recognition until after World War II. Throughout most of our history, we were a near isolationist country while European countries like Great Britain and France were constantly expanding throughout the world.

[Data]

1. First of all, when governmental policies are responsible for disparity, yes, it is the job of the government to correct it.

Right, that is why the government must be working on creating fair rules and not on changing the results once the game has already ended.

And the government, under both Republicans and Democrats, have more concern for corporations and lobbyists than they do for the average American.

Right, and this will not change as long as the government can become that corrupted. The only way to change this is by NOT giving them money and limiting their role in distributing wealth. You position is logically flawed. You realize that the government is corrupt yet want to give them more money and power.

[BEANTOWNJIM]

WELL BOYS LIKE I ALWAYS SAY MAN THESE COLORED PEOPLE CAN SPEND IT WHEN THEY HAVE IT.

MICHELLE OBAMA TOOK THE KIDS TO SPAIN LAST WEEK FOR 5 DAYS IT COST THE U.S. TAX PAYERS ABOUT 3 MILLION DOLLARS SHE HAD 70 SECRET SERVICE AGENTS AND RENTED 70 ROOMS F-CK THESE NIGERIANS THEY ARE KILLING THE COUNTRY SHE ALSO TOOK AIR FORCE 2 TO SPAIN WHAT THE F-CK THE F-CKING NIGERIANS DONT LIKE TO FLY COACH ANYMORE

BEANTOWNJIM IS NOT A RACIST HE IS A REALIST

[jjgold]

Anyone that voted for Obama now realizes what a massive mistake it was

Even some blacks realizing it

[wtf]

WELL BOYS LIKE I ALWAYS SAY MAN THESE COLORED PEOPLE CAN SPEND IT WHEN THEY HAVE IT.

MICHELLE OBAMA TOOK THE KIDS TO SPAIN LAST WEEK FOR 5 DAYS IT COST THE U.S. TAX PAYERS ABOUT 3 MILLION DOLLARS SHE HAD 70 SECRET SERVICE AGENTS AND RENTED 70 ROOMS F-CK THESE NIGERIANS THEY ARE KILLING THE COUNTRY SHE ALSO TOOK AIR FORCE 2 TO SPAIN WHAT THE F-CK THE F-CKING NIGERIANS DONT LIKE TO FLY COACH ANYMORE

BEANTOWNJIM IS NOT A RACIST HE IS A REALIST

you see the SPIN they put on this shit? she was there to console her friend over some dead husband crap, like they dont have telephones in spain

then you get all the negros sayin, hey mo fo she be deserving some time off, sure go ahead take all the time you want, ON YOUR OWN FUKIN DIME