Obama. Did not vote for him but I'm coming around

[pavyracer]

What programming do you recommend?

ESPN, ESPN2, Fox Soccer Channel, FoxSportsSouth.

These are the only channels I watch. I do not watch FoxNews, CNN, MSNBC and all the other propaganda sites.

[Hotdiggity11]

ESPN, ESPN2, Fox Soccer Channel, FoxSportsSouth.

These are the only channels I watch. I do not watch FoxNews, CNN, MSNBC and all the other propaganda sites.

Solid choices.

[The fiddler]

Pavy, stop spreading mis-information.
The only part of your post that has any merit is the part about the cost of policing the world and nation building.
We have over 900 military bases in other countries. And that's about 900 too many.

Actually, the number is close to 1000 now. And I agree with your assessment that it is way too many. I think we should have a handful in a few isolated strategic spots...but that's about it.

And I'm not sure where you get "Even when the country was founded after the independence from the British Empire the citizens were heavily taxed and driven to bankruptcy." ??? Please do tell. Considering one of the main forces of rebellion was to escape the taxes and money manipulation imposed by Britain to pay for their national debt from their wars with France.

Having a surtax placed on every American foreign trade siphoned off by GB was in fact the leading cause of the revolution in the 1770's. The real "tea partiers" brought this to a head in Boston, when they refused to play ball with the East Indies Tea Company. But in this case....it wasn't just the tax surcharge as most history books allege. The WIRTC was a present day oligopoly, and as such, charged exhorbitant prices (artificially fixed) due to the lack of free market competition.

And everyone pays taxes? Not according the IRS. 50% of tax filers have a negative tax liability, meaning that after credits and deductions, they owed negative tax. They get everything they payed in during the year back plus some more.

Your percentage of 50% is bogus on 2 fronts. The actual percentage is 47% not 50% and is horribly distorted in that it includes children and the disabled.

And save the whole diatribe about bigger effect on their lives. That's bullshit. And besides that, your complete argument there is based on an illogical premise. The theme of Marx and Engels, From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Maybe you should be complaining about the SS and Medicare tax, since it's a FLAT rate of 15%.

Whoa there slick...just whoa. Are you suggesting in some bizarro world that 98% of capitalist countries around the globe are proponents of Marx and Engels? Really? Because 98% of the capitalistic countries also have progressive income tax policies. We have had a progressive income tax ever since it's advent in 1913. We even had a progressive tax during the "better dead than red" talking point post WWII. And it was so progressive during that time frame...that the top marginal tax rate was 91% from 1945 through 1962. And....the country boomed economically during that period. Don't ever equate a progressive tax structure to communism. Because your argument is utter bullshit.

And as a footnote...payroll taxes (15.3% which encompasses both social security and medicare) is a complete misnomer. The payroll "tax" program is not a tax program at all...but a a forced annuity program...a forced savings account program...that was designed to be returned to the person paying in...and not to be used as income taxes are used. Unfortunately, the government ****** that up as well.

Truth is the income tax is nothing but government theft.

Hyperbole at it's finest. In the modern world, there are many good reasons to collect from the masses to improve the overall society. Way too many to mention. What is true theft, is the expansion of the government without paying for it as you go. This is called generation theft....and is the biggest heist in human history. The national debt was somewhat manageable until Reagan started bowing down to the generals, and giving the military machine an open check book. Only this time, there was no plan at all in paying the amassed debts back....as we did following WWII.

Let's say someone sees you that video of you racing pavycars down your street in front of your house. They come to you and want you to train their kid on how to pavy-race. So they pay you $200 for your service for a couple of hours. Now how much of that money do you owe the government? 40%??? What if instead of paying you $200, you made a deal that the guy would do some landscape work for you. What is the difference? Do you now owe the government 40% of the value of his service and he owes the government 40% of the value of yours? NO. It was an exchange of goods and services, just like it was for the $200. An exchange of something of value for wages, ie income.

Not a good example if you are trying to prove a point. Tee it back up and try again. I'll give you a mulligan on that one.

We don't need an income tax to run the federal government. 100% of it goes to pay the interest on the national debt (which increases on average 4 BILLION a day).

How do you know what percentage of the national debt's interest gets paid for by the aggregate income tax collected? You don't...because the government's Treasury Department doesn't categorize these things.

And the debt is nothing but a manipulation of our currency created by the federal reserve. 1913-"

No...more twisted hyperbole from you. If your point had complete validity, then how do you explain the national debt that was held in the 1900's?

A private bank is given the power to create the only legal currency and loan it to the government at interest. 20 years later, the government is bankrupted.

I agree that the Federal Reserve is as crooked as it gets...and the private banker oligopoly controls the strings. But the great depression was caused by a myriad of factors...not just the Federal Reserve.

They confiscate all the gold at $20/ounce. Then inflate the price to $35/ounce. In 1975, they make it legal to own gold again. Now gold is around $1200/ounce, meanwhile the US Dollar has lost about 95% of it's purchasing power.

You once again have oversimplified a complex issue. Whereby you and I can agree that the US currency should be pegged to precious metals (in my view not just gold, but other metals as well), the dollar "losing" it's worth needs some footnoting. The monetary supply has also gone up 20 fold since 1913. As such, the purchasing power of the aggregate dollars has pretty much remained the same.

A quick example for you here...

In 1913, let's say a widget cost $1. On average, Americans had a weekly paycheck of $1. The American could buy the widget with his weekly paycheck.

In 2010, that same widget cost $20. A twenty fold increase as you rightly allege. But now the average weekly paycheck is $20. The American still pays his weekly paycheck for the same widget.

We didn't have income tax for over a century and we became the richest country in the world because of it. Now we are nothing but slaves to government who use class warfare to justify stealing more of the wealth that individuals produce.

Once again, you have taken one tiny factor in determining overall wealth. I can appreciate you reading the works of Dr. Paul....I voted for Dr. Paul myself. But you need to use your own brain in deciphering what is accurate and what is overblown. In the real world of economics, you cannot cite one factor and then draw conclusions. You just cannot do it.

As for your "class warfare" argument, you never read in depth the works of Adam Smith, the recognized father of laissez faire economics.

Just so you know...Smith warned that his "invisible hand" of allowing free markets to provide the lowest prices could and would be bastardized by the human spirit of greed...which is exactly what has happened today.

[losturmarbles]

1. I have been dodging your points for a while now. Screaming about "Ad Hominem" is ridiculous.


2. I have resorted to deflections because I lack a legitimate argument.

FYP.

[Hotdiggity11]

Another tactic used by people who have lost an argument I see. Changing up people's posts isn't clever. Keep going with your Ad Hominem.

[The fiddler]

Another tactic used by people who have lost an argument I see. Changing up people's posts isn't clever. Keep going with your Ad Hominem.

I agree. Lostmarbles is a pretty well read individual. It is pretty ridiculous in him resorting to such juvenile tactics.

After I hammered him into oblivion up above, I can see him pulling the same tactics with me.

[losturmarbles]

Another tactic used by people who have lost an argument I see. Changing up people's posts isn't clever. Keep going with your Ad Hominem.

Keep deflecting diggity. We're rooting for you.

[losturmarbles]

I agree. Lostmarbles is a pretty well read individual. It is pretty ridiculous in him resorting to such juvenile tactics.

After I hammered him into oblivion up above, I can see him pulling the same tactics with me.

Don't worry, I'm saving my best juvenile tactics for you fiddy.

Be back later.

hammered into oblivion right now

[Hotdiggity11]

I agree. Lostmarbles is a pretty well read individual. It is pretty ridiculous in him resorting to such juvenile tactics.

After I hammered him into oblivion up above, I can see him pulling the same tactics with me.

Agreed, sad to watch him do such things.

[curious]

Do you people honestly think that things would be any different if McCain was voted in instead of Obama? You are flippin retarded. If anything it would be 10 times worse with that trigger happy lunatic in power.

You are saying that Senator McCain is a "trigger happy lunatic"? Precisely what evidence do you have to support such a claim?

[pavyracer]

You are saying that Senator McCain is a "trigger happy lunatic"? Precisely what evidence do you have to support such a claim?

He crashed 5 jets while he was a pilot with the Air Force. 4 in training and 1 in combat without ever being hit by a single enemy bullet. That's incompetent.

[curious]

Reagan was one of the biggest jokes ever. I guess cut and running from Lebanon and selling weapons off to our enemies is "not taking any shit from anyone?"

You obviously were not a young adult during the Carter Depression, trying to find a job with 10% unemployment, 20% interest rates, 12% inflation rates, and 0 money supply. President Reagan saved us.

[DwightShrute]

[pavyracer]

Here is an example of how Republicans are retarded. They never complain about all the money being wasted on subsidizing incompetent farmers because 99% of the farmers vote for them in the red states but when they try to help people who don't make enough money to get some help with subsidizing housing they bitch and moan like their house is on fire because these people don't vote for them.

[Thor4140]

You obviously were not a young adult during the Carter Depression, trying to find a job with 10% unemployment, 20% interest rates, 12% inflation rates, and 0 money supply. President Reagan saved us.

Yeah he saved us all right. He is the one who got the ball rolling on this massive debt we have today

[Thor4140]

Here is an example of how Republicans are retarded. They never complain about all the money being wasted on subsidizing incompetent farmers because 99% of the farmers vote for them in the red states but when they try to help people who don't make enough money to get some help with subsidizing housing they bitch and moan like their house is on fire because these people don't vote for them.

Pavy, the defense budget is the biggest joke of them all. We spend more than all the other countries combined but when someone wants to cut it the republicans use the weak card and idiots fall for it. they use the weak card cause a lot of their buddies make a lot of money off of those useless defense contracts. Then we have the Democrats falling for it so they don't appear weak because they don't know how to build a case or are just weak and a bunch of cunts. I think Isreal alone got another ten billion last year. Man i wish i could cut that budget. Id have a surplus in ten minutes.

[Thor4140]

Here is an example of how Republicans are retarded. They never complain about all the money being wasted on subsidizing incompetent farmers because 99% of the farmers vote for them in the red states but when they try to help people who don't make enough money to get some help with subsidizing housing they bitch and moan like their house is on fire because these people don't vote for them.

When i started my business i had every tom, dick, and Harry out there with his hands out. These Farmers get this Welfare and it is a okay. I had to suck it up and hope i didn't go broke paying off all these thieves to get started. Farmers get these checks and laugh.

[pavyracer]

When i started my business i had every tom, dick, and Harry out there with his hands out. These Farmers get this Welfare and it is a okay. I had to suck it up and hope i didn't go broke paying off all these thieves to get started. Farmers get these checks and laugh.

Isn't this amazing? Farmers can get all the free money they want regardless if their business is viable but a guy who wants to start his own business can't get any help from the government and has to try to get a loan from a private bank at loan shark rates.

[brooks85]

Pavy, the defense budget is the biggest joke of them all. We spend more than all the other countries combined but when someone wants to cut it the republicans use the weak card and idiots fall for it. they use the weak card cause a lot of their buddies make a lot of money off of those useless defense contracts. Then we have the Democrats falling for it so they don't appear weak because they don't know how to build a case or are just weak and a bunch of cunts. I think Isreal alone got another ten billion last year. Man i wish i could cut that budget. Id have a surplus in ten minutes.

you need to stop spreading that lie. Ever heard of a country called China?

[brooks85]

Isn't this amazing? Farmers can get all the free money they want regardless if their business is viable but a guy who wants to start his own business can't get any help from the government and has to try to get a loan from a private bank at loan shark rates.

the only thing i find amazing is your ignorance.

and you can thank obama for that, he killed small business.

I should not say killed because after this jackass who has no clue about running a business, let alone a country, is out of office rightful attention will be paid to the backbone of this country.

[brooks85]

He crashed 5 jets while he was a pilot with the Air Force. 4 in training and 1 in combat without ever being hit by a single enemy bullet. That's incompetent.

ya incompetent when it comes to flying planes. Dont be a ******* idiot man and act like the intelligence of a person is judged by their ability to fly a fighter jet you jackass.

People who use/used that argument against McCain are worse than eurotrash. And the worse part is, arguments like that actually persuaded people to not vote McCain. How pathetic is that shit, it is shameful be from the same country as these people.

[pavyracer]

How did Obama kill the small business? Republicans killed small business. Because all the landscape and construction businesses can't get cheap labor from illegal immigrants and their overhead is so much higher and their productivity has significantly decreased. Sure what a great idea. Lets go after the illegals who are the fuel who drives small business and drive them away in a down economy where we have to be competitive and can't raise the prices. Now all small business are failing because they have increased overhead and low productivity.

[brooks85]

How did Obama kill the small business? Republicans killed small business. Because all the landscape and construction businesses can't get cheap labor from illegal immigrants and their overhead is so much higher and their productivity has significantly decreased. Sure what a great idea. Lets go after the illegals who are the fuel who drives small businessand drive them away in a down economy where we have to be competitive and can't raise the prices. Now all small business are failing because they have increased overhead and low productivity.

i stopped reading right there. Well, at least I should have, then I read the next doozie.

You are crazy if you believe that. But, I have yet to hear you announce that Obama was a mistake, which any intelligent person can figure out.

[pavyracer]

ya incompetent when it comes to flying planes. Dont be a ******* idiot man and act like the intelligence of a person is judged by their ability to fly a fighter jet you jackass.

People who use/used that argument against McCain are worse than eurotrash. And the worse part is, arguments like that actually persuaded people to not vote McCain. How pathetic is that shit, it is shameful be from the same country as these people.

I don't know about you but if I was the CEO of big company and wanted to hire someone for the most important job in the world I would be looking at his record whether is crashing 5 jets, cars or boats. Many americans go through their lifetimes without ever crashing a car or a bicycle and this guy managed to crash 5 fighting jets and thank God he was captured by the Vietnamese freedom fighters and was held in jail for 5 years else he was gonna cost the American taxpayers 5 more crashed jets if he was let crashing them like go carts.

[brooks85]

I don't know about you but if I was the CEO of big company and wanted to hire someone for the most important job in the world I would be looking at his record whether is crashing 5 jets, cars or boats. Many americans go through their lifetimes without ever crashing a car or a bicycle and this guy managed to crash 5 fighting jets and thank God he was captured by the Vietnamese freedom fighters and was held in jail for 5 years else he was gonna cost the American taxpayers 5 more crashed jets if he was let crashing them like go carts.

so you would instead vote for a guy that literally has 0% experience as opposed to McCain who has a wealth of expierence. Ya that was a smart decision, vote for a guy who has never even managed a small business, ya he will know what america needs. CHANGE!!!


the bold part

that is exactly my point, many americans go through their life without EVER flying a plane. You are comparing a guy who crashed a plane, something only 1% of the airforce even qualifies to fly, to the 60million cars that hit the road a day. That is an idiotic comparison. I guess you might not realize this but driving a car and boat is a hell of a lot easier than flying a plane.

[empty cookie jar]

all i know, obama was supposed to be a bringer of change and peace and harmony and was even gonna be looked upon to change race relations in the u.s.

kind of funny, any time a racial issue comes up he thoroughly fucks it up....can't even do the simple things.....goddamn commander in chief doesn't even know the correct way to pronounce corpsman.....what a joke

[Thor4140]

you need to stop spreading that lie. Ever heard of a country called China?

Nah it is not a lie and i looked at a few of ur post and u are about as racist as it gets. No need discussing anything further with a shitbag like u. U are one of those pigeons the neo-cons pluck and laugh behind ur back. Obama is killing the country when the shitbag u supported put us in this huge ditch to begin with. Nobody from either party could get us out of this mess in this short of time. I bet u were one of those douchebags pounding ur chest when Bush was at ground zero not knowing it was the beginning of his con game to go into Iraq and make a ton of his buddy's that much richer while saps like u didn't know any better. Yeehaw. Drape on that flag brother and get that gun ready u stupid ass clown.

[brooks85]

1.Nah it is not a lie and i looked at a few of ur post and u are about as racist as it gets. No need discussing anything further with a shitbag like u. U are one of those pigeons the 2.neo-cons pluck and laugh behind ur back. Obama is killing the country when the 3.shitbag u supported put us in this huge ditch to begin with. 4.Nobody from either party could get us out of this mess in this short of time. I bet u were one of those douchebags pounding ur chest when Bush was at ground zero not knowing it was the beginning of his con game to go into Iraq and make a ton of his buddy's that much richer while saps like u didn't know any better. Yeehaw. Drape on that flag brother and get that gun ready u stupid ass clown.

a lot to work with so I had too break it down

1. It is a lie, do some research you clown.
2. People who use that word are no different than al sharpton calling someone racist. Unintelligent.
3. I did not support Bill Clinton or Obama.
4. True, it can not be done in a "short time," but it could have been accomplished until Obama got elected.

[The fiddler]

you need to stop spreading that lie. Ever heard of a country called China?

No...you are the one that is error. The US spends 5 times more money in defending the country than China does. And per capita, the US spends about 20 times more than China. Use your google button before you spew.

[curious]

all i know, obama was supposed to be a bringer of change and peace and harmony and was even gonna be looked upon to change race relations in the u.s.

kind of funny, any time a racial issue comes up he thoroughly fucks it up....can't even do the simple things.....goddamn commander in chief doesn't even know the correct way to pronounce corpsman.....what a joke

what bothers me most about Obama is that he sold Hope and Change as getting the lobbyists and influence peddlers out of the decision making process. I imagined that campaign contributions, lobbying, and all forms of influence peddling were going to be outlawed.

If Obama had actually done this, so that policies could be made based on what is best for America rather than what is best for the influence peddlers, well maybe some rational, common sense policies could have been pursued instead of the disasters that Obama has stuck us with instead.

[brooks85]

hey jackass(fiddler), you should learn to read

here is what the clown said
"We spend more than all the other countries combined"

do that math dummy and you will see he is wrong and you look like a fool for backing it.

and then you can factor in that it is well known china does not release their actual numbers. They spend far more than they elude, look it up.

[The fiddler]

hey jackass(fiddler), you should learn to read

here is what the clown said
"We spend more than all the other countries combined"

do that math dummy and you will see he is wrong and you look like a fool for backing it.

and then you can factor in that it is well known china does not release their actual numbers. They spend far more than they elude, look it up.

]
You suck at this don't you? It is true...the US spends as much as the rest of the world does combined. I further exclamated the point by accurately pointing out that the US is spending 5 times as much as China RIGHT NOW.

Whereby China is now consideration investing their 2 trillion of surplus capital to upgrade their military, the present numbers prove you not only wrong...But WAY WRONG.

Now run along.

[Grandmaster B]

Here is an example of how Republicans are retarded. They never complain about all the money being wasted on subsidizing incompetent farmers because 99% of the farmers vote for them in the red states but when they try to help people who don't make enough money to get some help with subsidizing housing they bitch and moan like their house is on fire because these people don't vote for them.

[nosniboR11]

boooooooooom goes all liberals

[The fiddler]

Here's one links Brooks...from 2007..showing the US military spending 650 billion vs the rest of the world at 500 billion...and China at 65 billion....a whopping 10% lower than the US. Back in 2007, the US spent 30 more than China per capita...do you know what per capita means, Brooks?

I doubt it.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm