Betfair $3.1 million slow-pay and other pro player issues (Video)

[Dark Horse]

Not just sand you got your head stuck into, is it?

Let's put it this way. If Betfair ever went under, you would deserve to lose your money. Agreed?

[jjaycuny]

this video makes me feel uncomfortable, I would try to withdraw my $27...hope they won't give me any hard time

they will.....in increments of $1 a month.

[Hareeba!]

Not just sand you got your head stuck into, is it?

Let's put it this way. If Betfair ever went under, you would deserve to lose your money. Agreed?

Nobody playing by the book ever "deserves" to lose their money.

And even if Betfair went under, players wouldn't lose their money unless there was fraud involved because their funds are always maintained separate to the company's - a little thing which those used only to playing at the CR books frequently appear to have difficulty understanding.

[lukahh]

Nobody playing by the book ever "deserves" to lose their money.

And even if Betfair went under, players wouldn't lose their money unless there was fraud involved because their funds are always maintained separate to the company's - a little thing which those used only to playing at the CR books frequently appear to have difficulty understanding.

as it sadly often happens, even segregated account funds find their way out of that account.
nevertheless, i agree it's no doubt money is safer and way better regulated than in CR

[vitalyo]

If pinnacle/betfair/etc were to put in a rule that the of 1% winners would have their balances confiscated, your logic would be that´s ok because it doesnt affect you or other ordinary players.

Very well said durito Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme . Speaking of logic , only 1% gets stiffed, so many assume that this will never happen to them "The sheep pretend the wolf will never come" and who cares if one little sheep is lost? Betfair is been robbing punters almost at will but some of our members choose to live in the reality of denial of a truth .

GL

[Hareeba!]

Very well said durito Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme . Speaking of logic , only 1% gets stiffed, so many assume that this will never happen to them "The sheep pretend the wolf will never come" and who cares if one little sheep is lost? Betfair is been robbing punters almost at will but some of our members choose to live in the reality of denial of a truth .

GL

"Betfair is been robbing punters almost at will"

And I suppose you have links to authenticated examples of this to back up your claim?

[SportsMushroom]

"Betfair is been robbing punters almost at will" And I suppose you have links to authenticated examples of this to back up your claim?

shut up already

you kept asking for sbr to comment, they did and still you cannot back of you god damn shill

Justin7 has already stated that betfair is uncooperative on the matter, and not only that he stated he is looking into several other claims from players, its not a coincidence you know.

you asked for sbrs opinion and you got it, now go shower you stinky ape

[Hareeba!]

shut up already

you kept asking for sbr to comment, they did and still you cannot back of you god damn shill

Justin7 has already stated that betfair is uncooperative on the matter, and not only that he stated he is looking into several other claims from players, its not a coincidence you know.

you asked for sbrs opinion and you got it, now go shower you stinky ape

Please show where I've asked SBR to comment.

If you were capable of comprehending the legal situation under which Betfair has to work you just might understand why they appear to be "uncooperative".

Of all the world's betting agencies they probably are the most intent on ensuring they don't contravene the law as it would damage their efforts to gain licences in targeted jurisdictions, including the US.

[vitalyo]

"Betfair is been robbing punters almost at will"

And I suppose you have links to authenticated examples of this to back up your claim?

I am not gonna waist much time with you , this one should do it

http://www.youtube.com/user/SbrJustin#p/u/49/uKkNtpzJsH4

Try to use google to educate yourself and forget "Happy Hour" fiasco .
The title for this trend "Betfair $3.1 million slow-pay and other pro player issues" . Issues means more then ONE , i think you need to watch Justin7 video again . It's on page one , let me know if you need link

GL

[Hareeba!]

I am not gonna waist much time with you , this one should do it

http://www.youtube.com/user/SbrJustin#p/u/49/uKkNtpzJsH4

Try to use google to educate yourself and forget "Happy Hour" fiasco .
The title for this trend "Betfair $3.1 million slow-pay and other pro player issues" . Issues means more then ONE , i think you need to watch Justin7 video again . It's on page one , let me know if you need link

GL

So if that's the extent of your evidence ... zilch .. as expected.

I don't propose to "waist" any more time other than to once again explain that that report fails to put Betfair's legitimate defence.

What you conveniently ignore is that those players were the ones involved in scamming by taking an unintended advantage they saw in the promo contrary to Betfair's standard terms and conditions.

Let's wait until the court in the light of full evidence has determined it. At this stage it comes down to nothing more than a difference of opinion. Should the court determine in the players' favour you can rest assured that Betfair will pay up.

[yokspot]

We've been over this before. The players "stiffed" in the Happy Hour promo all broke Betfair's rules.

You really should be kicked off the forum for your trolling. The only rule that covered anything BF did was the we reserve the right to rob your money for any reason we see fit rule. This is not a rule recognized by anyone, industry, courts or anywhere else.

Whats more, BF has alreay been successfully sued in the UK, and they settled, over the Happy Hour robbery.

Sorry for bad formatting, typing this on a useles Russian computer.

[vitalyo]

So Hareeba you choose to live in denial, you switched your mind game to betfair "casino fiasco" and ignored the rest of the scams they pull , sizing accounts , taking funds off the players accounts . In your world it's all good that betfair removes the funds from winning players accounts , closing accounts ,sizing funds without any explanation .YOU ARE RIGHT BETFAIR DOESN'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN THEM SELFS , THEY JUST CAN GO AHEAD AND TAKE MY FUNDS IF THEY WANT TO OR FEEL LIKE , I AM JUST GONNA TRUST THEM ON THIS ONE . And If anything shills like you will back them up .
Another 1% get stiffed with 60% premium charge .Lets not forget betfair carrying no risk, the people making the money are, that imbalances things .For punters Betfair have for years had the mystique of the commission structure. No one coming onto Betfair know how much they would actually end up paying. Most people probably don’t know exactly what they pay . Betfair is not bearing the trading risk The fact is betfair is taking money from people who won it fairly ,and now they don't even bother with an explanation on why they took your funds .Great!!! We just love this model business . Or at least one of us do.
SBR puts up the fight for us and you chose to ignore all the facts they present .
OR DO YOU THINK JUSTIN7 IS LYING TO US ???
Betfair just removed €30.000 off the player account without notice and you are saying nothing wrong with that You are a lot of fun . TNX for an entertainment.
GL.

[bettilimbroke999]

Is the premium charge applied retroactively or do they like send you an email and from then on you pay a higher commission?

I mean lets say you win 20k over the course of a year and betfair decides to ram it up your ass for 20% commission since you got lucky and won, alright fair enough it's their site and they can do what they want BUT surely you dont owe any back commission, right?

I mean they cant just change the rules and say okay you owe 20% of 20k (4k) and deduct it from your account can they?

In the case of the 3.5 million dollar winner if they were to raise his commission from 20% to say 50% do you realize that would cost him an additional 900k dollars if applied retroactively.

People coming on here and saying he was pulling out his money to "avoid Betfair charges" make me believe that the premium charges might actually be applied retroactively, if that's the case then Betfair owners are just flat out criminals. Rules cannot be created in the future and applied retroactively, you cant drive 70 mph and get sent a fine a month later bc they changed the speed limit to 60.

[SportsMushroom]

betfair got greedy and started seeding their markets and finding ways to seize player money

greed will be their downfall

[Justin7]

Is the premium charge applied retroactively or do they like send you an email and from then on you pay a higher commission?

You get a warning email first.

[vitalyo]

bettilimbroke999 "Anty" paid $600k in commission you will find it in one his previous posts . He never tried to avoid them .
On BF commissions there way too many scenarios and no clear rules still no one knows for sure on how much they gonna charge you . You are at their mercy .
The new premium charge is 60% NOT 20% ON TOP of the 5% you already paid . .After years no one seems to be able to interpret their rules But don't worry they'll find you if you become eligible for premium charge!

I have to go .GL.

[Justin7]

If 60% doesn't chase away the pro players, maybe 80% will.

[yokspot]

Hareeba! - "I think most normal punters are in the same situation."

"I've never heard of any ordinary player being stiffed by them."

"I don't believe any regular player has any cause for concern in dealing with them."

The above are all quotes from your posts of today.
You've stated similar things all thru this thread.

But not just this thread. He posts the saw sign off line whenevr BF is up against it. Ask yourself why, when that comment adds nothing to the discussion, irrespective of its truth or lack thereof.

Hes a Betfair shill, no rational possiblity that he isnt.

[yokspot]

its not funny people withdraw from betfair alot also i think there is something hidden in this story betfair wouldnt screw a player suddenly for 3milions ,they keep good reputation

Did you bother to watch the video? Betfair sent, or claimed to have set, the money. Irakli Kacharava, Betfairs business partner and head ofthe PSP who should have reimbursed the player, sent 400K of the money, but has refused to send the rest.

It helps to get a handle on the facts before posting.

[Santo]

Hareeba's statements are arguably true for those in Australia and maybe slightly (but not much) less so for those in the UK. The recourse available matters. As you alluded to yourself, Betfair settled with the Happy Hour players who took UK legal action.

Apart from the arty case, the details of the other cases aren't public, but it is possible they could shake faith in Betfair outside of those regulated jurisdictions.

[bettilimbroke999]

You get a warning email first.

Okay, so you get a warning email and from them on you are charged the higher premium on all your winning bets but its not applied retroactively, strange rule but I suppose its fair since its their site and they are letting you know ahead of time. Kinda ****** up on betfair's part to try to charge 60% commission (hell thats more profits than the 40% the customer would make by winning the bet) but hey if someone will pay it good for them.

Several bookies charge double juice on baseball instead of the standard -105 and if their customers will pay it that's their right I guess, if the bookies could charge -150 on both sides and still keep customers somehow Im sure they would do it.

[Scooter]

If 60% doesn't chase away the pro players, maybe 80% will.

Can you explain the above? They've increased the premium charge again? New info?

[Hareeba!]

So Hareeba you choose to live in denial, you switched your mind game to betfair "casino fiasco" and ignored the rest of the scams they pull , sizing accounts , taking funds off the players accounts . In your world it's all good that betfair removes the funds from winning players accounts , closing accounts ,sizing funds without any explanation .YOU ARE RIGHT BETFAIR DOESN'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN THEM SELFS , THEY JUST CAN GO AHEAD AND TAKE MY FUNDS IF THEY WANT TO OR FEEL LIKE , I AM JUST GONNA TRUST THEM ON THIS ONE . And If anything shills like you will back them up .
Another 1% get stiffed with 60% premium charge .Lets not forget betfair carrying no risk, the people making the money are, that imbalances things .For punters Betfair have for years had the mystique of the commission structure. No one coming onto Betfair know how much they would actually end up paying. Most people probably don’t know exactly what they pay . Betfair is not bearing the trading risk The fact is betfair is taking money from people who won it fairly ,and now they don't even bother with an explanation on why they took your funds .Great!!! We just love this model business . Or at least one of us do.
SBR puts up the fight for us and you chose to ignore all the facts they present .
OR DO YOU THINK JUSTIN7 IS LYING TO US ???
Betfair just removed €30.000 off the player account without notice and you are saying nothing wrong with that You are a lot of fun . TNX for an entertainment.
GL.

No. It is YOU who is closing his mind to the fact that those who have suffered penalties are breaching the rules or the law.
Have you not read what I've posted about the laws surrounding Suspicious Transaction Reporting?

[Hareeba!]

Can you explain the above? They've increased the premium charge again? New info?

Show me just one post where I've done anything but be critical of their PC policy.

However, just to demonstrate that the likelihood of becoming subject to it is less than a lot of posts have suggested, consider the following numbers which I've just drawn from a method I have been playing lately: 131 bets which have produced a profit on turnover in excess of 11% which I think most sports punters would find very acceptable?
At the basic 5% commission rate you would have paid in excess of 32% of commission on your net profit on those bets. Quite a fair way off being under 20% which is when the PC comes into effect.
Unfortunately (?) my overall history of betting at Betfair (though quite acceptable to me) isn't anywhere near as good as in that example and my overall commissions are running in excess of 40% of my net profits. Needless to say I'm not living in fear of the PC.

[Hareeba!]

Did you bother to watch the video? Betfair sent, or claimed to have set, the money. Irakli Kacharava, Betfairs business partner and head ofthe PSP who should have reimbursed the player, sent 400K of the money, but has refused to send the rest.

It helps to get a handle on the facts before posting.

Have you actually read what I've posting from the start.

Betfair sent the money in accord with Anty's instructions.

They send my money to Moneybookers in accord with my instructions.
If Moneybookers cheat me I can't very well expect Betfair to pay up again.

I don't know that anyone is clear on the legal relationship between Betfair and PSP if any.

It helps to get a handle on what I've actually been saying before posting.

[Hareeba!]

betfair got greedy and started seeding their markets and finding ways to seize player money

greed will be their downfall

still waiting for your response : Please show where I've asked SBR to comment.

[Hareeba!]

.....BF has alreay been successfully sued in the UK, and they settled, over the Happy Hour robbery.

Do you have a link to the report on this ?

[vitalyo]

What you conveniently ignore is that those players were the ones involved in scamming by taking an unintended advantage they saw in the promo contrary to Betfair's standard terms and conditions.

Let's wait until the court in the light of full evidence has determined it. At this stage it comes down to nothing more than a difference of opinion. Should the court determine in the players' favour you can rest assured that Betfair will pay up.

The terms and conditions were pretty clear to me .
Hareeba then explain to me why would betfair settled with the "Happy Hour" players who took UK legal action ???
In my world If someone pulls the scam on me and then takes me to court (i have all the evidence of been scammed) i am not gonna try to settle, it would be insane.
It is very nice of you to try to justify confiscations of players funds .
So It looks like In the real world removing money from exchange accounts without justification fell apart .


GL.

[vitalyo]

Do you have a link to the report on this ?

Dude you are hilarious. Why don't you try to use your brain and fingers .

GL.

[Hareeba!]

The terms and conditions were pretty clear to me .
Hareeba then explain to me why would betfair settled with the "Happy Hour" players who took UK legal action ???
In my world If someone pulls the scam on me and then takes me to court (i have all the evidence of been scammed) i am not gonna try to settle, it would be insane.
It is very nice of you to try to justify confiscations of players funds .
So It looks like In the real world removing money from exchange accounts without justification fell apart .


GL.

As I said, Betfair has standard terms and conditions and in this case it was their opinion, supported by their lawyers, that they invalidated the actions of those taking advantage of the promo. Maybe, in the final analysis, they figured their case may not be as strong as they believed. I don't know. I've not seen any report on the case. Let me know if you can find a link to a report on it.

[Justin7]

Do you have a link to the report on this ?

I can confirm that a player that sued Betfair collected his happy hour winnings, but I cannot share any details. The settlement agreement between Betfair and the player prohibited the player from publicly sharing any terms of the settlement. I think every player that sued Betfair (or will sue Betfair) in the UK would win. I saw Betfair's pleadings, and they were a joke. As in the emails they sent to players, they rely soley on "suspicious wagering patterns". If a player is betting a fixed percentage of their bankroll (as a majority of them did on this promotion), how is that "suspicious"? Smart, yes. Suspicious, only if you are a mathematically challenged casino manager.

As I said, Betfair has standard terms and conditions and in this case it was their opinion, supported by their lawyers, that they invalidated the actions of those taking advantage of the promo. Maybe, in the final analysis, they figured their case may not be as strong as they believed. I don't know. I've not seen any report on the case. Let me know if you can find a link to a report on it.

Did you watch my video? Betfair's defense borders on bad faith. If their attorneys presented this defense in the US, they might get sanctioned or disbarred. Maybe that is why you don't see any trials on this issue? Because Betfair's defense to the Happy Hour thefts is so full of shit, their attorneys would get laughed out of court for presenting it in any industrialized nation with a working court system?

Hareeba,

I appreciate your contributions to these Betfair discussions. It is important to present both sides. But your continuous defense of Betfair in these disputes can only be maintained by ignoring all facts favorable to the players. You are a long-standing respected poster in this forum. If you are going to continue to defend Betfair, that is fine... But please don't ignore all the facts already presented against Betfair. If you continue to do so, you'll find your opinions becoming less relevant in all disputes. We need credible sportsbook/exchange advocates. Don't destroy your credibility by selectively ignoring available information.

[Hareeba!]

I can confirm that a player that sued Betfair collected his happy hour winnings, but I cannot share any details. The settlement agreement between Betfair and the player prohibited the player from publicly sharing any terms of the settlement. I think every player that sued Betfair (or will sue Betfair) in the UK would win. I saw Betfair's pleadings, and they were a joke. As in the emails they sent to players, they rely soley on "suspicious wagering patterns". If a player is betting a fixed percentage of their bankroll (as a majority of them did on this promotion), how is that "suspicious"? Smart, yes. Suspicious, only if you are a mathematically challenged casino manager.



Did you watch my video? Betfair's defense borders on bad faith. If their attorneys presented this defense in the US, they might get sanctioned or disbarred. Maybe that is why you don't see any trials on this issue? Because Betfair's defense to the Happy Hour thefts is so full of shit, their attorneys would get laughed out of court for presenting it in any industrialized nation with a working court system?

Hareeba,

I appreciate your contributions to these Betfair discussions. It is important to present both sides. But your continuous defense of Betfair in these disputes can only be maintained by ignoring all facts favorable to the players. You are a long-standing respected poster in this forum. If you are going to continue to defend Betfair, that is fine... But please don't ignore all the facts already presented against Betfair. If you continue to do so, you'll find your opinions becoming less relevant in all disputes. We need credible sportsbook/exchange advocates. Don't destroy your credibility by selectively ignoring available information.

It's a pity that we didn't get to hear the details of the case but my understanding was that Betfair was relying on the fact that the players were taking advantage of what really amounted to a fault in their promo (i.e. "bad faith") and that they believed their standard terms and conditions precluded that sort of behaviour. It seems that those terms and conditions may not have been firm enough to protect them against the smarties in this case. However I maintain that it is only fair and reasonable that books/casinos do attempt to frame rules to protect themselves against such errors and to take appropriate action. After all, I think you would support a book which cancelled the bets of a player taking advantage of a manifestly bad line?

Most of what I have been posting in this thread and several see as "defending" Betfair has in fact been questions attempting to get to the real facts which are necessary to come to a fair conclusion in Anty's case. I haven't exonerated Betfair at all. But I don't accept that there is enough clarity surrounding the case for any of us to condemn them either.

A lot of the rest has been defending myself against ignorant and childish personal attacks.

And I do not accept as fact all the charges posted against Betfair who are not in a position to defend themselves against many of them due to laws concerning privacy and security. Like every betting agency, Betfair attracts its share of dishonest customers who when tripped up will make a fuss and try to get assistance from the likes of you, omitting key details which don't suit their argument.

The bottom line for me and I expect the overwhelming majority of the millions of their customers is that there is no safer place to bet on this planet providing you don't breach their rules or the law and there really is no need to be alarmed about the handful or so of complaints (from what proportion of their customer base?) which have been discussed in this thread.

[yokspot]

Hareeba's statements are arguably true for those in Australia and maybe slightly (but not much) less so for those in the UK. The recourse available matters. As you alluded to yourself, Betfair settled with the Happy Hour players who took UK legal action.

I think you posted earlier that Betfair Oz is safer than BF Russia because of the relvant bodies (limited functionality on tihs useles comuter, cant check back easily). But this is not relevant. ANY book or casino, however shit, is a stone cold cert in the UK, becaue the UK legal system for at least small to medium claims is easy. But this is because of the legal system, its nothing to do with the book. I would play any Costa Rican or Cuarcao shithole if it has a UK presence, because max 120 quid buys me a hearing for up to 5000, and I probably get expenses if I win.

Is Betfair going to get the SBR downgrade it must surely get at this point? I do not consider relative pseudo safety for nickel and dime mugs justificaton for a top rating, considering the millons that Befair has either stolen, or effectively stolen as in the current case. They need to be held to account.

[SportsMushroom]

still waiting for your response : Please show where I've asked SBR to comment.

omg you are a bigger moron than i thought, just scroll back a few pages, Im not gonna play your silly little game

no matter what you say the people that read this thread are gonna realize what a racket betfair is

[Dark Horse]

The bottom line for me and I expect the overwhelming majority of the millions of their customers is that there is no safer place to bet on this planet providing you don't breach their rules or the law and there really is no need to be alarmed about the handful or so of complaints (from what proportion of their customer base?) which have been discussed in this thread.

That much is clear. For you this is about you. But this thread is about a guy who is slow paid 3.5 million. So why on earth did you take over the thread?

There is no need to be alarmed? lol Most of the money is held by a small percentage. So if they start skimming off the top to pay the 'poor', that should probably concern anybody playing at Betfair. My take? They change rules on the fly, because they're in over their heads.