Betfair $3.1 million slow-pay and other pro player issues (Video)

[Santo]

Hard to believe Hareeba or anyone else could possibly defend their actions, it seems as though Hareeba must work for BF

The defend = work for argument is tired and redundant. People can have differing opinions legitimately.

[Justin7]

We've been over this before. The players "stiffed" in the Happy Hour promo all broke Betfair's rules. Whether those rules were strong enough as I understand it is still up to the courts to determine.

The only rule they broke was using their brain. Betfair's defense that players broke their rules is ridiculous, unless you accept that +EV bonus playing is a "suspicious wagering activity".

I'm a long term winning player there and haven't been stung by any premium charges at all.

If you haven't paid any premium charge, you are a small player. Betfair is systematically kicking out every big winning player. Perhaps kicking out is too strong -- you can stay if you agree to a 60% premium charge.

As for those who don't get any satisfaction when questioning why their accounts have been closed, have you considered the suspicious transactions reporting legislation which makes it illegal for the book to tell them anything at all?

I call bullshit. If a regulated book mugs a player account, it will have to prove a reason whether in court or to a gaming commission. A player is allowed to see the evidence presented in either. So why would Betfair refuse to explain a mugging early in the dispute, if they are forced to later? not because of any legislation as you suggest.

It just makes no sense for Betfair to terminate accounts of those who play by the rules and by the law as they generate commission income.

Under a true commission based exchange, you are correct. Betfair no longer appears to be running this model. I speculate that they are seeding their own markets and betting into them. I've had four players write me about Betfair's new business model. If an entity is betting into these markets (be it Betfair, or someone like Tony Bloom in partnership with them), you want to get rid of winning competitors that suck money out of the system. What better way to do that than with an absurd premium charge?

Anyway this is all way off the real subject of this thread.

No, all of this affects big pro-players.

[Santo]

If you haven't paid any premium charge, you are a small player. Betfair is systematically kicking out every big winning player. Perhaps kicking out is too strong -- you can stay if you agree to a 60% premium charge.

This would only apply to traders. If you are a straight wagerer, still in profit, it is possible to keep your profit:turnover ratio low enough to avoid the premium charge.

I call bullshit. If a regulated book mugs a player account, it will have to prove a reason whether in court or to a gaming commission. A player is allowed to see the evidence presented in either. So why would Betfair refuse to explain a mugging early in the dispute, if they are forced to later? not because of any legislation as you suggest.

There is legislation about this. Hareeba has quoted it previously. You know the games lawyers play with discovery; there is a big difference from the Fraud Office's perspective in when the player gets information and the chance that gives them to cover their tracks.

[Hareeba!]

I call bullshit. If a regulated book mugs a player account, it will have to prove a reason whether in court or to a gaming commission. A player is allowed to see the evidence presented in either. So why would Betfair refuse to explain a mugging early in the dispute, if they are forced to later? not because of any legislation as you suggest.

1.2 The Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (PoCA)
as amended by the Serious Organised
Crime and Police Act 2005.
PoCA:
• Applies to Money Service Businesses.
• Establishes a series of criminal offences in
connection with money laundering, failing to
report knowledge or suspicions or reasonable
grounds for knowledge or suspicions, tipping
off a person to the fact that a report has been
made, and prejudicing an investigation.

[Hareeba!]

If you haven't paid any premium charge, you are a small player. Betfair is systematically kicking out every big winning player. Perhaps kicking out is too strong -- you can stay if you agree to a 60% premium charge.

Do you really understand when the PC comes into play?

I've read any number of misleading statements in this forum about it but I didn't expect you to be joining them.

I'm not a large player by my definition but what is yours for calling me a "small player"?

[Justin7]

I'm currently working on a Betfair dispute where a player put up a "trap" offer which was accepted. The player's lifetime win was maybe 1k. Betfair demanded that the trapped player explain his actions. When the trapped player didn't respond, they stole the trapping player's balance.

Hareeba, in what jurisdiction is that law?

[Hareeba!]

Hareeba, in what jurisdiction is that law?

UK for that one specifically but I think you'll find very similar in many developed countries.

[SportsMushroom]

you are so full of shit

if betfair was suspecting the account of money laundering they wouldnt have sent the money to the processor to begin the payment process

the fact of the matter is that betfair screwed up and you are a moron for defending them on a forum that was created to assist players that have been taken advantage by such books

[Justin7]

Do you really understand when the PC comes into play?

I've read any number of misleading statements in this forum about it but I didn't expect you to be joining them.

I'm not a large player by my definition but what is yours for calling me a "small player"?

Yes. Basically, if you are a winning player and don't pay "enough" in commissions, they want you to pay more.

From Betfair, here are the requirements for a premium charge assessment:

Premium Charge Summary

You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy the following criteria:
Your account is in profit;
Your total charges generated are less than 20%† of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:
Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.

All the players I know paying these premium charges are punters, not traders.

Hareeba, in your lifetime, how much have you won from Betfair? And how much have you paid in commissions?

[SportsMushroom]

justin do you really think this guy has ever won anything from a book? you can tell he is not very bright, he has no real argument in defending betfair but he cannot see that, just like every idiot he cannot accept that he is wrong, even if everyone else has pointed out to him that he is

[Hareeba!]

you are so full of shit

if betfair was suspecting the account of money laundering they wouldnt have sent the money to the processor to begin the payment process

the fact of the matter is that betfair screwed up and you are a moron for defending them on a forum that was created to assist players that have been taken advantage by such books

You obviously just join in to make personal attacks because it is patently obvious from that statement that you haven't been reading and following the discussion which led to it.

Also if you really had been reading my comments in this thread from the start you might have realised that I haven't come to a conclusion on this matter because essential facts required to be known before condemning or exonerating them haven't been forthcoming.

[Hareeba!]

Yes. Basically, if you are a winning player and don't pay "enough" in commissions, they want you to pay more.

From Betfair, here are the requirements for a premium charge assessment:

Premium Charge Summary

You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy the following criteria:
Your account is in profit;
Your total charges generated are less than 20%† of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:
Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.

All the players I know paying these premium charges are punters, not traders.

Hareeba, in your lifetime, how much have you won from Betfair? And how much have you paid in commissions?

I'm not sure of the lifetime numbers Justin but over the last 3 years I've withdrawn a net $100k but I'm nowhere near incurring the PC as I pay well in excess of 20% commission on gross winnings and can't see that changing the way I use Betfair and I think most normal punters are in the same situation.

I've never defended the PC and think it is definitely a bad mistake in Betfair's part to have introduced it.

[Scooter]

Presumably the reason is the shady characters involved and a fear of repercussions, probably something hard to appreciate from here.

Exactly what I was referring to earlier ("He's already given an excellent reason - long ago in this thread - as to why he - or you or anyone else - would be reluctant to bring this to court.").

[SportsMushroom]

Exactly what I was referring to earlier ("He's already given an excellent reason - long ago in this thread - as to why he - or you or anyone else - would be reluctant to bring this to court.").

the guy already said he has contacted a lawyer, you dont know what the lawyer told him


justin7 already has indicated that betfair is unwilling to cooperate

[Scooter]

Hareeba! - "I think most normal punters are in the same situation."

"I've never heard of any ordinary player being stiffed by them."

"I don't believe any regular player has any cause for concern in dealing with them."

The above are all quotes from your posts of today.
You've stated similar things all thru this thread.

Justin7 has just given numerous examples of Betfair stiffing and/or seizing accounts, in various circumstances, often without explanation.
Yet you just wave this all away and then proceed to say that all is well.

[Hareeba!]

Hareeba! - "I think most normal punters are in the same situation."

"I've never heard of any ordinary player being stiffed by them."

"I don't believe any regular player has any cause for concern in dealing with them."

The above are all quotes from your posts of today.
You've stated similar things all thru this thread.

Justin7 has just given numerous examples of Betfair stiffing and/or seizing accounts, in various circumstances, often without explanation.
Yet you just wave this all away and then proceed to say that all is well.

Someone else who either doesn't read what I've been saying or isn't too flash on comprehending the written word.

I've provided at least possible valid reasons for all those instances.

[Hareeba!]

I'm currently working on a Betfair dispute where a player put up a "trap" offer which was accepted. The player's lifetime win was maybe 1k. Betfair demanded that the trapped player explain his actions. When the trapped player didn't respond, they stole the trapping player's balance.

could well have been a classic money laundering job or an attempt to circumvent the PC

either way, I'm sure that you'd probably find in BF's rules that a player agrees to respond to such enquries

what was his reason for not responding?

something to hide was there?

that aside I think Betfair is to be commended for taking action against players who deliberately post trap offers ... they are effectively cheating honest players

[SportsMushroom]

I'm not sure of the lifetime numbers Justin but over the last 3 years I've withdrawn a net $100k

I guess thats the average betfair employee remuneration package, 33K per year

[nenad]

its not funny people withdraw from betfair alot also i think there is something hidden in this story betfair wouldnt screw a player suddenly for 3milions ,they keep good reputation

[SportsMushroom]

its not funny people withdraw from betfair alot also i think there is something hidden in this story betfair wouldnt screw a player suddenly for 3milions ,they keep good reputation

search around the forum, betfair has screwed people over before and for pennies, they wouldnt think twice about screwing someone for 3 million

ffs only a few posts ago in this very thread justin7 said he is looking into several player complaints regarding betfair

[Scooter]

...that aside I think Betfair is to be commended for taking action against players who deliberately post trap offers ... they are effectively cheating honest players

Can someone explain what a "trap play" is?

[shari91]

Can someone explain what a "trap play" is?

It's when someone puts up an offer deliberately way off the market price hoping a bettor is careless/new/a malfunctioning bot and bets it by mistake.

[Santo]

The 1.01 bots are proficient, but I suspect this may be a more 'sophisticated trap. The common is that in a low liquidity market, the back offer may be (fair odds) 1.2. A guy puts in a back bet at 13, which appears on the lay side. So you have a spread of 1.2 / 13 which has often been misread by a punter as 1.2 / 1.3, so as laying 13 when intending to lay 1.3.

[vitalyo]

It's when someone puts up an offer deliberately way off the market price hoping a bettor is careless/new/a malfunctioning bot and bets it by mistake.

Good job shari91 .
In live betting you see this offers on daily bases , where lets say the score is already known but you can offer the market that you can't lose . So for a newbie he might except the odds/offer (too juicy ) . It happens a lot with tennis cricket and soccer
Where lets say Pakistan is already scored 221 runs but someone offers you UNDER 200 @ 500 to one odds . Or tannins set betting , the score is 1:1 on sets but you still get offers to win to NIL .
If betfair was there to protect the player they would remove this markets , it can only benefit one side .They have been doing this for years , god knows how many players got burned ( thousands for sure ) Matchbook has the rule for this things . Couple of years ago one of the guys laid by mistake Man City to lose @ 1000 to one with 5 min in the game left to go, Man City were up 3:0 he wanted to lay the other team, within 2 -3 seconds he lost 50K . Obvious error ( for them to lose would be a goal scored at the rate 1 min15 sec) .
And at the same time they offer "traps" . All they care about the profit .


Example is bellow

[Santo]

I would offer one further caveat to this thread, based on some ongoing research I'm doing for other purposes. As a UK or AU citizen (even more so AU) I am very happy to play at Betfair; I indeed do so under an Australian account (where I currently live/work). If my only recourse was through the Maltese LGA, rather than effectively state government, I would be more worried in doing so.

A universal rating for Betfair is thus difficult, given your options vary based on your jurisdiction.

[vitalyo]

Example 2
Highlighted scores are impossible unless you go back in time

[Santo]

I've taken those kind of offers in the past, deliberately, to free up funds from a large trading position. The utility of having the funds outweighed the 2GBP cost of recovering them.

[vitalyo]

I've taken those kind of offers in the past, deliberately, to free up funds from a large trading position. The utility of having the funds outweighed the 2GBP cost of recovering them.

I know what you are saying (lol now you gonna confuse some serious # of SBR members) .You can do what ever you like as long as you know what you are doing.But this is not why betfair left this markets open , right ?Can we agree on this one ? In the way it's a freeroll for money laundering that coast you 1 cent on the dollar +5% commission ,why would they offer that ? I mean why wouldn't they try to stop that .

GL.

[Jontheman]

Please delete

[kkkkk]

i remember maybe 5-10 games this season with low liquidity markets, where there were backed 1.12 odds on both outcomes in 2 way bets amounts of maybe 12 000 eur. I tried to make win there as well but never succeed, when i made any offers noone backed my bets. So what i think is that someone made hidden transfers between accounts by making profit for one of the accounts. And as i said that happened maybe at least 5 times. As nobody came out to cry here or there, i guess betfair didnt take any action. So why betfair will not act in those cases with probable profit of 10-50 000 eur, and on other hand they act in the case Justin7 mentioned ???

[Dark Horse]

It's when someone puts up an offer deliberately way off the market price hoping a bettor is careless/new/a malfunctioning bot and bets it by mistake.

That's just part of exchange betting. And you can't really define it, because a live game can cover any spread, so players should be able to enter positions for different spread ranges.

The behavior by Betfair is very far removed from that of a neutral exchange. The fact that they're kicking out (by heavily taxing) big players, that normal exchanges would absolutely love for the liquidity they bring, tells you all you need to know. There may be plenty of money around to keep this baby floating for a while, but water is pouring into this boat fast.

I miss Tradesports.

[durito]

My personal ranking of Betfair is A++. I've never heard of any ordinary player being stiffed by them. I don't have the slightest concern about having a very significant part of my bankroll with them. And I don't believe any regular player has any cause for concern in dealing with them.

If pinnacle/betfair/etc were to put in a rule that the of 1% winners would have their balances confiscated, your logic would be that´s ok because it doesnt affect you or other ordinary players.

[Hareeba!]

If pinnacle/betfair/etc were to put in a rule that the of 1% winners would have their balances confiscated, your logic would be that´s ok because it doesnt affect you or other ordinary players.

Is that the extent of your ability to add something useful to the discussion?

If so you may just as well revert to your usual practice of just posting personal insults.

[Dark Horse]

How is durito's comment not useful Hareeba?

They seed their own markets, they lose, so they charge 60% or whatever amount pops in their head. lol

Judge, juror, and executioner.

Stay away because they have zero integrity. It doesn't matter if that affects only 1%. Those are the first to feel it. Like some self-appointed government they're taxing the rich (a lot), because otherwise their scheme would fall apart. The keyword being scheme.

[Hareeba!]

How is durito's comment not useful Hareeba?

They seed their own markets, they lose, so they charge 60% or whatever amount pops in their head. lol

Judge, juror, and executioner.

Stay away because they have zero integrity. It doesn't matter if that affects only 1%. Those are the first to feel it.

They seed their own markets?
You know this for fact? Who cares? What does it really matter?
I've already stated repeatedly that the PC is abhorrent. What more do you want me to say?
I have yet to read of any substantiated case of a player abiding by Betfair's rules and relevant laws being unfairly treated.
Play by the rules, within the law, don't try to be a smartarse and you'll not have anything to fear.