Pinnacle for stateside players

[Max009]

This part of your post puzzles me.

I read that post and thought the same thing. Your post made me laugh.

[Max009]

What the f*&# are you smoking? How exactly are you changing prices on people if your not already monitoring it and instituting delays? Don't give that BS about additional operating costs and time delays. There's no way you can be changing lines on people if you're not already doing those things.

And again, how does it help steam chasers if you ask them whether to confirm a bet or not at a new price that you claim is fair, rather than simply imposing it on them? If you have already moved the line, how is that unfair?

It seems like your intent is to try to punish people, rather than have a policy that's actually fair. Absolutely pathetic excuse for a sportsbook.

Look, I understand your paranoia that we are trying to stick it to you. I explained it before.....it is just like a market order in the stock market...a very common practice in fast moving markets.

We do not have any clients on delays and we will not put any clients on delays in the future. We will not limit or ban winning players. In fact with our system you can play anonymously so we couldn´t limit or ban you if we wanted to.

[Optional]

I joined up today to check it out.

[scott235]

Id rather parlaymakers be a post up shop rather than it be a GP puppet. I would hate having my money in GP. One thing not mentioned in this ENTIRE thread was GP's high fees when withdrawing via ** or wv. Then add the fact that your balance at GP may be less then what you left it at in the evening because gold is cheaper today than it was yesterday. Add that and the fact you pay 2% on winning means that yes parlaymakers might have pinny lines, but you almost cancel all this out with all the fees and shit you must put up with. I still think its a viable option and I may even consider playing there. But right now Id like to see a lot of things fixed with PM. Suck my dick bitch cause I look like Jesus Christ.

Again Max, the fees are a little prohibitive. Fees are rising all the time, and players are looking for books to offer 1 FWDPM. You need to kickback a little of the fee. You can cap it at a certain amount and give it as a bonus or a free play.

GP is been good so far, but they are not cheap, but people will pay a little more for no BS payouts and privacy with identity security. Right now though, it is a little excessive.

You guys are close, players just want to be treated as well when they win as when they lose.

Although I don't agree with you on not getting the price on a bet asked for, I have never not gotten one that I have not requested, but I don't bet steam so for most players it will never be an issue.

[bookie]

Again Max, the fees are a little prohibitive.

Scott...What amounts have you withdrawn, and how much have they cost? Looking at the prices on the GP website they seem pretty standard...are there hidden fees?

Also, does it cost the player money to deposit into GP?

[Hareeba!]

Look, I understand your paranoia that we are trying to stick it to you. I explained it before.....it is just like a market order in the stock market...a very common practice in fast moving markets.

Look, it's not paranoia

You've had at least 3 posters tell you your stock market analogy is absurd

You've had several more posters tell you that failure to warn of a price change is simply not acceptable but you've failed to provide a single sensible reason for being the only book on the planet which does that.

No serious punter I've ever come across would play with that condition in place

[fido007]

Why don,t you answer the question of ho to make offers on exchange.the statement to send an e mail is bullshit.i have sent several with no returns.operators are never there on live chat on stated hours.would it make a difference if i actually placed a bet.but how would you know.what if something serious came up.i can,t get a get a hold of anyone.i want to srtart playing in september but i have concerns

[katstale]

took me a while to catch on to all of this. I can play at Pinny and Match and was going to try out PM from what I read abt them in other threads, but in all candor I could not play at a place who sold me something different than I bought. I put alot of time and effort into my shopping and this is where the profit is always found. You like a game or some aspect of it and then you shop for the best price. when I submit for that price I want that. I could never allow a book to make that decision for me. Hopefully when their growth stalls they will implement the "change" window and then let us make a further decision as to whether we like "change". I had high hopes for this place and this is a simple change for them to make. hopefully sooner than later.

[Hareeba!]

took me a while to catch on to all of this. I can play at Pinny and Match and was going to try out PM from what I read abt them in other threads, but in all candor I could not play at a place who sold me something different than I bought. I put alot of time and effort into my shopping and this is where the profit is always found. You like a game or some aspect of it and then you shop for the best price. when I submit for that price I want that. I could never allow a book to make that decision for me. Hopefully when their growth stalls they will implement the "change" window and then let us make a further decision as to whether we like "change". I had high hopes for this place and this is a simple change for them to make. hopefully sooner than later.

If you can play at Pinnacle ad MB I can't think why you would want to be bothered with PM even if they do fix this nonsense. You get stung 2% for every winner and it sounds like there may be issues and costs associated with GP on top of that.

[bookie]

Why don,t you answer the question of ho to make offers on exchange.

The exchange is a disaster. Nobody understands it, including Max. The idea of being able to make dynamic offers is interesting and innovative. You're supposed to be able to make offers between the -105's, and then your offer will automatically be re-priced as the lines change.

So Let's say that that Minnesota-NO opens at -6, -105 and you make an exchange offer at Minnesota -100. Then let's say all in one move the Pinnacle price goes to Minnesota -6, -130/+120 (it's a hypothetical example), your offer will automatically be re-priced to -125. The idea is to take away the hazard that layers always have on exchanges of having all their stale numbers picked off.

The problems are: 1) Max pulled the names of the fields out of his head so that it doesn't look like any exchange any bettor has ever seen. 2) Suspicious bettors aren't going to trust that the PM platform is moving their offers in tandem with the market, though they can make "fixed" offers. 3) Max hasn't bothered to develop documentation to explain the idea or the nitty-gritty details to interested parties. 4) It hasn't been well tested, and yet sits out there as if it's good to go so that anyone who asks can be given permission to make offers, but when an authorized person (someone who has requested permission to make offers) hits "Create offer(s)" he'll look at the screen that comes up and just scratch his head.

[LostBankroll]

GP charges you a fee when you deposit. Say you drop 100 in GP, not only did you pay 6-10$ to send via ** or WV, but when the money hits GP, they take out a % before any bet is ever made. I know this from experience when depositing to Matchbook. I deposited 100$ and I had around 90 ish in my account im like WTF!!!

[thespeculator]

GP charges you a fee when you deposit. Say you drop 100 in GP, not only did you pay 6-10$ to send via ** or WV, but when the money hits GP, they take out a % before any bet is ever made. I know this from experience when depositing to Matchbook. I deposited 100$ and I had around 90 ish in my account im like WTF!!!

this has happened to me, but they do state that if you deposit less than 300 dollars they charge 10 fee, but the fee for ** or ** is for 300 and under , i don't know what the expense is for them , but they do tell you that ahead of time, atleast they told me

[katstale]

If you can play at Pinnacle ad MB I can't think why you would want to be bothered with PM even if they do fix this nonsense. You get stung 2% for every winner and it sounds like there may be issues and costs associated with GP on top of that.

Well, I would use Moneybookers and it seems avoid the 2% charge. And what I wouldn't pay for a slow version of Pinny with no delay and high limits.......

While I am dreaming, I would also like my square lines back at Bodog to go with this. Now I can see my second beach house coming into view.

[Max009]

Why don,t you answer the question of ho to make offers on exchange.the statement to send an e mail is bullshit.i have sent several with no returns.operators are never there on live chat on stated hours.would it make a difference if i actually placed a bet.but how would you know.what if something serious came up.i can,t get a get a hold of anyone.i want to srtart playing in september but i have concerns

Fido,

I take responsibility for not getting back to you. I have been in the process of moving offices this week and it has been hectic both technically and time wise. This applies to anyone interested in using the Parlaymakers exchange:

You have to email GP using their secure mail and tell them you want your account activated to use with the PM exchange. Tell them you give permission for PM to verify your account balance and to place in escrow offers that are matched on the PM Exchange. GP will authorize your account for this and notify us at which time your account will be activated for the exchange side.

Why do we have to do this? As a regular user you are logged on to GP when you make your wagers so there is no issue. As an exchange user your balance has to be frequently checked to verify that you have funds to cover your offers and when your offers are matched we have to have permission to put the funds in escrow at GP because normally you will not be logged on when the offer gets matched.

Again, I apologize for the delay.

[gman2114]

things will change fast here soon. just play one book for now.

[Max009]

The exchange is a disaster. Nobody understands it, including Max. The idea of being able to make dynamic offers is interesting and innovative. You're supposed to be able to make offers between the -105's, and then your offer will automatically be re-priced as the lines change.

So Let's say that that Minnesota-NO opens at -6, -105 and you make an exchange offer at Minnesota -100. Then let's say all in one move the Pinnacle price goes to Minnesota -6, -130/+120 (it's a hypothetical example), your offer will automatically be re-priced to -125. The idea is to take away the hazard that layers always have on exchanges of having all their stale numbers picked off.

The problems are: 1) Max pulled the names of the fields out of his head so that it doesn't look like any exchange any bettor has ever seen. 2) Suspicious bettors aren't going to trust that the PM platform is moving their offers in tandem with the market, though they can make "fixed" offers. 3) Max hasn't bothered to develop documentation to explain the idea or the nitty-gritty details to interested parties. 4) It hasn't been well tested, and yet sits out there as if it's good to go so that anyone who asks can be given permission to make offers, but when an authorized person (someone who has requested permission to make offers) hits "Create offer(s)" he'll look at the screen that comes up and just scratch his head.

Bookie,

Thanks for the comments and feedback. The dynamic offer is exactly as you describe it. I think of it as set it and forget it because your offer will automatically adjust with the Parlaymakers line. Other nice features is that you can set a fixed offer and if the Parlaymakers line is better than your fixed offer then your offer will automatically be taken off the board and automatically reappear once your fixed offer is better then the PM line. Also, you can make as many offers on every event PM offers up to your available balance in GP. For example you have $500 in GP you can make a $500 offer on every event PM offers. The system will automatically reduce all your offers as they are matched.

We are always looking to improve our product so I am sure as we get more feedback and as the exchange grows that you will see things updated and improved. In software there is never a finished product.

[vyomguy]

Max...you didnt answer my question about teaser limits.

[thespeculator]

Max...you didnt answer my question about teaser limits.

if you read the gp website , you can get around that issue ,

[Max009]

Max...you didnt answer my question about teaser limits.

I will give you an answer by Friday. We are reviewing it.

[Max009]

Max...you didnt answer my question about teaser limits.

I apologize for the delay in getting back to you. We will be increasing the Teaser max wager to $1000 with max payouts of $7500 starting this coming week. We will continue to review going forward. The teaser increase should be available by about mid next week. We will also be increasing the parlay max wagers to $1000 as well but that implementation will take a little longer....maybe end of next week.

Also, we will be increasing the max wager dispute for arbitration with SBR from $500 to $2,500. So any dispute you have with Parlaymakers can be brought to SBR for binding arbitration up to $2,500 per incident.

Finally, we have written a blog on our site that I think more succintly summarizes our position on wager confirmations if anyone would care to read that I will direct you there rather than repeat everything here.

[Hareeba!]

Finally, we have written a blog on our site that I think more succintly summarizes our position on wager confirmations if anyone would care to read that I will direct you there rather than repeat everything here.

Poor attempt at justification.

No amount of explanation can justify your policy on that issue.

My long experience at Pinnacle suggests that lines move a lot more than you are suggesting. At least they warn the player and he's free to accept or reject the new price.

I will not accept the chance of being dealt a lower price than I bid at when I could have got a better price elsewhere.

[Max009]

Poor attempt at justification.

No amount of explanation can justify your policy on that issue.

My long experience at Pinnacle suggests that lines move a lot more than you are suggesting. At least they warn the player and he's free to accept or reject the new price.

I will not accept the chance of being dealt a lower price than I bid at when I could have got a better price elsewhere.

Since you are already playing at Pinnacle I am sure you are very happy there. Since the title of this thread is Pinnacle for stateside players a fairer comparison is to compare Parlaymakers to a stateside facing book.

I suggested this before but no one wanted to mention one to compare it to. I understand why that is, because we actually compare very favorably to any US facing book. If your in the US and you are not using Parlaymakers then you are more than likely not winning as much as you could be. If the name of the game is winning then Parlaymakers should be one of your main outs for US players. Parlaymakers, excellent limits, no delays, no banning, no cutting limits, excellent prices, and great variety.

[thespeculator]

love the new teaser limits max, great company you have, comparing a start up with the best book ever is silly, Parlaymakers is a great option , gonna load my gp

[noyb]

hi max, in your blog you post about the whole-price-changing-after-confirm-thing:

"Why, other reasonable posters ask, can’t you give us a chance to confirm the new price? It seems weird to agree to one price, and then get another no matter how rarely it happens. The answer is that in the time it would take to “confirm” a bet the Pinnacle line could change again. So a shot-taker could make a bet, refresh the Pinnacle line in another tab, and then “Confirm” the bet if and only if it was to his advantage. There’s an infinite regress problem here. A “Confirm” is always going to take a few seconds plus however many seconds a customer takes to click it—and in that time the Pinnacle line can change."

just wanted to point out an obvious solution. when the player bets, as you say, the price is checked in real-time by your system before accepting it. if the price hasn't changed, the bet is accepted, if not generate an error informing the player the bet wasn't accepted, inform him of the new price, and ask him to accept. if the player presses accept, don't automatically accept it then as you seem to suggest doing in your blog, but have the price checked by your system in real time AGAIN. if again the price has changed, simply generate the same error again, informing the player again, etc.
you're not open to any shot-takers (whose bets will be rejected time after time if the pinny price has moved). on the other hand, the player can be sure he'll never get a different line then the one he accepted. seems to me like a pretty clean fix.

[bookie]

I just wanted to point out an obvious solution. when the player bets, as you say, the price is checked in real-time by your system before accepting it. if the price hasn't changed, the bet is accepted, if not generate an error informing the player the bet wasn't accepted, inform him of the new price, and ask him to accept.

The thing of it is, this would negate ninety percent of the 2H tickets written since those prices do bubble around. I'm sure a lot of people would find that frustrating. Maybe you could have a setting in each players preferences that allowed potentially all his halftime or bell bets to be infinitely double-checked, but if they did that for everyone all the time they'd write a lot fewer tickets.

It seems like a reasonable idea, and I hope Max will consider it. But as someone who bets there every day I can tell you that it would just lock players out of hot markets.

[Max009]

love the new teaser limits max, great company you have, comparing a start up with the best book ever is silly, Parlaymakers is a great option , gonna load my gp

Thanks Speculator, good to hear, good luck with your picks.

[Hareeba!]

Since you are already playing at Pinnacle I am sure you are very happy there. Since the title of this thread is Pinnacle for stateside players a fairer comparison is to compare Parlaymakers to a stateside facing book.

I suggested this before but no one wanted to mention one to compare it to. I understand why that is, because we actually compare very favorably to any US facing book. If your in the US and you are not using Parlaymakers then you are more than likely not winning as much as you could be. If the name of the game is winning then Parlaymakers should be one of your main outs for US players. Parlaymakers, excellent limits, no delays, no banning, no cutting limits, excellent prices, and great variety.

I did actually compare it earlier to Matchbook for singles betting and after factoring in the 2% slug for GP I reckon US players would mostly do better there than at PM.

You are right, I don't need PM myself because I'm not a Yank. But even if I were I wouldn't play there as long as that system operates. I've yet to read any acceptable explanation for it. I don't believe it would slow things down as much as you are saying. I'd prefer to cop the slower response rather than the lower price.

[faststeady]

hareeba

so why clog up the guys thread with rubbish if you have access to pinnie anyway?

[Hareeba!]

hareeba

so why clog up the guys thread with rubbish if you have access to pinnie anyway?

sorry you think it's "rubbish" mate but I think it is only fair to those who are playing there to point out such an unusual (and unnecessary) trap which doesn't exist at any other site on this planet and even try to get it rectified for their benefit

[noyb]

The thing of it is, this would negate ninety percent of the 2H tickets written since those prices do bubble around. I'm sure a lot of people would find that frustrating. Maybe you could have a setting in each players preferences that allowed potentially all his halftime or bell bets to be infinitely double-checked, but if they did that for everyone all the time they'd write a lot fewer tickets.

It seems like a reasonable idea, and I hope Max will consider it. But as someone who bets there every day I can tell you that it would just lock players out of hot markets.

i have no idea about 2H-lines, but obv PM will bust pretty quickly if there is a way to get them to write tickets after the Pinny lines has already moved. Sure, give people the option to opt out, but in general i'd rather have several "Price has changed"-notifications (which, let's face it, in any normal market will almost never be an issue. 99% of times the price won't have moved the first time, let alone a second time) instead of a bet against odds I didn't agree with. There are more books out there dealing lines based on other books/exchanges lines and afaik they all work like this.

[Optional]

sorry you think it's "rubbish" mate but I think it is only fair to those who are playing there to point out such an unusual (and unnecessary) trap which doesn't exist at any other site on this planet and even try to get it rectified for their benefit

Nah, you're really just being a loud mouth idiot who wants to yell about his opinion over and again. You seem to ignore ALL the people who use the book and say this is zero problem for them in real use... and either just don't want to understand Max's explanation of why they choose to do it, or are a bit too thick to see anyone elses point of view maybe.

Some people like not being limited or penalized for winning.

Some people like instant payouts.

Some people understand that this only hurts lame steam players like yourself, and overall, benefits everyone else that plays the book.

If you don't, that's your choice to play elsewhere. Now are you done screaming about what you do want yet baby?

[Santo]

The main difference is that Hareeba is coming from a pro betting perspective, and most of the posters who say it has no impact on them in real use are coming from a recreational perspective.

[bookie]

...let's face it, in any normal market will almost never be an issue. 99% of times the price won't have moved the first time, let alone a second time,,,

It depends on how you define "normal market" If you're betting a Saturday football game early in the week, or an event in the morning then I agree those lines are calm. Most bets, though, go in in the last hour before an event starts. All you have to do is set Pinnacle to Dynamic Lines to see that those markets move in the last hour a lot more than 99%.

I agree with you that the player should have the infinite price check option. I also think, though, that it's not just a trivial feature to add. And once it's there the forums will be full of people proclaiming that PM is a worthless out because they can never get a bet accepted.

[Hareeba!]

Nah, you're really just being a loud mouth idiot who wants to yell about his opinion over and again. You seem to ignore ALL the people who use the book and say this is zero problem for them in real use... and either just don't want to understand Max's explanation of why they choose to do it, or are a bit too thick to see anyone elses point of view maybe.

Some people like not being limited or penalized for winning.

Some people like instant payouts.

Some people understand that this only hurts lame steam players like yourself, and overall, benefits everyone else that plays the book.

If you don't, that's your choice to play elsewhere. Now are you done screaming about what you do want yet baby?

Read back over the thread mate and you will find many more voices saying exactly what I am saying than what you are saying

Instant payouts and being limited have nothing to do with the issue I've been talking about

And "steam" players is also a red herring. I am NOT a "steam" player. I simply seek out the best price on offer and try to take it. I've asked Max a couple of times whether my method of play is "steam chasing" in his view. He's failed to answer.

The introduction of a price change notification will not harm anyone. The "explanations" put forward for not having have been most unconvincing.

As for the view that it is a rare occurrence ... I've just placed 5 bets at Pinnacle on MLB and during the course of doing that one of them did move against me .... that's 20% (albeit a very small sample)

[minet123]

Isn't obvious what is going on
Max doesn't spell it out but come very close in his blog
If you can't see how parlaymakers works
than you probable should not play there any way