Pinnacle for stateside players

[relaaxx]

[quote=Hareeba!;6094047]No, my complaint is simply that you can substitute without warning a different price to the offer you put up and which a player accepts.

No other bookie I've ever come across does that and all the punters of my acquaintance would regard that as totally unacceptable.)quote

why would anyone place a bet anyplace- where you don't even know what the bet is. $1?? to win $100. and that is absolutly totally unexceptable.

[gafl]

Only one Pinny. No book has been able to copy them and be successful at it.

[Max009]

No, my complaint is simply that you can substitute without warning a different price to the offer you put up and which a player accepts.

No other bookie I've ever come across does that and all the punters of my acquaintance would regard that as totally unacceptable.

Further, to spruik that you are offering US punters a Pinnacle equivalent when they have to also accept a 2% fee to collect their winnings is somewhat misleading.

btw Pinnacle always warns when a price has changed after you've selected it.

It is not without warning, we tell everyone exactly how it works. There is nothing misleading about our line offerings, to receive funds from any sportsbook often entails fees that doesn't make their line offerings misleading. It also depends on what ewallet you are using regarding what fees or restrictions you have on payouts.

We are not Pinnacle, they are obviously the gold standard in sportsbooks and we operate differently than they do.

I appreciate your position. You always want the best possible deal for yourself.

[Hareeba!]

It is not without warning, we tell everyone exactly how it works..

Warning that you may charge a player more than he has offered to pay for a bet is just not good enough.

Not only have I not seen that with any other bookies, I can't think of a trader in any field who can get away with doing that.

The advice of a price change must be made prior to the bet being submitted and accepted or else a cancellation needs to be offered.

I can't believe that any serious punter would accept your conditions.

[austin]

there is a 2% fee for GP, is there a fee for moneybookers then?

[jgilmartin]

The advice of a price change must be made prior to the bet being submitted and accepted or else a cancellation needs to be offered.

I can't believe that any serious punter would accept your conditions.

This. Absolutely horrendous policy.

[bookie]

I've played about twenty 2H's at PM's and had lines go a couple of cents for and against me in about equal measure. If I ever put in a bet at -105 and got it at -110 I'd have to reconsider whether I could afford to play there, but in my experience it's not as bad as it sounds--although I grant you it sounds pretty bad.

[Climate]

[Originally Posted by Hareeba!
The advice of a price change must be made prior to the bet being submitted and accepted or else a cancellation needs to be offered.

I can't believe that any serious punter would accept your conditions.
quote=jgilmartin;6097015]This. Absolutely horrendous policy.

Bet with these guys?
You've got to be smoking the best crack to even consider placing a bet with these conditions.

[Dark Horse]

Warning that you may charge a player more than he has offered to pay for a bet is just not good enough.

Not only have I not seen that with any other bookies, I can't think of a trader in any field who can get away with doing that.

The advice of a price change must be made prior to the bet being submitted and accepted or else a cancellation needs to be offered.

I can't believe that any serious punter would accept your conditions.

Max erroneously compared it to the stock market.

The model is flawed. People should be able to enter their offer and either have it matched or not within a time period they should be able to specify. In that same selection box could be an option to allow PM to meet the offer at a price within a preset range. To simply allow PM to meet the offer at a price they deem fit opens the door to horrible malpractice.

[Igetp2s]

Agreed that the policy on changing lines is absolutely atrocious. Not even F rated scam books would try to get away with that.

[fido007]

how do you place an offer on their exchange.does anyone know?

[Max009]

I've played about twenty 2H's at PM's and had lines go a couple of cents for and against me in about equal measure. If I ever put in a bet at -105 and got it at -110 I'd have to reconsider whether I could afford to play there, but in my experience it's not as bad as it sounds--although I grant you it sounds pretty bad.

Thank you for posting that comment. As always there is a lot of hyperbole from people who have never even played at the site and then we have your comment which is reality. As you stated if your not chasing steam it can go for you or against you. For non-steam chasers it effectively has no impact on your wagering.

Not to mention that our low juice lines and variety are as good as you will find anywhere.

[Max009]

Max erroneously compared it to the stock market.

The model is flawed. People should be able to enter their offer and either have it matched or not within a time period they should be able to specify. In that same selection box could be an option to allow PM to meet the offer at a price within a preset range. To simply allow PM to meet the offer at a price they deem fit opens the door to horrible malpractice.

A market order in the stock market is a good comparison. Again, for most people this will basically have no impact on their wagering. Read the post by Bookie where he says that at times the line might move slightly against him and other times moves in his favor or most likely doesnt move at all in the 15-20 seconds it takes to place the order. If your a steam bettor, you are not going to like it and if that is the reason for you to not take advantage of -104 for NFL spreads then that is your choice. You can always go pay -110, you still won't be able to steam bet because they will cut you off or limit you but you can try at the full juice shops.

I understand your paranoia, but you just don't hear complaints about PM from actual users as you describe.

[Max009]

how do you place an offer on their exchange.does anyone know?

thanks for the question. You can contact PM at info@parlaymakers.com and they will give you the instructions on how to become a member of the exchange and make offers. It is very easy. As PM moves forward and our front end volume increases we are sure that our exchange offers will grow giving our clients even better pricing.

[gman2114]

I don't trust them.

[Max009]

Warning that you may charge a player more than he has offered to pay for a bet is just not good enough.

Not only have I not seen that with any other bookies, I can't think of a trader in any field who can get away with doing that.

The advice of a price change must be made prior to the bet being submitted and accepted or else a cancellation needs to be offered.

I can't believe that any serious punter would accept your conditions.

Hareeba, why don't you pick another US facing sportsbook and lets make a comparison between PM and the other book that way we can evaluate what the overall effect of differences actually is. Your suggestion that people should perhaps pay -110 versus -104 because of this one issue is probably a bit overblown. So let's pick one US facing book and make an overall comparison so we can get some perspective.

[wrongturn]

Max, why not let user choose what to do on the event of price change, cancel or confirm. Isn't it better to everybody?

[Max009]

Max, why not let user choose what to do on the event of price change, cancel or confirm. Isn't it better to everybody?

This issue is about 95% a steam betting issue. We made the conscious decision to get off the catch me if you can steam betting merry go round. We simply do not want to allow people to take shots at us and have to deal with putting people on delays or banning or any of that stuff. At Parlaymakers we have just eliminated that entire issue. If your in the US and want to bet lines that are as good or better than Pinnacle then you should be using Parlaymakers. If that deal is not good enough for you then we can't help you and you should probably tell everyone where the deal is better. That is why I suggested making a comparison between us and other US facing books. Factor everything in and then make an informed decision. If you do that, then I am confident Parlaymakers will come out on top.

[bztips]

For me, the biggest drawback would be the required use of GP. I have no interest in speculating on the price of gold, yet that is what you're doing by funding a GP account.

I'm not as concerned about the "market order" issue, although I understand it goes against what most bettors have ever experienced. Again speaking just for myself, it likely wouldn't deter me; in many (not all) situations, I think people are kidding themselves if they think a one or two cent move is nearly as important as the uncertainty inherent in their calculated edge.

But for me, GP is a deal breaker.

[docdekay]

Max keeps insisting that there is no delay.

This is simply not true.

I'm done belaboring the point which I have discussed ad nauseum with him on another forum. His market order analogy is a poor one because the stock market is far more liquid and less volatile. Prices rarely move 5% in a matter of seconds but they often move 5%+ in sports when spreads move a point in baskets, for ex. The volatility is simply much greater.

I think a more appropriate analogy on these prices changes is like going to a store, buying a 16oz soda which has a price tag of $1.25, paying, and then being told to give back 4oz of soda once you've walked out. If you tell me that the price is now $1.25 for 12oz BEFORE I pay, that is one thing, but to retroactively charge me for something after I've paid is deceptive at best.

Even if we assume the above practice is ok, they will put you on delay and then change the price if you've beat them to the move. That, IMO is criminal because they claim there's no delay.

Disclaimer: I havent checked the software in about a month so if something on my account has changed since then, great!

[Hareeba!]

if your not chasing steam it can go for you or against you. For non-steam chasers it effectively has no impact on your wagering.

I would imagine that most serious punters are like me.

I shop around for where I can find the best price.

So I see that PM has -105 whilst the next best is -108

So I place my bet at PM only to find that instead of -105, I've been given -110 without prior notice

Had I known in advance I'd have taken the other book's -108 wouldn't I?

Now you are saying it is 50/50 that I might have got say -103 rather than -110 ?

As the best price anywhere else was -108 I would expect that is extraordinary unlikely.

Any variance in price is almost always going to go against me.

Do you regard my seeking out the best price in the market as "steam chasing"?

[Hareeba!]

Hareeba, why don't you pick another US facing sportsbook and lets make a comparison between PM and the other book that way we can evaluate what the overall effect of differences actually is. Your suggestion that people should perhaps pay -110 versus -104 because of this one issue is probably a bit overblown. So let's pick one US facing book and make an overall comparison so we can get some perspective.

Max, I can't see the point in this.

If you are offering Pinnacle odds we all know that most of the time that is at least as good as anyone else bar Matchbook.

At Matchbook you pay say 2% max. if accepting offers (apples v apples comparison to allow for the fact you pay on losers as well as winners). At PM you also pay 2% if you win.

But at PM you run the risk of being cheated on the price.

That doesn't happen at Pinnacle or Matchbook.

So it really is a no-brainer.

Ok, so Matchbook may not offer your betting option or have insufficient liquidity, and if you are in the US you can't use Pinnacle.

Then PM may well be the best place to make your bet even after factoring in the commission and the risk of being cheated on the price.

[Igetp2s]

The fact that Max is so stubborn in his opinion that he can't even see how many people are against this policy is kind of scary. If you're not going to listen to the concerns of posters here, then what's the point of even coming here? All you need to do is change the line when, and then let the player decide whether to accept or not at the new price, just like every other sportsbook does. I fail to see how that would expose you to steam chasers.

If they want the new price, they'll take it. If not, they'll cancel it. How exactly does that negatively effect your book? This isn't rocket science. Come on man, stop the crap and admit a mistake just for once.

[Hareeba!]

The fact that Max is so stubborn in his opinion that he can't even see how many people are against this policy is kind of scary. If you're not going to listen to the concerns of posters here, then what's the point of even coming here? All you need to do is change the line when, and then let the player decide whether to accept or not at the new price, just like every other sportsbook does. I fail to see how that would expose you to steam chasers.

If they want the new price, they'll take it. If not, they'll cancel it. How exactly does that negatively effect your book? This isn't rocket science. Come on man, stop the crap and admit a mistake just for once.

Exactly!
The forum has given its verdict.

[vyomguy]

Max....how come the limits on soccer is still $250. Many punters play soccer.

[scott235]

the costs through ******* were payed back to me in form of a bonus , i am pretty sure almost the whole amount was covered , it was very small amount of bets, but i remember getting something in my ******* account saying bonus ,

The 2% deduction off the top is a little tough to get used to, and doing a balance reconciliation daily is a nightmare esp with gold price fluctuations, but you will get used to it. It's good to know that the 2% will be reimbursed in the form of a bonus on GP withdrawls, even if it's only once a month. Sounds reasonable.

Customer service is excellent. If GP survives, in theory you will always get paid with no bullshit.

Also, Parlaymakers respects player privacy and identity security which is very important to many players.

[Rapscallion]

The issue with with this is simple. Example:

look at a game where the line opened -3.5, lets say later in the day the number moves to say 4.5 at nearly every book. The chalk player sees the 3.5 and ends up getting 4.5 because he is"chasing steam". Next the dog player plays and my gut tells me he isn't going to get 4.5 because you are still showing 3.5. Is showing the right updated number off the bat too much to ask?

[scott235]

BTW, they also have an exchange feature which is rarely used.

[Dark Horse]

The issue with with this is simple. Example:

look at a game where the line opened -3.5, lets say later in the day the number moves to say 4.5 at nearly every book. The chalk player sees the 3.5 and ends up getting 4.5 because he is"chasing steam". Next the dog player plays and my gut tells me he isn't going to get 4.5 because you are still showing 3.5. Is showing the right updated number off the bat too much to ask?

Right. PM can get any middles they want. No questions asked. And assurances that they won't cash in on the advantage, instead of clearing up the process that is critized here, border on ludicrous.

[scott235]

The issue with with this is simple. Example:

look at a game where the line opened -3.5, lets say later in the day the number moves to say 4.5 at nearly every book. The chalk player sees the 3.5 and ends up getting 4.5 because he is"chasing steam". Next the dog player plays and my gut tells me he isn't going to get 4.5 because you are still showing 3.5. Is showing the right updated number off the bat too much to ask?

agreed. this needs to be addressed.

[trixtrix]

the analogy that the retroactive price-change will equally help and go against a player that is NOT steam chasing is POORLY construed:

even if you're not a steam player, for this example assume rest of the world has wash +6/ nyj -6, while pm has wash +5.5/ nyj -5.5. the ONLY players pm will attract are players looking to bet the favourite (nyj) -5.5, NOBODY will be looking to take the dog (wash) side at pm as they can get +6 EVERYWHERE else on the first look.

but guess what: except that the fav players are not going to get -5.5 they are going to get -6. the dog players would not think to place the wager at pm b/c they see +5.5 and know they can get +6 elsewhere. so you actually have an INBALANCE of action ALWAYS in you favour, which is what i suspect why this rule exist in the first place..

[Max009]

Max keeps insisting that there is no delay.

This is simply not true.

I'm done belaboring the point which I have discussed ad nauseum with him on another forum. His market order analogy is a poor one because the stock market is far more liquid and less volatile. Prices rarely move 5% in a matter of seconds but they often move 5%+ in sports when spreads move a point in baskets, for ex. The volatility is simply much greater.

I think a more appropriate analogy on these prices changes is like going to a store, buying a 16oz soda which has a price tag of $1.25, paying, and then being told to give back 4oz of soda once you've walked out. If you tell me that the price is now $1.25 for 12oz BEFORE I pay, that is one thing, but to retroactively charge me for something after I've paid is deceptive at best.

Even if we assume the above practice is ok, they will put you on delay and then change the price if you've beat them to the move. That, IMO is criminal because they claim there's no delay.

Disclaimer: I havent checked the software in about a month so if something on my account has changed since then, great!

You are not on a delay. You were previously, but since we have upgraded to our new system it is no longer necessary to put anyone on a delay. If you don't mind me saying so, you were inspirational for our current policy. We learn a lot from you Doc. Do you have anything good to say about Parlaymakers from your wagering experiences?

[Max009]

I would imagine that most serious punters are like me.

I shop around for where I can find the best price.

So I see that PM has -105 whilst the next best is -108

So I place my bet at PM only to find that instead of -105, I've been given -110 without prior notice

Had I known in advance I'd have taken the other book's -108 wouldn't I?

Now you are saying it is 50/50 that I might have got say -103 rather than -110 ?

As the best price anywhere else was -108 I would expect that is extraordinary unlikely.

Any variance in price is almost always going to go against me.

Do you regard my seeking out the best price in the market as "steam chasing"?

It is probably a little extreme to suggest that in the 15-20 seconds it takes to place your wager that the pinnacle price is going to jump from -103 to -110 every time. You saw Bookies post about his own experiences betting 2h at Parlaymakers and it was that now and then the price moved against him a few pennies and also sometimes in his favor a few pennies.

It is not logical to say the the variance in price is always going to go against you.

The final analysis is at Parlaymakers you are always going to get the most current price available as listed at Pinnacle. That in the end is not some end of the world scenario. I am glad we agree that the Parlaymakers price is going to be almost always the best price available.

[Max009]

Max, I can't see the point in this.

If you are offering Pinnacle odds we all know that most of the time that is at least as good as anyone else bar Matchbook.

At Matchbook you pay say 2% max. if accepting offers (apples v apples comparison to allow for the fact you pay on losers as well as winners). At PM you also pay 2% if you win.

But at PM you run the risk of being cheated on the price.

That doesn't happen at Pinnacle or Matchbook.

So it really is a no-brainer.

Ok, so Matchbook may not offer your betting option or have insufficient liquidity, and if you are in the US you can't use Pinnacle.

Then PM may well be the best place to make your bet even after factoring in the commission and the risk of being cheated on the price.

No one is being cheated on the price. This thread is a good example of our transparency in discussing our policies. It is different. When you play at Parlaymakers this is how it works. Perfectly reasonable to factor in how much that may or may not affect your wagering. For the vast majority of players it will have no impact on their overall bottom line. I like the discussion but to say we are cheating people is not fair to us or to the discussion.

[Hareeba!]

It is probably a little extreme to suggest that in the 15-20 seconds it takes to place your wager that the pinnacle price is going to jump from -103 to -110 every time.

I didn't say it would move that much every time. It was just an example.
But any move is likely to result in my getting a lower price than I could have got elsewhere

It is not logical to say the the variance in price is always going to go against you.

I said "almost always'"
And I put forward a very logical argument to support that
You've given no reason for your statement that it is "not logical"

I am glad we agree that the Parlaymakers price is going to be almost always the best price available.

I don't believe I said that either.
I would expect for US players only it may be quite frequently but I'd expect Matchbook to be better more often
For non-US players PM can never be the best price available after you factor in the 2% slug