Pinnacle for stateside players

[Optional]

Read back over the thread mate and you will find many more voices saying exactly what I am saying than what you are saying

Instant payouts and being limited have nothing to do with the issue I've been talking about

And "steam" players is also a red herring. I am NOT a "steam" player. I simply seek out the best price on offer and try to take it. I've asked Max a couple of times whether my method of play is "steam chasing" in his view. He's failed to answer.

The introduction of a price change notification will not harm anyone. The "explanations" put forward for not having have been most unconvincing.

As for the view that it is a rare occurrence ... I've just placed 5 bets at Pinnacle on MLB and during the course of doing that one of them did move against me .... that's 20% (albeit a very small sample)

I do get your issue, but think you are trying to make too much of it. It's not like it's hidden or feels like being cheated once you use the system. You are given exactly what is promised, Pinnacles latest line.

Like Bookie, I'd prefer we had the option if it didn't affect anything else, but also agree it's not clear cut that it would be 'better' with an extra confirmation screen.

The upsides outweigh that potential downside, for me personally anyway.

[bookie]

Isn't obvious what is going on
Max doesn't spell it out but come very close in his blog
If you can't see how parlaymakers works
than you probable should not play there any way

For anyone who's interested that blog link is here:

http://parlaymakers.wordpress.com/2010/09/05/why-we-dont-offer-a-confirm-on-final-price/

[Max009]

I did actually compare it earlier to Matchbook for singles betting and after factoring in the 2% slug for GP I reckon US players would mostly do better there than at PM.

You are right, I don't need PM myself because I'm not a Yank. But even if I were I wouldn't play there as long as that system operates. I've yet to read any acceptable explanation for it. I don't believe it would slow things down as much as you are saying. I'd prefer to cop the slower response rather than the lower price.

Maybe you haven't actually played at Matchbook but that is not even a full service site. They are great for late lines on spreads and moneylines in the NFL and MLB. If you bet soccer, tennis, nascar, rugby, any other sport, totals, first halves, first half totals, parlays, teasers, or like early lines and more liquidity then you are going to need something like Parlaymakers if you are trying to get the best price.

[Igetp2s]

hi max, in your blog you post about the whole-price-changing-after-confirm-thing:

"Why, other reasonable posters ask, can’t you give us a chance to confirm the new price? It seems weird to agree to one price, and then get another no matter how rarely it happens. The answer is that in the time it would take to “confirm” a bet the Pinnacle line could change again. So a shot-taker could make a bet, refresh the Pinnacle line in another tab, and then “Confirm” the bet if and only if it was to his advantage. There’s an infinite regress problem here. A “Confirm” is always going to take a few seconds plus however many seconds a customer takes to click it—and in that time the Pinnacle line can change."

just wanted to point out an obvious solution. when the player bets, as you say, the price is checked in real-time by your system before accepting it. if the price hasn't changed, the bet is accepted, if not generate an error informing the player the bet wasn't accepted, inform him of the new price, and ask him to accept. if the player presses accept, don't automatically accept it then as you seem to suggest doing in your blog, but have the price checked by your system in real time AGAIN. if again the price has changed, simply generate the same error again, informing the player again, etc.
you're not open to any shot-takers (whose bets will be rejected time after time if the pinny price has moved). on the other hand, the player can be sure he'll never get a different line then the one he accepted. seems to me like a pretty clean fix.

Forget it buddy, this guy isn't interested in obvious solutions. He's as locked into his position as can possibly be. No amount of logic or explanation will get him to budge. He's got it all figured out and we're all just a bunch of idiots for not understanding it.

[Hareeba!]

Maybe you haven't actually played at Matchbook but that is not even a full service site. They are great for late lines on spreads and moneylines in the NFL and MLB. If you bet soccer, tennis, nascar, rugby, any other sport, totals, first halves, first half totals, parlays, teasers, or like early lines and more liquidity then you are going to need something like Parlaymakers if you are trying to get the best price.

I play at Matchbook regularly and know those limitations full well

But they have nothing whatever to do with what I have been saying about your system

[Max009]

Forget it buddy, this guy isn't interested in obvious solutions. He's as locked into his position as can possibly be. No amount of logic or explanation will get him to budge. He's got it all figured out and we're all just a bunch of idiots for not understanding it.

No one has said anything of the sort. For people who do not play at the site to suggest that we are some how acting unethically or that this issue is some major issue for most players is just simply untrue. As I stated before if you are trying to catch us in line changes its not going to work. People who aren't doing that are going to be pleased with the the low juice/great prices, excellent variety, high limits, no delays, no limiting of players, no banning, the increased privacy and greater control over their bankroll.

If you want to compare us to somebody then compare us to somebody on the overall value that we bring to the table. If you do that, customers will be quite pleased with what they get when wagering at Parlaymakers.

If you don't think getting the same line as Pinnacle as a US player is a good deal then just say so and tell us who you are comparing us against.

You may not like some aspects of our policies, fine. The sky is falling rants from people who don't even use the site however just don't measure up to reality.

[Max009]

I play at Matchbook regularly and know those limitations full well

But they have nothing whatever to do with what I have been saying about your system

They have a lot to do with it because you are saying this one issue means that you would advise players to play at a full juice shop paying -110 this year for NFL instead of -104 with Parlaymakers because they are going to be burdened with always getting the same line as Pinnacle. Or playing at Matchbook with much greater limited options.

If a US player feels burdened at Parlaymakers because they always get the same line as Pinnacle then there is not much I or anyone else can do for them. The Pinnacle line is generally about as good as it gets.

I think there are a lot of US players out there that once they become aware of Parlaymakers and what we have to offer will love having the opportunity to bet at the guaranteed same lines or better as Pinnacle.

[Hareeba!]

They have a lot to do with it because you are saying this one issue means that you would advise players to play at a full juice shop paying -110 this year for NFL instead of -104 with Parlaymakers because they are going to be burdened with always getting the same line as Pinnacle. Or playing at Matchbook with much greater limited options.

No I've never said that. You haven't been reading my posts too well if that's what you think.

If a US player feels burdened at Parlaymakers because they always get the same line as Pinnacle then there is not much I or anyone else can do for them. The Pinnacle line is generally about as good as it gets.

I think there are a lot of US players out there that once they become aware of Parlaymakers and what we have to offer will love having the opportunity to bet at the guaranteed same lines or better as Pinnacle.

No doubt that's true but there would be a whole lot more who'd play at PM if you were to listen to reason and bring in a simple warning message (optional for those who don't care about optimal value for their bets) that the price or line had moved.

[lukahh]

hmm. i understand the reasoning behind giving customer (occasionally) different price than posted. i don't like that and won't accept it, but if i wasn't able to use pinnacle, i might use it... and that's your target customer.

it will be interesting how this model evolves. I'm not sure copying the lines of the best bookmaker is enough for success. Pinnacle can even out their P/L with many many wagers they accept (which also influence their line movement). if you only copy the lines, you might only get one side of the action, potentially exposing the bookmaker to big losses. secondly, there's reason to believe Pinnacle is hedging their exposure extensively over betfair, presumeably with minimum cost, which a line-copy shop can't do efficiently because of lack of volume and know how.

[faststeady]

i checked my stats and over a cross section of more than 10,000 bets at pinnie (using their feed) , the line moved before bet placed less than 4% of the time.

[jgilmartin]

I think there are a lot of US players out there that once they become aware of Parlaymakers and what we have to offer will love having the opportunity to bet at the guaranteed same lines or better as Pinnacle.

Does Parlaymakers have any plans to offer any deposit/withdraw methods for US players other than G***-pay?

[Dark Horse]

The idea of money going straight back from book to 'bank' is excellent. More books should adopt it. But the 2% fee on winnings is extremely steep. For transferring money?! For 1% I would consider it, but not 2%. GP needs some competition.

[thespeculator]

The idea of money going straight back from book to 'bank' is excellent. More books should adopt it. But the 2% fee on winnings is extremely steep. For transferring money?! For 1% I would consider it, but not 2%. GP needs some competition.

, i don't get people complaining about a book that pays instantly, if the fees could be lowered when they get more volume , of course that would be better

[Hareeba!]

, i don't get people complaining about a book that pays instantly, if the fees could be lowered when they get more volume , of course that would be better

I haven't seen anyone complaining about instant payouts

[Max009]

Does Parlaymakers have any plans to offer any deposit/withdraw methods for US players other than G***-pay?

Thanks for the question. They have just about everything you could want as an option for deposit or withdrawal, also it would be expensive and redundant for us to duplicate it. We can offer low juice because we concentrate on keeping operating costs very streamlined and using them helps us do that.

[Santo]

I'm not sure copying the lines of the best bookmaker is enough for success. Pinnacle can even out their P/L with many many wagers they accept (which also influence their line movement). if you only copy the lines, you might only get one side of the action, potentially exposing the bookmaker to big losses. secondly, there's reason to believe Pinnacle is hedging their exposure extensively over betfair, presumeably with minimum cost, which a line-copy shop can't do efficiently because of lack of volume and know how.

I suspect part of the reason for their checking mechanism is that they are laying off some/all of the action to Pinnacle at the current Pinnacle price...

[Max009]

I haven't seen anyone complaining about instant payouts

We agree that players having more control over their bankroll is a great idea.

Another thing I wanted to mention to you Hareeba is that for people concerned about your issue you can always use the Parlaymakers exchange to make your own offers. Here are the reasons that the Parlaymakers exchange is better than Matchbook:

1. Much greater variety of events to wager on. At Parlaymakers you can put an offer on any event that Parlaymakers currently lists which means, early lines, a lot more soccer, cycling, nascar, golf, tennis, wnba, props, live wagering, all the major sports and then some. Parlaymakers probably has 5 times as many wagering opportunities as Matchbook. For a trader more events means more +EV opportunities.

2. The Parlaymakers Exchange allows you to place multiple offers up to your total available balance. For example you have $500 then you can place a $500 offer on every event that Parlaymakers offers. Your offer amounts are automatically reduced as your offers are matched. If you try to do that on MB you would need $50,000. For a trader, more leverage equals more opportunity to get offers matched with less capital so you can take advantage of more +EV opportunities.

3. The Dynamic offer function on the Parlaymakers Exchange allows your offer to automatically adjust with the base Parlaymakers line. Say you want your offer 1 cent lower than the Parlaymakers line which is at -105 so your offer is currently at -104. If the Parlaymakers line moves to -107 your offer automatically adjusts to -106. You can also set your offer to move or not move with spread changes. You could set your offer on an early line and it would constantly adjust all the way to game time. Set it and forget it. You can also make firm offers that don't adjust.

4. For front end clients who only want to place wagers there is never a lack of liquidity. Parlaymakers will always take your action whether there are exchange offers or not. If there are exchange offers then you always get those first because they will always be better than the base Parlaymakers line. Any amount that is over the amount offered will be placed at the Parlaymakers(Pinnacle) line. That is why we say lines as good as Pinnacle or better guaranteed. Also, front end users have all the features of a normal book like parlays, teasers, and pleasers. At Parlaymakers we don't limit your wagering opportunities.

Every serious trader on Matchbook or anyone who wants to make offers should at least be an active exchange member on the Parlaymakers exchange as well so you can maximize your +EV opportunities.

[durito]

I suspect part of the reason for their checking mechanism is that they are laying off some/all of the action to Pinnacle at the current Pinnacle price...

How do they make money then? (I'm quite sure they don't make any now anyway, but how might they someday?)

GP charges the % fee. Parlaymakers is just stuck booking pinny lines with limited to no volume.

[durito]

4. For front end clients who only want to place wagers there is never a lack of liquidity. Parlaymakers will always take your action whether there are exchange offers or not. If there are exchange offers then you always get those first because they will always be better than the base Parlaymakers line. Any amount that is over the amount offered will be placed at the Parlaymakers(Pinnacle) line. That is why we say lines as good as Pinnacle or better guaranteed. Also, front end users have all the features of a normal book like parlays, teasers, and pleasers. At Parlaymakers we don't limit your wagering opportunities.

Are you backed by pinnacle? If not I hope you have lots of money.

[Max009]

Are you backed by pinnacle? If not I hope you have lots of money.

We are not backed or affiliated with Pinnacle. We are fine financially, thank you.

Actually in the Parlaymakers blog we explain what communication we have had with Pinnacle regarding use of their publicly available XML feed.

I do thank you for your concern.

[durito]

Do you have anyone there in your employment that understands what you are doing?

You have $800 overnight limits on Argentine soccer spreads with a 8 cent line. Are you really getting enough two way action to deal that (and the same on hundreds of markets) If I recall back when you listed all the bets you were taking you were getting upwards of 2k in action a day. How do you plan to keep the lights on?

[Max009]

Do you have anyone there in your employment that understands what you are doing?

You have $800 overnight limits on Argentine soccer spreads with a 8 cent line. Are you really getting enough two way action to deal that (and the same on hundreds of markets) If I recall back when you listed all the bets you were taking you were getting upwards of 2k in action a day. How do you plan to keep the lights on?

We are doing just fine thanks. I am glad you have observed how nice our limits are and the wide variety of options we have. I can only assume you will be playing with us very soon.

[katstale]

I offered to help them "keep the lights on" lolol just give me a confirmation/rejection screen and I am there!!

[BigDaddy]

i think i once saw they had booked a total of 40 bets in 5 days

the link seems to not be up anymore but you could see the # of bets they took and it was not much.

[Max009]

I offered to help them "keep the lights on" lolol just give me a confirmation/rejection screen and I am there!!

Excuses, excuses, if your scared just say your scared.

[bookie]

Excuses, excuses, if your scared just say your scared.

It's clear you're frustrated Max, but taking that tone is not plus EV for you.

[BigDaddy]

Excuses, excuses, if your scared just say your scared.

LOL!

did you really just post that?

i doubt he is scared of anything.

[Max009]

It's clear you're frustrated Max, but taking that tone is not plus EV for you.

It was meant as a joke actually. I am pretty laid back about these things. People generally go where the best value is and once people examine Parlaymakers they will understand what a great place to play it is.

[Max009]

LOL!

did you really just post that?

i doubt he is scared of anything.

Everyone is so serious.

I actually suspect he already plays with us so I doubt he is scared of us. There is no way for me to know because people can play anonymously with us but that would be my guess. He probably wants to scare everyone off so he can have us all to himself....lol.

Oh, by the way we are not scared either. In fact, I would say most of our players are semi-professional if not professional players. The pros know a good deal when they see it.

[durito]

Excuses, excuses, if your scared just say your scared.

Yes I'm scared of sending money to a bookie who a) has a business model that makes being profitable almost impossible and b) has an open policy of cheating players. (And I've played at some 100+ books A+ do D-).

[Max009]

Yes I'm scared of sending money to a bookie who a) has a business model that makes being profitable almost impossible and b) has an open policy of cheating players. (And I've played at some 100+ books A+ do D-).

Since we are just copying the same model as Pinnacle I disagree that it is a model that is impossible to be profitable.

Saying that we cheat players is completely false. I am surprised someone as well respected and knowledgeable as yourself is, would say something completely untrue.

If any player has a grievance with us they can always take the case to right here at SBR for binding arbitration. We are the only book in the world that offers that feature.

If you don't like our policy that is one thing, to say we are cheating players is completely false and I would expect more from someone like yourself.

[katstale]

I am pullin your chain gently Max, cause i would love to play there. BUT, as I repeated before, I am very careful when I select a "number" for a game and I only play the number I am looking for or I wait for it to come to pass or I pass. I don't know any professional who would be willing to "take what appears on the ticket" rather than what they asked for and expected. I probably get 10 turn downs a day at Pinny and I am not deterred. I just wait to see if it comes back to me.

[durito]

Since we are just copying the same model as Pinnacle I disagree that it is a model that is impossible to be profitable.

You are copying pinnacle lines not their business model. It took them years to get the volume to be able to offer such low juice.

Saying that we cheat players is completely false. I am surprised someone as well respected and knowledgeable as yourself is, would say something completely untrue.

If any player has a grievance with us they can always take the case to right here at SBR for binding arbitration. We are the only book in the world that offers that feature.

If you don't like our policy that is one thing, to say we are cheating players is completely false and I would expect more from someone like yourself.

You are cheating players by giving them a price on a bet that they didn't ask for. That is not acceptable.

[Hareeba!]

You are cheating players by giving them a price on a bet that they didn't ask for. That is not acceptable.

No, it's okay mate .... before you enter the shop there's a sign saying BEWARE ... you may be CHEATED ... so because you've been warned it isn't cheating

[vyomguy]

I will give you an answer by Friday. We are reviewing it.

What's the update regarding teaser limits?