Book smarts vs. Street smarts

[Panic]

Did you graduate college, Mr. Gold?

[Willie Bee]

Umm okay, take a look at the current war in Iraq. It's hard to imagine a liberal secular individual initiating such a war. Conservtism and religion are two of the worst ideas and are made even worse when compounded.

Ok, so let's clear this up first: You're the only person on this board who can claim, "Period, end of debate." If that's the case, then we really need not extend the life of any thread beyond your input.

This is a conceptual question. "Education" in an of itself does not exist in the same sense a table or lamp physically exist. Therefore, education has to be measured by some real world indicator. In short, you have to operationalize education in such a way that it can be observed.

The most common measure of education is "years of schooling." A researcher typically asks how many years an individual went to school and that response becomes their "education level" and is treated as such in data analysis. This of course doesn't say whether one learned anything or not, it simply tells you how many years they spent in school. But again, the resarch shows a positive relationship between education and income.

Perhaps the data should be listed as 'formal education level,' which in no way implies level of intelligence.

One of the smartest men I've ever known had approximately 18+ years of 'formal education.' He had a masters degree in mathematics, and was an educator -- teacher, coach, principle -- for nearly 40 years after acquiring his 'formal education.' He was also one of the most conservative individuals I've ever known, and the bulk of what I learned from him came from his uncanny common sense. While he did help me with my math homework when I was a kid, I learned a lot more from him just hanging out and observing him out in the field working cattle, shearing sheep or tracking game. Not too many men of his generation even finished basic public education, much less went on to college, especially since he wasn't 'white,' and it was damn rare 40 years ago to find a man with a masters branding cattle. Damn, but I miss my abuelito.

[durito]

Would you like me to bring up other examples, durito? Even you would know that there would be little effort involved to accomplish that. And we can guess what side of the fence you play on, no need to keep shoving it out there. You have no idea whether he attended Havard through his dads connections or on his own merit. You have just become accustomed to bashing Bush and do so at any opportunity. But this is not a political thread so lets stick to the topic at hand, shall we.

Bush's undergraduate grades are widely available.

If you think a random person can get into the Harvard MBA program (one of the most competitive programs in the world) with those grades (even from Yale) you are mistaken.

Naturally you can come up with millions of college graduates that are republicans. However, as education level increases you get a greater percentage of liberals. That's a fact. Just like the previous example where you get greater increases in income.

There's a reason the republicans have to resort to fear mongering and racism to get poor uneducated people to vote for them -- they wouldn't get enough votes otherwise.

And don't stereotype me into any category. I belong to no political party and have voted for all sorts of people from all sorts of parties.

[Panic]

durito, so show me here where Kerry(the educated liberal) was better than Bush.


President George W. Bush's critics made much of the 1999 release of his Yale undergraduate grades. President Bush's cumulative grade score was a 77 (based on his first three years and a similar average under a non-numerical rating system implemented his senior year). What we didn't know, until this week, was that while President Bush was being mocked about his grades, Senator John F. Kerry was hiding a slightly worse academic past.

Senator Kerry, who graduated from Yale two years before President Bush, received a cumulative 76 during his four years including four D's his freshman year and another his sophomore year. Bush received just one D during his four years at Yale. Add this to the fact that last year it came out that Bush actually scored higher than Kerry in their military aptitude/IQ tests.

[Panic]

durito, books smarts vs. street smarts-your thoughts?

[durito]

durito, so show me here where Kerry(the educated liberal) was better than Bush.


President George W. Bush's critics made much of the 1999 release of his Yale undergraduate grades. President Bush's cumulative grade score was a 77 (based on his first three years and a similar average under a non-numerical rating system implemented his senior year). What we didn't know, until this week, was that while President Bush was being mocked about his grades, Senator John F. Kerry was hiding a slightly worse academic past.

Senator Kerry, who graduated from Yale two years before President Bush, received a cumulative 76 during his four years including four D's his freshman year and another his sophomore year. Bush received just one D during his four years at Yale. Add this to the fact that last year it came out that Bush actually scored higher than Kerry in their military aptitude/IQ tests.

who said anything about john kerry? you are making up arguments that I'm not making.

better than bush at what? wind surfing? college?

what exactly do college grades prove? nothing.

bush was a terrible president his first four years, so i voted for kerry. i doubt he'd have been a great president, but i'm sure it would have been much better than the current administration.

durito, books smarts vs. street smarts-your thoughts?

what exactly is the question?

[Panic]

The point Buddy Bear was making had to do with education as it pertained to liberalism and conservatism. He made it sound as if the Democratic nominee would not have put us in the position we are in had they been elected because they are smarter. That would have been John Kerry. Kerry had worse grades than Bush. Thats the point. You came along and bashed Bush's college credintials, when the substitute would have been Kerry, who had worse.

Last post I make about politics in this thread.

[Panic]

who said anything about john kerry? you are making up arguments that I'm not making.

better than bush at what? wind surfing? college?

what exactly do college grades prove? nothing.

bush was a terrible president his first four years, so i voted for kerry. i doubt he'd have been a great president, but i'm sure it would have been much better than the current administration.




what exactly is the question?

Been trying to say this the whole thread.

[durito]

The point Buddy Bear was making had to do with education as it pertained to liberalism and conservatism. He made it sound as if the Democratic nominee would not have put us in the position we are in had they been elected because they are smarter. That would have been John Kerry. Kerry had worse grades than Bush. Thats the point. You came along and bashed Bush's college credintials, when the substitute would have been Kerry, who had worse.

Last post I make about politics in this thread.

You are grasping at straws.

Buddy said a democrat would not have invaded Iraq.

The invasion happened in Bush's first term. So your comparison would only work if you talk about Al Gore.

I said Bush only got into Harvard Business School because of his dad's connections. That's it. That's the only thing I said about Bush. I didn't say anything about his intelligence or anything else.

[BuddyBear]

I am going to respond to every single post since I left and show you how stupid most of you are.....

[durito]

I am going to respond to every single post since I left and show you stupid most of you are.....

Thanks buddy, i really have to get back to work.

[Panic]

Well this dumb country bumpkin conservative is gonna go have a cocktail. durito, I will post right now that you are 100% correct and won all arguments, okay? Can we get past this and get back to the topic of the thread? Thanks.

BuddyBear- Knock that sh!t outta the park, pal. I look forward to reading it.

See ya'll soon.

[BuddyBear]

School is not the only source to educate someone. School is definitely not do or die.

The richest people in this Country never went to college. They had a business and had smarts with money. Not everyone requires taking orders until they are 22 to achieve things their way. Some do need it, some dont.

Again, for ten trillionth time, the relationship between education and income is not a perfect positive linear relationship. There are always going to be those who have more education that make less than those with less education. In some instance, you'll find high school dropouts who are rich beyond their wildest dreams.

Nevertheless, the research literature in sociology has empiricaly demonstrated that education is positively associated with income. For every year of education you have, the higher your income. This is a robust finding. Even when you control for confounding factors, the effect is still statistically significant. Stop arguing things you have no idea about.

Either way you are very naive.

The only one being naive is the person whon continues to hold the wrong belief even when presented evidence to the contrary. I've read these articles, I've seen the research, I know what I am talking about....

[Willie Bee]

I am going to respond to every single post since I left and show you stupid most of you are.....

Oh please, start with me Please show me how stupid I am just because I disagree with you.

[BuddyBear]

Im your research pal, im your statisic of the average failure without a college degree.

No you aren't! You are a sample size of 1! There is nothing I can generalize from you onto a broader target population. This is not the way social science resarch works.

Social science works by beginning with a theory and then from the theory you generate hypothesis and from this you do what is called hypothesis testing.

In this instance, we have two hypotheses: a null and an alternative.

Our Null Hypthesis is: There is no relationship between education and income.

Our Alternative Hypothesis is: There is a relationship between education and income.

We collect data and do statistical analysis. Based on the statistical analysis we can either accept or reject the null hypothesis. Based on the hypothesis we select, that is the one that is a better representation of the truth.

Now, this has been done a million times and each time it shows education to be the best predictor of financial success even after controlling for other possible explanations.

One problem is, I live in one of the richest areas in NYC and I have no problems financially. I am very well educated in most areas. Either way im smart enough to say there are different paths for every. Shame on you for being the "God of success" and how it should be achieved.

My advice to you would be to take a statistics course so you can see how stupid you sound with your faulty logic.

[BuddyBear]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but didn't Bush graduate from Harvard, Buddy? How is this argument helping you? You said people who achieve a higher education tend to be Liberal, then you go on to bash Bush, but he graduated.

Is this what you are saying?

Educated=Democrat
Uneducated=Republican

Seems like you're trying to push your political views across now.

No I am not trying to push my political views, I am trying to push what the research liteature says. Knowledge is built by research, not by what gaming forum posters say.

As a whole, if you have a college degree you are just as likely to vote REP as you are DEM. There is no statistical difference between the two.

However, REP and DEM are what are considered categorical variables and liberal and conservative are continuous variables. When we use categorical variables we lose a lot of meaning in the data. DEM does not equal LIB just like REP does not equal CONSV.

The finding is that the more education you have, the more liberal you become. In other words, for every year of education you have you become more liberal and less conserative.


Bush's education level is extremely irrelevant. The guy is a self-proclaimed conservative and said he spoke with God before invading Iraq. You guys can decide for yourself who is more likely to invade a sovreign nation: a religious conservative or a secular liberal.

[BuddyBear]

Hes the type that always has to be right, his methods and opinions are flawless.

No one argue with BuddyBear and his wonderful researched statistics.

Argue all you want, but I am right on this issue any way you look at it. There is nothing that I have said here that is wrong or can be contradicted by the research literature on this topic.

[BuddyBear]

educated people run the world

More or less, at least in America that is the case.

Educated people end up with the power jobs

Yes that is most certainly true, but mainly in America as far as I know.

Educated people for the most part make better decisions than non educated people

I am not really sure, but I'd be willing to bet that educated people have more opportunities to make decisions.

Educated people do not have better family backrounds and foundations

I am not sure, but judging by statistics I saw about the South I doubt your claim is correct but I am not sure about the research on this.

[BuddyBear]

[

Perhaps the data should be listed as 'formal education level,' which in no way implies level of intelligence.

Perhaps but that is more an operational question. But the way it is done shows a positive relationship and any way you operationalize education is likely to show the same result.

Let's say you wanted to say education = number of books a person reads a year instead of years of school.

Well who do you thnk reads books? Educated people...so in any case, you are likely to get the same result with any agreed upon conception of edcuation.

One of the smartest men I've ever known had approximately 18+ years of 'formal education.' He had a masters degree in mathematics, and was an educator -- teacher, coach, principle -- for nearly 40 years after acquiring his 'formal education.' He was also one of the most conservative individuals I've ever known, and the bulk of what I learned from him came from his uncanny common sense. While he did help me with my math homework when I was a kid, I learned a lot more from him just hanging out and observing him out in the field working cattle, shearing sheep or tracking game. Not too many men of his generation even finished basic public education, much less went on to college, especially since he wasn't 'white,' and it was damn rare 40 years ago to find a man with a masters branding cattle. Damn, but I miss my abuelito.

This seems to me more or less incoherent emotional rambling. You can't judge anything with a sample size of 1 so this is an extremely irrelevant example. Sorry to say....

[Willie Bee]

Oz has spoken. No need to continue with this thread, might as well just close it. Thanks for setting us all straight, Buddy.

Oh, by the way, how smart would you say it was for someone with a solid education to let their health insurance run out on them in the USA this day and age?

[BuddyBear]

Thanks buddy, i really have to get back to work.

Yeah. This whole thread illustrates extreme faulty logic. Most guys haven't the faintest idea about statistics and instead rely on personal examples, experiences, or anecdotes to arrive at incorrect conclusions.

This is why most guys fail at the sportsbook as well. Just like they are resistent to believe education and income are related despite evidence to the contrary, they are just as likely to lay bad numbers and not think twice because last time they laid a bad number and won.

[BuddyBear]

Oz has spoken. No need to continue with this thread, might as well just close it. Thanks for setting us all straight, Buddy.

No problem. Hope you learned something new today....

Oh, by the way, how smart would you say it was for someone with a solid education to let their health insurance run out on them in the USA this day and age?

I'll be getting health insurance, don't worry. Thanks for your concern though

[Willie Bee]

Trust me, I'm not worried about whether or not you have health insurance. In fact, I don't even recall mentioning your name in that example. Just asked how smart you thought it was.

[BuddyBear]

Trust me, I'm not worried about whether or not you have health insurance. In fact, I don't even recall mentioning your name in that example. Just asked how smart you thought it was.

Probably not very, but 45,000,000 + are without it and they survive.

[Teela]

I believe that the original question was posed because some people feel that a college education makes a person “better,” not based on income. I don’t think anyone is denying that a college education is correlated to income, but that does not make a person better. There are many people that do not follow this rule, regardless of what the research says. This does not always follow the trend, but it does happen. Does that make them “smarter” in anyway? It depends on the definition of “smart.”

[Willie Bee]

Teela, quit letting facts get in the way of a good debate

[BuddyBear]

Teela, quit letting facts get in the way of a good debate

I'd quit embarrassing yourself. You've shown yourself to be quite ignorant about this topic and instead relied on some anecdote to prove a point when the research evidence is completely against you. I took it a bit easy on you just because you are a moderator.

[BuddyBear]

I believe that the original question was posed because some people feel that a college education makes a person “better,” not based on income. I don’t think anyone is denying that a college education is correlated to income, but that does not make a person better. There are many people that do not follow this rule, regardless of what the research says. This does not always follow the trend, but it does happen. Does that make them “smarter” in anyway? It depends on the definition of “smart.”

The original post was

I see so many posters bragging about their college education and looking down on others who didn't go. Call me crazy, but I'll take the guy who is wise to the ways of the world and can get out there and get things done in a dog eat dog world. I'm not saying education isn't important, but it definately is not the measuring stick for success.

The original post is more or less just rambling but he talks about success. We can measure success any number of ways, but when we talk education and success we are generally referring to income.

[Willie Bee]

I'm not embarrassed at all, Buddy, nor have you proven me to be ignorant with regards to this subject. I even agreed with you on one of your points, yet you allowed your less than objective personal opinions of me seep into your argument. But hey, if you feel better about yourself after this discussion, then I'm happy for you.

[jjgold]

Did you graduate college, Mr. Gold?

HS ..got thrown out but was a straight A student

[Teela]

Based on income alone, that would be true based on the statistics. There are many that buck that trend though. I question some of the statistics though – it would depend on the age of those in the sample as well how long they’ve been in the position that they’re in. As you would know, Buddy, research, especially in the social science field, is always evolving and there will always be another study that will debate the findings.

Willie, I’m afraid that I can’t take you seriously. Come on. Just look at your avatar! Everyone knows that Larry was the “better” stooge

[Shark79]

HS ..got thrown out but was a straight Ass student

[Willie Bee]

Willie, I’m afraid that I can’t take you seriously. Come on. Just look at your avatar! Everyone knows that Larry was the “better” stooge

Teela, there's your first mistake, confusing that photo as a mere avatar. That's really me.

I wonder how the social science statistics would correlate the 'success' of the Stooges to their 'education?' Do you think Moe read the most books?

[Thor4140]

First of all, all of us shitbags have both conservative and Liberal views and you can take all these labels and throw them right in the dumpster because these labels are meant to do nothing but divide suckers. Second in my opinion college is a money making scam. Not all college fields but most college fields. Making people pay for shit they won't use in a million years is nothing but a money making con job. You want to be a doctor or a lawyer (and a few other things)you go to College. In other Countries you want to learn finance you have finance courses and not a bunch of bullshit science classes just to pad the colleges wallet. On another note do i think it helps one to have that degree? Yes. Most places will pay a nitwit with a degree just because he has the degree.

[Teela]

Teela, there's your first mistake, confusing that photo as a mere avatar. That's really me.

I wonder how the social science statistics would correlate the 'success' of the Stooges to their 'education?' Do you think Moe read the most books?

Willie, I'm oddly turned on now.

I think Moe had to read the most books. That's what made him the fastest eye-poker and head slapper.