Taco, you've been blown away by logic. His record is much better than yours therefore you could not possibly have played thousands of hands of blackjack. Based on that, I must now state that the games are in fact rigged. When people ask me why I now feel this way, I will direct them to the anecdotal evidence IMG has graciously provided. Thank you for showing us the path IMG. If you hadn't had such a good couple of weeks in the books I might feel differently. I'm surprised the books still take your action. How can they stay open? You're so hot.
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The last time I was here, this was a discussion forum.Originally posted by imgv94
In a discussion forum, topics can be discussed.
I am discussing a topic.
Hope that's clear enough for you.
I bet your dad is bigger than my dad too.Originally posted by imgv94
So you take your experience of a few games of craps as gospel, yet you disregard my experience of hundreds of thousands of hands of blackjack. That seems a bit dumb.Originally posted by imgv94
isetcap has also bet significant amounts at casinos and has shown a long-term house advantage of 0.5%. I guess he's wrong as well.
Ever thought of becoming a comedian? My sides split after reading that.Originally posted by imgv94Originally posted by pags11Originally posted by BuddyBearOriginally posted by curiousComment -
I, too, have wagered millions of dollars at around 100 online casinos and at around 20 real-life casinos. I used to do the Bonus Hunting years ago when the Wagering Requirements were reasonable and played at many MicroGaming / ProCyber, Cryptologic, BossMedia, RTG, etc... Software sites. I have wagered Millions as well, and played Millions of hands of BlackJack. And if you have performed the same, isetcap, you could definitely verify that some software performs better than others. And yes, I am willing to concede that it may have been a bad stroke of luck, two times in a row, with Pinnacle and that the outcomes for very similar hands led to losses was all bad luck. But from my experience with around a hundred online casinos and and millions of BlackJack played, i can recognize very unlikely losses and odds favoring the house much more than the statistical odds...now of course, you can still argue that it was very bad luck and i agree. But this experience two times is enough for me to question their blackjack software, block myself from playing their casino, and telling others of my opinion.
I am assuming you are or were a bonus hunter, so then you would know that RTG software was crappy. And I'd place Pinnacle in the same category as RTG. As a sidenote, i stopped accepting bonuses cuz the wagering requirements are so ridiculous now, that if you do end up winning money and want to cash out, they'll use those wagering requirements BS if you accept a bonus. And i'd rather just use luck and skill to go positive and cash out without having them hassle me about wagering requirements.
My opinion still stands, Pinnacle had very weighted odds in their favor for their blackjack. Would it sway your opinion if i told you I had doubled my money on sportsbetting, and then pulled out the majority of my initial deposit? and Now i'm down a thousand from blackjack.
Anyway, common sense would suggest that if a sportsbook/casino is not making a profit on any given day, that a slight adjustment to casino odds could pull in some monies when needed, and there is no possible way a customer could contest them in court because they are operating in governments with who knows what kinds of legal systems, the customer has no proof that it was rigged even if the customer was able to take an online casino to court, and most likely the customer is performing illegal activities by gambling at an online casino to begin with. So common sense would lead me to believe that an online casino can and will adjust the odds in ther favor when needed. and common sense also leads me to believe that i am a moron for ever having wagerd such large amounts of money at an online casino.
Anyway, this happens to me every couple of years. I gamble, win some money, then get a bit loose and make some big greedy bets, get burned and then realize to stop gambling online. so I should be good for a few years... i hope i can make some wins on sportsbetting.
and to clarify, I think Pinnacle is great as a SportsBook and trust that they will pay you out and their user interface for SportsBetting is one of the best. But their Casino BlackJack is rigged and will take your money if you give them the chance...especially if your winning at the sportsbook...ALL pure speculation of course, but my personal opinion.Last edited by RamblinRoyce; 12-20-05, 02:34 PM.Comment -
Let me say one thing in this soon to be diverted thread. Pinnacle shouldn't be spotlighted. It's simply a matter of whether you trust online casinos or not. I personally do, because as someone said, reputable sportsbooks/casinos have nothing to gain by "rigging" their software. I don't play in online casinos, but it has nothing to do with trust.Comment -
It's not that I lost, Its what I read about how they can adjust the house
edge. Also I read that the software companies advertise they can make
the sportsbook a fixed amount. Hey I've played Craps in Vegas I know
the rollercoaster you are talking about. The casinos are rigged. I will
say one thing though. I haven't played that much blackjack with
online books,but I did win the 3-4 times I played everytime. But I
played for maybe 30 mins tops overall? so? But reading that they can
adjust odds when they want and tweak it up, makes me forever
leery..Comment -
I speak from personal experience when I say that Pinnacle Casino is the biggest rip-off on this side of the Galaxy.
The management should be placed under arrest for fraud and sent to do hard time in Iraq.
I played roulette once with them and witnessed the most bizarre occurences which cannot be explained by such things as random fluctuations or statistical abberations. Those occurences could only be deliberate and a compelling argument that Pinnacle Casino uses a software which is clearly designed to defraud unwary customers.
Pinnacle can kiss my hairy behind.Comment -
I agree with imgv94. if you owned an online casino, wouldn't you opt for the software that allows you to adjust the odds ? And like i stated in the large post above, no customer could contest or prove that your software is rigged...especially if you have these 'certificates' and 'audits' from these 'trusted' gaming commisions...
the truth is, logic would suggest online casinos can rig their software if needed. This makes business sense. And logic suggests to never play blackjack online for this reason, but GREED and human nature overpowers and stupidity led me to lose all my winnings... Really, i'm pissed at the the software, but using logic and common sense, it really was my own fault for losing all that money by playing at online casinos knowing that i have no method of contesting any cheating. So it is really mostly my fault.
And still I opine, Pinnacle BlackJack is Rigged.
Amen Betman. I can easily imagine what happened.Last edited by RamblinRoyce; 12-20-05, 02:50 PM.Comment -
Taco. You actually took away my rep points?? oh my god how dare
you!!! Hey if you say a few rounds of craps 1 more time I will
break your shell TACO!! hey whatever I will never play at those
casinos again. If you guys did win I am sincerely happy for you.
Probably what happened though is this-> I Am up at every book I have
ever played at. They rigged it for me to get some of the money back
I obviously have won(read my posts). As for you guys who won,they
rigged it in your favor cause you guys are losing your ass in the sportsbook,
so they feel you might leave if you keep it up. so they keep alive the
last thing that dies, HOPE!
The Last Thing That Dies Is Hope. If You Believe That. And that made you
think a little bit. Give me some rep points. its that little scale next to the PC
right above post reply...Comment -
I read the same reports IMG, but they were speaking of rogue software providers. I listed them above. Vendors using verified RNGs cannot rig the games.
I have made a great deal of money at RTG casinos in the past, Royce. I have no problem with their software. It is legit. Unfortunately, the majority of casinos that use their software simply will not pay you. Bodog uses RTG to power their casino. So are you going to call out both Pinnacle and Bodog in the same thread? You expect people to think 2 of the most powerful and trusted books in the world would be running rigged casino games?
Royce, if you are a good sportsbettor, I would suggest you avoid playing casinos straight up. It's possible to beat the lines (IMG can show you how), but not possible to beat the casinos. That's why they don't need to rig the games. If it only cost you a dime to figure that out then you got away cheap.
Bottom line; it was a bad session.Comment -
If you believe me and have made $ betting my winners,then go to that
scale and click approve! then go to tacomax and click unapprove..Comment -
betting with a reputable book on games I.E Football .Baseball etc... the result is the result ,when u can't see the card game (and even sometimes when u can) there rigged. I state again if u can't get free drinks and talk to the dealer STAY THE FVCK AWAY or you'll be sorry!Comment -
Don't ring Taco's Bell, IMG. Both of you are going up in points.Comment -
It was a dime net loss after including the profits...lets just say i was up ten times that net loss when i started. Now i'm down a dime and lost all my sportsbook wins...
Ok, i'll conced the online casinos do not rig their software as it really is not necessary...
But answer this question - If you owned an online casino, would you opt for the software provider which allows you to adjust the odds or the software that does not allow you to adjust the odds?
Can't you imagine a sales meeting and a powerpoint presentation highlighting the benefits of having the ability to adjust the odds in your online casino's favor?
Sales Rep for Casino Software:
"I mean c'mon, let's just say a 0.5% odds adjustment...no big deal...no harm done. And with millions wagered a day, this can turn into large profits for your casino and no customer will be the wiser and even if they are suspicious, what are they gonna do, TAKE US TO COURT!!! HAHAHAHAHA!"
Online Casino Mgmt: "HAHAHAHA!!...OK, Ok...i'll take it"
I mean c'mon, iset..., i concede it was a bad session. I concede the casinos do not have to rig their software as the statistical nature of the game is setup in their favor.
But will you concede that it makes business sense for an online casino to purchase adjustable odds software?
By using logic, common sense and the facts that it is very easy to perform an odds adjustment in a casino gaming program and that there is no possible method of legal action against them, will you agree that it is HIGHLY LIKELY they have the ABILITY to adjust odds in their favor?Last edited by RamblinRoyce; 12-20-05, 03:13 PM.Comment -
I definitely follow your line of reasoning Royce, but what it boils down to is this:
The biggest and best casino is going to be the one that does the most volume.
Volume can only come from significant playership and that only comes from trust. Believe me, if your numbers deviate even a small amount over a reasonable trial size, you will be exposed. Once you get exposed, you get no players. It's the same as a nopay book.
If I were going to run an online casino, I would take Playtech's approach and offer games that provide an independantly proven house edge that is better than anything offered in Vegas.Comment -
Isetcap, Exactly. It is about volume. And a trusted casino establishes enough clientele to rake in Money. Which is why I trusted Pinnacle's casino and wagered large sums of money. Maybe it was a bad session. BUT I STILL THINK PINNACLE RIGGED IT. And i believe any online casino can Rig their software, as imgv94 states.
And the truth is, no one really cares that i lost money from gambling on blackjack. I am sure i'm not the first or last. and my badmouthing Pinnacle is not going to affect their reputation or clientele. The truth is, I need to get a job so i don't spend most of my day gambling and/or complaining when i have a bad day. awwww, who i am kidding...i'm not gonna get a job...other than my current gambling job that is.
That's it. no more of this dead horse.
BUT I STILL THINK PINNACLE RIGGED IT. And i believe any online casino can Rig their software, as imgv94 states.Last edited by RamblinRoyce; 12-20-05, 03:27 PM.Comment -
Get a job?
Oh man, that is the funniest thing I have ever heard.
It's been over 3 years since I did something I considered "work". I'd much rather rake square money.Comment -
I see your point, but it's not so relevant. if you want rigged software, you can get rigged software - there are a lot of dodgy software providers out there, no-ones going to argue that fact.Originally posted by RamblinRoyce
Conversely If you want a good, fair, established software then you go with one of the big boys.
You've raised an interesting point there. It's true that a game is rigged whether it's an additional 0.5% or a 50% swing to the casino. However, anyone wanting to run a rigged casino won't be stupid - they'll know that the best way to maximise the profits is to tweak the odds slightly so that it will be pretty much impossible in the short to medium term for the player to notice. You're not going to be able to tell the difference between a 99.5% and a 99% payout unless you use a massive sample. But you're going to figure out a 50% house edge pretty quickly.Originally posted by RamblinRoyce
However, it seems that most people who scream "rigged!!!!!11111111" stick in $100 which they lose in $400 worth of wagers. So either:
1) The casino is advertising a 0.5% house edge game but rigging it to a permenant 25% house edge.
2) The player doesn't understand the concept of variance.
Which do you think is more likely?Originally posted by pags11Originally posted by BuddyBearOriginally posted by curiousComment -
correct, taco. deviation is at work here.
even i myself can be amazed at some of the sessions i have. i've seen the dealer get 5 blackjacks in a row. i've seen the dealer have 20 or better in 18 straight hands. i've deposited and lost $1000 betting $100 per hand without winning a single hand in the session (10 straight losses upon sitting at the table). i'd like to say i've seen it all but i'm smart enough to know that i haven't. one thing i have seen altogether too often is a player losing all his money and claiming fraud. i would imagine based on royce's level of experience that this was definitely a bad beat though. i'd love to see the tale of the tape.
royce, why don't you ask pinnacle for an audit of your sessions. let me take a look at them and i will report back without ridicule. we'll see how well pinnacle responds to this one.Comment -
Very good taco!! very good points!!! very articulate!!Originally posted by tacomax
you pretty much closed the book on this one. Very good
post!!! Really NO B.S that was good! You hit everything
with one swing of the bat bro!!! I take it back taco
is cool!! I am gonna add to yr rep points.Comment -
i agree with that, ask for the session transcipt and post it up here, i myself have done fairly well at online blackjack (I use AllPro, and I've up probably about 8-10k lifetime in their casino). I vary my bets and dont sit for too long, it seems to have worked for me in my lifetime.Comment -
I think they robbed me. And i've played a lot lackJack. And I think they can and do Rig games. From my recollection and recent experience. If you bet big, you lose. I recall making monies on reasonable sized bets at many online sites. And I also recall making very large bets 500+ at sites and having losing sessions. Much Much more than winning sessions with large stakes. Maybe that was all Bad Luck.
As for your question, obviously losing 100 after 400 in wagering is not a reasonable sample for crying rigged. And sure you could argue my wagering may not be a large enough sample for crying rigged, but i will anyway and i will use my experience as a basis (of which i can't prove to you nor anybody else).
RIGGED. and no more talk of this, it's like dipping my head in a bucket of salt and rubbing alcohol when i have a bleeding tear at my pee-hole. RIGGED.
as for posting the transcript...well, i'll get right to work on that...after christmas...i gotta leave town.
you will see many, many, many bad beats. dealer not busting, getiing 21, me doubling with 11 many times without ever getting above 17, and you could argue it was a bad streak. I UNDERSTAND THIS. No More. RIGGED.Last edited by RamblinRoyce; 12-20-05, 04:03 PM.Comment -
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Really? AllPro?? Tell Me More. Look I am catching theOriginally posted by Funnyguy25
bug again..Comment -
AllPro gets crapped on as a sportsbook, but there casino has always been fair to me. I mean I usually have a routine:
50 - Lose
50 - Lose
200 - Win
Cashout, repeat in like 2,3 hours.
U jsut need moderation and most of these casinos will pay out.Comment -
yup, moderation. I suspect for big bettors they like to flip the switch and take their monies. they don't wanna risk having to make a big payout. but that's just my experience. I've won tons on small bets, but every time i go big, there's this switch...and it could just be my bad luck. i'll get it back eventually. RIGGED. NO more, My head hurts.
and i requested a transcript / records of all my bets.Comment -
I had my Pinnacle casino disabled. I was getting killed on those drunken nights playing stud poker.Comment -
Good Decision. I'm sure you'll save $$$ in the long run...and i'm sure i'll save in the long run too after disabling the casino...and i'm sure HappyBoy never regrets disabling his casino options...
But i wonder, will we have as much fun in the long run?Comment -
Alright I'm going to put this to bed. I played Blackjack Switch at Bet Royal (playtech) with a $5000 deposit. They let me play switch to rollover the bonus I received because I am on their VIP list. I banged it around with decent size bets (100 - 300) for a couple of days and jacked it up to $12,000. Had a tremendous amount of wagering left to do and decided to max bet. That's $2000 on both hands. In less than 2 minutes my account was up to $32,000 and I cashed out.
Deposited 1000 at Yukon Gold (microgaming). Put it all on the Vegas Strip BJ table for the first hand. Won. Balance at 2000. Put all that (max bet) on the table and...
Blackjack......but the dealer had BJ too
Software must be rigged right?
Well, I played the 2000 again for my 3rd hand and I get an 11 against the dealer 3. So I had to deposit another 2000 to play my double down. Of course the casino operator is going to make sure I lose this hand.
Doubled down into a 21 and the dealer busted.
8000 cashed out.
I hope that is enough anecdotal evidence for anyone out there, because I can relay similar occurences to these all day long for weeks.Comment -
Go Put in 10,000 at PinnacleCasino and play the same way. 500 - 2000 bets. Let me know how you do.
That will put it to bed.Comment -
there's no advantage for me to play at pinnacle so there's no reason for me to accept the risk.Comment -
Or you can post the results of your play and we can analyse them.Originally posted by RamblinRoyce
That will definately put it to bed.Originally posted by pags11Originally posted by BuddyBearOriginally posted by curiousComment -
Odds against in Blackjack playing basic strategy with 2-1 blackjack.
Blackjack Calculator
Also Pinny is not rigged.Comment -
I don't agree with the program 100% but will say it's impossible to win long term in blackjack without the bonus in games in which cards are reshuffled after every hand.Comment -
put your money where your mouth is.Comment -
What are you talking about? It's mathematically impossible to win at blackjack with no bonus and a reshuffle after every hand.Comment
