Is health care a right or a luxury?

[losturmarbles]

Ive changed my position on free govt healthcare. Yes it should be provided, as long as anyone who gets any free healthcare(or any free govt service for that matter) from the govt. can and will pass a mandatory illegal substance test everytime you need healthcare. If you test negative, its all free, if you test positive you go straight to jail and serve the current sentence for whatever drug you tested positive for. At least youll still get free healthcare in prison.

Now, us Republicans are willing to compromise on free healthcare, so will the Democrats be willing to accept the compromise? Never happen, just like Obamas healthcare dream is never going to happen.

later

see, this is the problem with republicans. you don't mind the government overstepping it's purpose as long as it supports your agenda and/or dogma.

[Enogsiwon]

numerous great posts here by betplom and 5teamer.

What makes healthcare a right?
Same thing that makes all rights such: An agreement amongst people to set a standard. Unfortunately, this simple concept is beyond the grasp of indoctrinated yahoos.

you live in a dream world full of excuses and dont even realize it.. this is the problem

[20Four7]

What is really sad is America spends more on health care than any other country per capita and they have a system that really sucks. I have friends that are over 50K in debt due to "health care".

The issue with health care in the US is the HMO's, the insurance companies don't want to give up their enormous profits. As for the dude who wanted illegal drug tests, maybe they should test all the little rich bitches for valium, perks oxy's as well. Keep control of the rich who can afford their prescription drugs as well as the guy who smokes a little weed.

And what do americans have to show for all this spending.... they live a lot longer right...... WRONG.

Canada, Australia, Japan and most of europe have longer life expectancies than the US. apparently money can't buy everything.

[capitalist pig]

see, this is the problem with republicans. you don't mind the government overstepping it's purpose as long as it supports your agenda and/or dogma.

My only agenda is what my tax dollars are spent on.

later

[losturmarbles]

What is really sad is America spends more on health care than any other country per capita and they have a system that really sucks. I have friends that are over 50K in debt due to "health care".

The issue with health care in the US is the HMO's, the insurance companies don't want to give up their enormous profits. As for the dude who wanted illegal drug tests, maybe they should test all the little rich bitches for valium, perks oxy's as well. Keep control of the rich who can afford their prescription drugs as well as the guy who smokes a little weed.

And what do americans have to show for all this spending.... they live a lot longer right...... WRONG.

Canada, Australia, Japan and most of europe have longer life expectancies than the US. apparently money can't buy everything.

since when does life expectancy measure health care?

what sets the price of health care in our current system?

and what sets the price in a free market?

[20Four7]

I would think that the more money spent on "health care" a longer life would be expected. Canada spends about half of what the US spends and our life expentancy is about 4 years longer....

Health care in America is all about money, for doctors, for HMO's for insurance companies, not about quality of care.

[losturmarbles]

I would think that the more money spent on "health care" a longer life would be expected. Canada spends about half of what the US spends and our life expentancy is about 4 years longer....

Health care in America is all about money, for doctors, for HMO's for insurance companies, not about quality of care.

bullshit and more bullshit.

[20Four7]

bullshit and more bullshit.

the US spent approximately 4500 per person on health care with a life expectancy of about 77 years.

Canada spent approximately 2400 per person on health care with a life expectancy of over 80 years.

Now Japan spent 1,400 per person and has a life expectancy of almost 82 years.

Now which part is bull shit.

[losturmarbles]

care to share your source?

[20Four7]

Google is your friend:

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php

http://seekingalpha.com/article/146992-comparing-u-s-healthcare-spending-with-other-oecd-countries

http://www.alzheimersreadingroom.com/2009/08/healthcare-spending-relative-ranking-by.html

I gave the lower end of the estimates.

[20Four7]

never mind not worth it

[losturmarbles]

The UC Atlas of Global Inequality? yeah that sounds objective.

well none of those are actual sources, although the alzheimers site does reference the WHO.

first of all, none of these comparisons are apple to apple comparisons. the US does spend more money on health care than Canada, but what does that prove? that Canada is treating less people, ordering less tests, rationing?
last time i checked the US govt spends around 3300/person and Canadian govt spends around 2900/person. but that's from the OECD so who knows. but like i said, what does it prove?, what does it mean?

the life expectancy figures are anything but credible. the WHO measures life expectancy "at birth". their definition of life expectancy is "Average number of years that a newborn is expected to live if current mortality rates continue to apply."

and mortality rates are purposely deceiving. the US counts any baby that shows signs of life. most all other countries have additional requirements, like maturity of the pregnancy, weight, length. and many countries dont even count a baby that dies in the first 24 hours, even though nearly half of infant deaths occur in the first 24 hours.

besides, the crime mortality and car accident mortality is much higher in the US.

so anybody that uses life expectancy as an argument against US health care, is either purposely trying to spread misinformation or is an uninformed stooge.

[20Four7]

What the US governement spends and what the total cost of health care is to different animals. The total cost in health care spending by the governement in the us is approximately 45% of all health care spending. In Canada the total health care spending by the government is 71%. No point debating the point because it's obvious you have your mind made up.

Besides would you know a real source if you had one?

[losturmarbles]

What the US governement spends and what the total cost of health care is to different animals. The total cost in health care spending by the governement in the us is approximately 45% of all health care spending. In Canada the total health care spending by the government is 71%. No point debating the point because it's obvious you have your mind made up.

Besides would you know a real source if you had one?

no point in debating because youre not making a point.

what source do i need?, youre the one claiming life expectancy numbers mean something. then you post links to random google results as your reference.

[20Four7]

I'm not saying life expentancy means anything. What I am saying is that total dollars spent doesn't equal quality health care. I don't personally believe that people should go thousands of dollars into debt because they need an operation. A lot of countries provide health care to their citizens at a far lower cost than the US. And if they live a few years longer that's a bonus too.

The US health care system is about money and greed. The insurance companies wouldn't fight this hard to keep the current system if they thought it wasn't good.

[losturmarbles]

I'm not saying life expentancy means anything. What I am saying is that total dollars spent doesn't equal quality health care. I don't personally believe that people should go thousands of dollars into debt because they need an operation. A lot of countries provide health care to their citizens at a far lower cost than the US. And if they live a few years longer that's a bonus too.

The US health care system is about money and greed. The insurance companies wouldn't fight this hard to keep the current system if they thought it wasn't good.

i guess youre not now.

there you go with the flawed logic again. (total dollars spent) why dont you compare quality of life, or % of people screened for illnesses, or any rational comparison between 2 countries. no, all you want to do is repeat the same weak liberal arguments that one of your liberal heroes says to the media. at least they know theyre full of shit.

and what in this world isnt about money and greed? (whatever greed means) did you not watch the friedman/donahue clip?



i think we pay too much for health care. i think we pay way above a fair market price for health care. however, your solution for fixing it, fuks up research and advances and increases cost on tax payers. so not only do you not fix the price issue but you also stall advancements.
if you want to pay less, it's not rocket science, get rid of the fuking middleman. take the government out of the equation. and let market forces set the price.

[DwightShrute]

......

[bettilimbroke999]

You fukin neocons need to leave Friedman out of the health care argument, you cant let market forces determine how much someone should pay to live bc the demand is fukin limitless

Its not like you're walkin into Walmart and there's a certain amount ppl will pay for a TV we're talkin about life and death here

What 20k for me to live fuk that Doc, Ill live for 10k but Im gonna die if its 20k, you gotta bring that price down to equilibrium, I'd rather die with 20k in my pocket than live with 0

[losturmarbles]

You fukin neocons need to leave Friedman out of the health care argument, you cant let market forces determine how much someone should pay to live bc the demand is fukin limitless

Its not like you're walkin into Walmart and there's a certain amount ppl will pay for a TV we're talkin about life and death here

What 20k for me to live fuk that Doc, Ill live for 10k but Im gonna die if its 20k, you gotta bring that price down to equilibrium, I'd rather die with 20k in my pocket than live with 0

does anybody speak asstard? i need a translation.

i dunno what youre trying to say bettill, but you do realize that currently government and insurance companies collude to set prices.

[DwightShrute]

he does. won't admit it

[DwightShrute]

....

[bettilimbroke999]

Lost go into a hospital with a broken leg and have em perform surgery on your ass to keep you from draggin along the floor for the rest of your life, when they get done and hand you a bill for fukin 40k or whatever joke number they pull out of thin air to compensate for the hour they spent workin on your leg let me know if that sounds reasonable

I dont give a shit if the govt, hospitals are colluding what do you think if the prices werent set theyd give you a fair price? Fuk no they know theyve got you over a fukin barrel and they're gonna shove it as far up your ass as they feel like

I cant even imagine there being an equilibirum price for things like walking or living

And for the record you're extremely fluent in asstard

[losturmarbles]

Lost go into a hospital with a broken leg and have em perform surgery on your ass to keep you from draggin along the floor for the rest of your life, when they get done and hand you a bill for fukin 40k or whatever joke number they pull out of thin air to compensate for the hour they spent workin on your leg let me know if that sounds reasonable

I dont give a shit if the govt, hospitals are colluding what do you think if the prices werent set theyd give you a fair price? Fuk no they know theyve got you over a fukin barrel and they're gonna shove it as far up your ass as they feel like

I cant even imagine there being an equilibirum price for things like walking or living

And for the record you're extremely fluent in asstard

[reno cool]

Lost go into a hospital with a broken leg and have em perform surgery on your ass to keep you from draggin along the floor for the rest of your life, when they get done and hand you a bill for fukin 40k or whatever joke number they pull out of thin air to compensate for the hour they spent workin on your leg let me know if that sounds reasonable

I dont give a shit if the govt, hospitals are colluding what do you think if the prices werent set theyd give you a fair price? Fuk no they know theyve got you over a fukin barrel and they're gonna shove it as far up your ass as they feel like

I cant even imagine there being an equilibirum price for things like walking or living

And for the record you're extremely fluent in asstard

good points B.
I don't know if whatever bill they're debating is worth a shit. I'm pretty sure nothing passes in this country if it doesn't enrich some bs corporation. That's why as the public we need to stand up for our rights regardless of whether it's profitable for business. As 5teamer said: The govt didn't give us anything, we demanded it.

[fiveteamer]

I've read someone use Stockholm Syndrome as way to describe the people who defend the rights of the private insurers to keep doing what it is they do.

I felt that made a lot of sense.

[20Four7]

Bet,

no point debating with the ****tard.... he's set in his ways and doesn't care.

[BadNina]

It is not a "right". No one has that right. Money in health care is not spent on the healthy. People over the age of 65 and under the age of 21 have available health care. People with catastrophic illnesses can go on SSI for a temporary time if need be. Cancer is an automatic approval providing them with health care. These programs are already out of money. So if you multilply it times the population of the country....where is the money to run this going to come from? Businesses will drop the expense of providing private insurance for their employees. That just means an increase in taxes. At some point the money will run out and services will have to be cut. When you have the leading medical advisor to the President saying that the biggest problem in health care is the Hypocratic Oath, that doctors should stop doing what is best for their patients and do what is best for society and that doesn't scare the pee out of you then something is dead wrong.

Now how is that for a 5000th post.

[bettilimbroke999]

Nina plz just make us some sandwiches while we figure this out

[reno cool]

It is not a "right". No one has that right. Money in health care is not spent on the healthy. People over the age of 65 and under the age of 21 have available health care. People with catastrophic illnesses can go on SSI for a temporary time if need be. Cancer is an automatic approval providing them with health care. These programs are already out of money. So if you multilply it times the population of the country....where is the money to run this going to come from? Businesses will drop the expense of providing private insurance for their employees. That just means an increase in taxes. At some point the money will run out and services will have to be cut. When you have the leading medical advisor to the President saying that the biggest problem in health care is the Hypocratic Oath, that doctors should stop doing what is best for their patients and do what is best for society and that doesn't scare the pee out of you then something is dead wrong.

Now how is that for a 5000th post.

The biggest problem is these ****s dont practice the Hypocratic Oath. Exuberant profit needs to be taken out of all aspects of medicine. If it means that there will be no doctors left in America then shame on America.

[Shortstop]

Very interesting thread. Good arguments from both sides. My opinion is that healthcare is a privilege and not a right.

[andywend]

If you read bettillimbroke's earlier posts in this thread as compared to the later ones, it sounds like 2 different people with totally different political mindsets are posting under his name. The earlier posts seem very rational while his postings on page 4 resemble the left-wing lunatic he truly is.

5Teamer/20four7, I have no doubt that Canada spends less per person on health care than the U.S. The problem is Canada's socialized medical care system is ABSOLUTE DOGSHIT compared to the private practice system in the U.S. that 85% of our population currently enjoys.

Any socialized medical plan implemented in the U.S. will improve only slightly the 15% currently uninsured but will GREATLY REDUCE the quality for the other 85%.

The reason why there has been such an uproar by the American people at these townhall meetings is because we don't want Canada style/low quality socialized medical care. It might be good enough for you but its not good enough for us.

You can copy and paste all the statistics you want and they don't mean a damn thing. They only represent the opinion of the person compiling the statistics.

I can see any doctor I want for any reason within 24-48 hours whether I need general or specialized care. I don't consider it my right but a privilege that I am more than willing to pay for.

To all the Canadians and socialists around the world and those living within the U.S., take your socialized medicine and shove it where the sun don't shine.

[capitalist pig]

It is not a "right". No one has that right. Money in health care is not spent on the healthy. People over the age of 65 and under the age of 21 have available health care. People with catastrophic illnesses can go on SSI for a temporary time if need be. Cancer is an automatic approval providing them with health care. These programs are already out of money. So if you multilply it times the population of the country....where is the money to run this going to come from? Businesses will drop the expense of providing private insurance for their employees. That just means an increase in taxes. At some point the money will run out and services will have to be cut. When you have the leading medical advisor to the President saying that the biggest problem in health care is the Hypocratic Oath, that doctors should stop doing what is best for their patients and do what is best for society and that doesn't scare the pee out of you then something is dead wrong.

Now how is that for a 5000th post.

This is the best post in this whole thread, JMO.

later

[obamaismyuncle]

Health care is a right. We owe it to the unemployed mother's of 6 (all by different daddy's) to provide them and their kids with medical insurance, along with dental, vision, food stamps, clothing, school supplies, a good vehicle, spending money, and housing for all their different boyfriends. We also owe it to them to pay all their utilities and make sure they have a house phone, cell phone, and cable, along with a good computer (with DSL). We also owe it to them not to make fun of them in anyway for all of us TAX PAYERS who are paying for all of them.

[DwightShrute]

...

[CashMoney]

Healthcare is a right. Not everyone is an unwed ghetto mother who has 6 kids by 6 different baby daddies!

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Life - I guess we all have the right to live but we should all just phukin die if we can't afford to pay for a medical procedure?

Those against socialized health care are bitching and moaning about poor people who are taking handouts but who is talking about the working poor. The working poor who go to work everyday, make an honest dollar and barely have enough money to pay their expenses? I guess they're deadbeats because they should be able to make something better of themselves because we live in America where anything is possible. Those who actually believe this are simply not living in the real world.

The middle class of this country is dissappearing and the gov't is incompetent. Look at social security in this country. We all pay into it but we're not going to get anything in return for it. The gov can't run social security correctly yet we expect them to be able to run the healthcare system? It will never, ever happen. It's nothing more than wishful thinking on the parts of those who need it most.

The goverment should fear the people but the people fear the government in the good ol US of A. Let me pose a serious question.....

If the goverment is supposed to be by the people for the people then why don't the people have a say in the issues that effect them the most?