Is health care a right or a luxury?

[losturmarbles]

I am collecting donations for Bill Gates, he had to pay 25 billion in taxes and now has to scrape by on only the 50 billion he has left while homeless ppl enjoyed sidewalks to sleep on paid for entirely by taxes and paid no taxes at all. It is criminal for the government to steal from Bill Gates while the lazy homeless kick back and relax on brand new sidewalks while gorging themselves at the local soup kitchen and discussing how good they've got it as poor Bill is flown by helicopter to one of his yachts and tries to hide the pain

Save Bill Gates!

This ad paid for by the the losturmarbles foundation for the ethical treatment of billionaires

maybe you can make more than $8/hr as a comedy writer.

[bettilimbroke999]

I don't understand the nationalism on this thread. Why should I care where my or your parents fvcked?

That's how we determine who is more deserving of resources in this world, pure luck

You or I could've easily been born in sub-Saharan Africa and be dead of AIDS by now but since we were born in America we have a chance at a nice life, did we have any part in that chain of events fuk no, it was just pure luck

[losturmarbles]

leverage i think you mean patriotism. nothing wrong with patriotism as long as you identify yourself as an individual.

guys like bet and reno think any wealth not shared with the collective group is unmoral. profit motive is also a sin. capitalism is only good if it's restricted.
why? because you may become too rich.
what's too rich? well that's up to us (the poor) to decide. or maybe the government. because after all the government is more virtuous than you and i and should have the power to stop the evil greedy rich people from being too rich.
that would be only fair.

[DwightShrute]

leverage i think you mean patriotism. nothing wrong with patriotism as long as you identify yourself as an individual.

guys like bet and reno think any wealth not shared with the collective group is unmoral. profit motive is also a sin. capitalism is only good if it's restricted.
why? because you may become too rich.
what's too rich? well that's up to us (the poor) to decide. or maybe the government. because after all the government is more virtuous than you and i and should have the power to stop the evil greedy rich people from being too rich.
that would be only fair.

sad but true

They are somehow offended that someone is successful and would feel better if there were restrictions on anyone's success. They would want someone (the government) to decide what is the limit or the max someone can succeed.

I feel sorry for them.

[andywend]

Dwight/Marbles, you really hit the nail right on the head:

Poor liberal democrats think of people like Bill Gates and become absolutely enraged that Gates has so much and they have so very little.

They want their liberal politicians in congress to take as much as possible away from Bill Gates even if they knew they wouldn't receive a dime of it.

While liberal democrats think of conservatives as selfish, mean spirited people, the truth of the matter is most conservatives (myself included) don't mind giving a leg up to someone who is doing everything they possibly can to help themselves and support their families.

I've had numerous conversations with people who are working 2 jobs, putting in 60-80 hours per week, making $8 or $9 per hour and still don't have enough for the basic necessities. Its people like this that deserve our financial help. These people are the very definition of those that produce far more than they consume.

Whats ironic is the guy working 60 or 80 hours per week doesn't look at the rich and complain about how unfair everything is and I wouldn't be surprised if a higher than expected percentage of these hard working people vote republican.

Its the LEECHING, WELFARE COLLECTING BUMS doing all the complaining and feel the rich are actually taking advantage of them. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that the majority of these types of people embrace the democratic party and are actually angry at Barack Obama because he hasn't "showed them the money".

The immigrants of European descent who came off the boats in the 1800's/1900's would accept any work offered to them and were grateful for the opportunity regardless of how little the job paid. These people were the ones responsible for building America and made the country a much, better place for everyone. They produced far more than they consumed and embraced the idea of being Americans and proudly left their former countries behind.

Unfortunately, the immigrants of today are NOT of European descent and have a completely different mindset when it comes to America. Their allegiance and loyalty is to the country from which they came and the only thing on their minds is how to EXPLOIT the U.S. and all it has to offer courtesy of the democratic party who is more than willing to hand out the goodies at the expense of the hard-working U.S. taxpayer in hopes of gaining a brand new large block of future voters who will of course vote democratic across the board.

I certainly don't feel sorry for them and am actually threatened as they have the exact same voting power as we do.

[bettilimbroke999]

I thought I support the poor having health insurance bc Im a decent human being who doesn't mind a program which insures the health and well being of his fellow citizens for a very moderate raise in taxes which even to the middle income earners would result in probably saving money in the long run on their health insurance by cutting out the private insurer middlemen who are sucking billions out of the system.

Go do one of those low health insurance rate searches like ehealthinsurance.com and put in your real phone number, your phone wont stop ringing for a week with different companies wanting to sign you up for their health insurance plan, what do you think they are just highly charitable and concerned about your health and have a great deal for you, fuk no they do it bc they're gonna pocket a huge chunk of your premium for themselves, social insurance instantly saves billions each year by eliminating the insurers profits.

I assure you if we already had social insurance the conservatives would fight tooth and nail to keep it, oh we've earned it and the Constitution guarantees the right to life and liberty and how can we have life and liberty if we don't have access to medical care to keep us alive and blah blah blah

Why are the neocons that dont support social insurance not throwin a fit about Medicare, its an identical program that covers from 65 and on and somehow you feel all Americans have "earned that" and deserve that, why? I deserve to be healthy when Im 80 and about to die but not when Im 30 and have 50 years on average ahead of me? WTF?

[bettilimbroke999]

Also after finishing that post by andy and read the end about European immigrants, have you never heard of progress? The 1800s had ppl purchased as slaves and worked for zero, they're the ones who helped build this country, should we return to slavery since it is cost efficient?

Im sure that every new immigrant in the 1800s took whatever job was offered to them, what choice did they have, theyd just come to an absolutely brand new and undeveloped country, if I was born in Zimbabwe I wouldnt be having this conversation about social insurance to secure the well being of the ppl Id be pluckin feathers for a quarter an hour but does that make Zimbabwe a better country? They also have the same life expectancy that existed in the 1800s of about 35 years, so perhaps you need to hop a plane to Zimbabwe and check out the ideal reality you support.

Cave men didnt even worry about money they just smashed whatever lizard was runnin around and ate it, so why should we even concern ourselves with making money when we could all just go out and smash lizards if we're hungry

[soli]

Healthcare should be a right. Everybody that's willing to work can't find jobs and if they do find a job it's not guranteed to have Health Insurance.

[Heartman2]

So you hate the poor? Then you hate the soldiers. Since the birth of the U.S.A., it is a fact that the majority of soldiers who have fought and died in wars, come from the working class poor.

Nina, Andy and Lostmarbles are all greedy piles of shit who hate the poor. How many ****ing rich kids are there fighting and dying in Iraq? I gaurantee there are a lot of kids from the projects over there.

Poor people have a right to health care because their class of people have given more for this country than the middle and wealthy classes combined. They've given their lives.

[BadNina]

Unless I am mistaken, the cancer survival rate of the US is higher than Great Britian or Canada. That says a lot about our mean spirited country that has people dying in the streets cause no doctor will see them. (Did you like the tongue in cheek sarcasm there?)

Bet....it souns to me that you have a bad case of Rich Envy. Bill Gates developed something that people wanted and were willing to buy. He is entitled to every red cent he earns. Because he earned it. That is kinda the whole concept of a free market. If you have something people want and are willing to pay for it, then go for it. You are anti-doctors cause there are some that make a lot of money. So what? They went to school for x number of years to learn that and should be compensated for their services. Now I would like to see competition between doctors and hospitals. Have them advertise their services and prices. That would fix your health care problem.

[losturmarbles]

So you hate the poor? Then you hate the soldiers. Since the birth of the U.S.A., it is a fact that the majority of soldiers who have fought and died in wars, come from the working class poor.

Nina, Andy and Lostmarbles are all greedy piles of shit who hate the poor. How many ****ing rich kids are there fighting and dying in Iraq? I gaurantee there are a lot of kids from the projects over there.

Poor people have a right to health care because their class of people have given more for this country than the middle and wealthy classes combined. They've given their lives.

i am a greedy selfish capitalist. not sure what that has to do with servicemen.

so what in you opinion is "working class poor"?

i have the utmost and deepest respect for our servicemen, something you clearly dont as youre using them as some sort of ploy to persuade people that the poor deserve health care.

but clearly youre talking out of your ass, servicemen have government provided health care. (VA)

and also "poor" people have health care too. (medicaid)

so what the fuk was the purpose your post again? other than to make yourself look like a dumbfuk.

[losturmarbles]

Bet....it souns to me that you have a bad case of Rich Envy. .

lol no, not bet. no way.

he wants so bad to be a "rich" republican. he would switch sides in a heartbeat if he won the lottery.

[losturmarbles]

I thought I support the poor having health insurance bc Im a decent human being who doesn't mind a program which insures the health and well being of his fellow citizens for a very moderate raise in taxes which even to the middle income earners would result in probably saving money in the long run on their health insurance by cutting out the private insurer middlemen who are sucking billions out of the system.

Go do one of those low health insurance rate searches like ehealthinsurance.com and put in your real phone number, your phone wont stop ringing for a week with different companies wanting to sign you up for their health insurance plan, what do you think they are just highly charitable and concerned about your health and have a great deal for you, fuk no they do it bc they're gonna pocket a huge chunk of your premium for themselves, social insurance instantly saves billions each year by eliminating the insurers profits.

I assure you if we already had social insurance the conservatives would fight tooth and nail to keep it, oh we've earned it and the Constitution guarantees the right to life and liberty and how can we have life and liberty if we don't have access to medical care to keep us alive and blah blah blah

Why are the neocons that dont support social insurance not throwin a fit about Medicare, its an identical program that covers from 65 and on and somehow you feel all Americans have "earned that" and deserve that, why? I deserve to be healthy when Im 80 and about to die but not when Im 30 and have 50 years on average ahead of me? WTF?

i'm still waiting for food to be a right. them fukin greedy farmers and their profits. people shouldnt profit from food!

WE SHOULD HAVE FREE FOOD!

who needs health care, when we HAVE TO PAY FOR FOOD?!?!!

[BadNina]

And who can have a pursuit of happiness without a car? I think cars and gas should be free.

And by gas I don't mean Dad after some refried beans either.

[bettilimbroke999]

and also "poor" people have health care too. (medicaid)

Yea right, go be absolutely dirt poor and apply for Medicaid in TN and see how far you get, more ultraconservative BS

The argument lost if you havent figured it out is against pure capitalism, see in pure capitalism you could guesstimate that a person's toilet scrubbing skills are worth a quarter an hour if you want since pretty much everyone has the ability to scrub a toilet (and in many places in the world they do) then have that person rot to death in a tin shack (as they do in many places in the world) but the problem is many of us liberal lunatics actually see our fellow Americans as human beings and dont want that to happen to them

Sure you wouldnt have any problem seeing children starving to death and dying of diseases in the streets bc their parents were poor youd just say they should put that 5 yr old to work in a coal mine to earn his keep but many of us feel society in the developed world has progressed beyond the 1700s frontier lifestyle that you prefer

Now granted if there's any fairness in the universe you'll be reincarnated in some third world hellhole and be the victim of the greedy selfish pure capitalists that enslave the poor but until then we'll have to just ignore you since you dont have any perspective from which to speak

You've admitted you're a selfish pure capitalist that cares about no one but yourself and will only support programs which directly benefit you, that's why you are Republican and assume that everyone who wants to help the poor is jealous of you bc you've got your head shoved approx 2 ft up your ass

[bettilimbroke999]

i'm still waiting for food to be a right. them fukin greedy farmers and their profits. people shouldnt profit from food!

WE SHOULD HAVE FREE FOOD!

who needs health care, when we HAVE TO PAY FOR FOOD?!?!!

The poor are already eligible for food stamps you are already guaranteed food

Its impossible to even talk to many of the brainwashed neocons on here, just spend another 10 trillion on pointless wars thats the only thing worth spending tax dollars on

Social insurance is a program that will benefit pretty much everyone not just the poor, but you neocons are too busy trying to find something positive GWB did to realize it

[losturmarbles]

Yea right, go be absolutely dirt poor and apply for Medicaid in TN and see how far you get, more ultraconservative BS

The argument lost if you havent figured it out is against pure capitalism, see in pure capitalism you could guesstimate that a person's toilet scrubbing skills are worth a quarter an hour if you want since pretty much everyone has the ability to scrub a toilet (and in many places in the world they do) then have that person rot to death in a tin shack (as they do in many places in the world) but the problem is many of us liberal lunatics actually see our fellow Americans as human beings and dont want that to happen to them

Sure you wouldnt have any problem seeing children starving to death and dying of diseases in the streets bc their parents were poor youd just say they should put that 5 yr old to work in a coal mine to earn his keep but many of us feel society in the developed world has progressed beyond the 1700s frontier lifestyle that you prefer

Now granted if there's any fairness in the universe you'll be reincarnated in some third world hellhole and be the victim of the greedy selfish pure capitalists that enslave the poor but until then we'll have to just going to ignore you since you dont have any perspective with which to speak

You've admitted you're a selfish pure capitalist that cares about no one but yourself and will only support programs which directly benefit you, that's why you are Republican and assume that everyone who wants to help the poor is jealous of you bc you've got your head shoved approx 2 ft up your ass

bet i've got a new word for ya: individual. nah never mind it dont have the same ring a selfish greedy pile of shit.

i think it's already been established that i hate the poor. and the only thing i hate more than the poor, is starving children that dont like to work.

gee, how did we become "the developed world"? i bet the government did it. it gave us prosperity. if not for the government, we'd still be scrubbing toilets for 25c/hr and sending our children down mine shafts.

hey, if we keep swallowing what the government gives us, i wont have to wait for a second life to find myself in a third world hellhole.

selfishness is a virtue, bet. now don't go and start lying on me. i care about some people, i never said i only care about myself, but even if that were true it would be irrelevant. i only support programs that support freedom. and freedom doesnt care what political party you belong to.

A society that puts equality...ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom. -friedman

[losturmarbles]

The poor are already eligible for food stamps you are already guaranteed food

Its impossible to even talk to many of the brainwashed neocons on here, just spend another 10 trillion on pointless wars thats the only thing worth spending tax dollars on

Social insurance is a program that will benefit pretty much everyone not just the poor, but you neocons are too busy trying to find something positive GWB did to realize it

but i want government food. i dont want the government to subsidize my income so i can buy food. i want the government to produce it's own food. it can compete with the private food sector. we need a government takeover of food.


(and the poor have insurance bet, why do i have to keep repeating that)

[bettilimbroke999]

Well at least you're honest lost, enjoy that reincarnation in Zimbabwe dont infringe on anyone's life or liberty by wanting food or treatment for the AIDS youll be born with as that would require someone to give a shit about you

[bettilimbroke999]

but i want government food. i dont want the government to subsidize my income so i can buy food. i want the government to produce it's own food. it can compete with the private food sector. we need a government takeover of food.


(and the poor have insurance bet, why do i have to keep repeating that)

What insurance do the poor have lost? Free incineration after death?

The govt will not takeover health care it will simply run an insurance program which replaces private insurance, it will be virtually identical to the current system except rather than get a bill for several hundred dollars each month from Fukyouintheass Insurance Co youd get an additional 3.5% taken out of your check

[losturmarbles]

i'm goin be rich biatch!

[losturmarbles]

What insurance do the poor have lost? Free incineration after death?

no, i (the tax payer) have to pay for that too. FUK.

[losturmarbles]

The govt will not takeover health care it will simply run an insurance program which replaces private insurance

lol you actually believe that horseshit?

[bettilimbroke999]

Look at Canada's program, look at our Medicare program, imagine Medicare covering ppl from age 21 instead of age 65

[losturmarbles]

Look at Canada's program, look at our Medicare program, imagine Medicare covering ppl from age 21 instead of age 65

so is it a takeover or not?

yeah look at medicare. already paying 15.3% into a empty trust fund, that it supposed to be investing and growing, but it's is only full of IOUs from the government general fund.

[BadNina]

He really doesnt get that service quality will go down, does he?

[bettilimbroke999]

Only 2.9% to Medicare 1.45% matched not 15.3% and if you consider Medicare a govt takeover of health care then you would consider extending it to age 21 to be a takeover as well, personally I dont

I see access to medical care as something Im willing to pay for with a slight raise in taxes to insure for all Americans including myself

Now if you want to get into the long-term sustainability of any countries social insurance program then look at Canada's and realize they are not only fully funded by operating at a surplus with a 4.95% matched system, perhaps the reality is 1.45% matched for 65 and older is simply not enough funding, that is basically nothing when you consider what health insurance costs for 65+ year olds during a period in which 70% of all lifetime medical costs are incurred, as I mentioned previously a full 26% of your lifetime medical costs are spent during your last year of life alone

[BadNina]

Then why is our cancer survival rate higher? Why not load up the truck and head north? Fivey has a spare room.

[bettilimbroke999]

He really doesnt get that service quality will go down, does he?

Canada's life expectancy is 2.5 years LONGER than ours with virtually no one paying the ridiculous health insurance premiums Americans are gouged by monthly and no one without insurance, Canadian Medicare is fully funded with a 4.95% matched payroll tax compared to US Medicare 65+ underfunded with a 1.45% matched payroll tax

[bettilimbroke999]

Then why is our cancer survival rate higher? Why not load up the truck and head north? Fivey has a spare room.

Cancer survival rates are also high in Canada and Sweden as well both with social insurance (current rankings are US, Sweden, Canada), you would not be denied cancer treatment bc of a switch to social insurance

It is clear from all the studies that Canada's health care system is at least on par with the US system, in fact overal the US ranks relatively low when compared with other developed countries (most of which have socialized health care)

US current worldwide ranking #37, just behind Chile and Costa Rica

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

[losturmarbles]

bet, the point was 15.3% is flat taxed to anybody working (FICA), that was suppose to go into a trust fund for when you retire. but that trust fund is a slush fund for government agents to spend on social programs that exacerbate the problems the programs claim to fix.

youre fooling yourself if you believe these hypocritical moon bats, if they told you it was only going to cost 1.45% more. i dont fukin care about canada. canada doesnt have a total outstanding debt around 12 trillion and a projected 10 trillion deficit over the next 10 years. so in 10 years we'll be 22 trillion in debt. and in the mean time we're paying interest on all that, and obama talking about PAYGO yet his budget blows it by 4 trillion. so where is that 4 trillion coming from? and here you are talking about expanding government, that it's only going to cost a little bit more.

bullllllshit.

[losturmarbles]

Canada's life expectancy is 2.5 years LONGER than ours

false.

Cancer survival rates are also high in Canada and Sweden as well both with social insurance (current rankings are US, Sweden, Canada), you would not be denied cancer treatment bc of a switch to social insurance

It is clear from all the studies that Canada's health care system is at least on par with the US system, in fact overal the US ranks relatively low when compared with other developed countries (most of which have socialized health care)

US current ranking #37, just behind Chile and Costa Rica

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

you, are a fool.

[bettilimbroke999]

false.

Your false is false

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthy_life_table2.html

you, are a fool.

Good argument

[bettilimbroke999]

bet, the point was 15.3% is flat taxed to anybody working (FICA), that was suppose to go into a trust fund for when you retire. but that trust fund is a slush fund for government agents to spend on social programs that exacerbate the problems the programs claim to fix.

youre fooling yourself if you believe these hypocritical moon bats, if they told you it was only going to cost 1.45% more. i dont fukin care about canada. canada doesnt have a total outstanding debt around 12 trillion and a projected 10 trillion deficit over the next 10 years. so in 10 years we'll be 22 trillion in debt. and in the mean time we're paying interest on all that, and obama talking about PAYGO yet his budget blows it by 4 trillion. so where is that 4 trillion coming from? and here you are talking about expanding government, that it's only going to cost a little bit more.

bullllllshit.

I said it would cost 3.5% more and that we're currently paying 1.45% for Medicare, yes the govt is in debt up to our eyeballs, perhaps we should've taxed more

[BadNina]

Do you agree that Medicare is broke? That Social Security is broke? As in no monies?