Is health care a right or a luxury?

[losturmarbles]

Your false is false

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthy_life_table2.html

Good argument

gawd, how many times do i have to prove these same lame tables to be complete worthless to anyone seeking anything resembling the truth about how countries compare in health.

these are so easy discredit. any rational person would take caution in using these tables as some basis of an argument.

bet, you must have multiple personalities. i think one bozo starting talking about life expectancies in this thread. and now youre starting with the same lame argument.

here's your "good argument". i'm not repeating myself again. it's toward the end of this thread:
I dont get why Americans arent down with our Canadian healthcare system

[bettilimbroke999]

Do you agree that Medicare is broke? That Social Security is broke? As in no monies?

Then raise taxes, Ill toss in 10% of my paycheck to get the US out of debt, insure the masses and give a retirement pension to every American including myself, I'd like there to actually be some SS around for this 6.9% they take from me on each check, I'd like there to actually be some Medicare for this 1.45% they take from me on each check, Id rather them raise taxes to sustainable levels then just have my money thrown away and get nothing for it

[bettilimbroke999]

gawd, how many times do i have to prove these same lame tables to be complete worthless to anyone seeking anything resembling the truth about how countries compare in health.

these are so easy discredit. any rational person would take caution in using these tables as some basis of an argument.

bet, you must have multiple personalities. i think one bozo starting talking about life expectancies in this thread. and now youre starting with the same lame argument.

here's your "good argument". i'm not repeating myself again. it's toward the end of this thread:
I dont get why Americans arent down with our Canadian healthcare system

Check out the WHO website for adult mortality rates between ages 15-60 which is perfect for this argument bc we're talkin about ages 21-64 and compare the deaths per 1000 of US to developed countries with socialized health care

Even in your post in that thread you realize that US health care probably doesn't beat socialized health care so what the fuk is your argument, at worst that it will stay the same if not get better? And that it will be cheaper for virtually everyone and cover every American? Those arent very convincing arguments against social insurance

[BadNina]

Then raise taxes, Ill toss in 10% of my paycheck to get the US out of debt, insure the masses and give a retirement pension to every American including myself, I'd like there to actually be some SS around for this 6.9% they take from me on each check, I'd like there to actually be some Medicare for this 1.45% they take from me on each check, Id rather them raise taxes to sustainable levels then just have my money thrown away and get nothing for it

Raising taxes isn't the solution. The taxes you pay now are suppose to be going into a trust fund. But they are not cause the Congress takes the monies out and uses it for other stuff. They can tax us all 100% and there still would not be any monies in there. Now the same group that has taken all the monies that is suppose to be for Medicare and SS want to handle everyone (with themselves being the exceptions) health care. Are you naive enough to believe that they will not use that earmarked money for other stuff and bankrupt it too?

[bettilimbroke999]

Babydoll listen (grab a couple slices of bread and put em together with some ham for me while you're reading this) the trillion + dollar wars that the Republicans like to terrorize the globe with need to be paid for, now you have two choices either empty the funds paid for by taxes to pay for them or raise taxes, clearly the Republican administrations that have monopolized the last 30 terrifying plummeting years for the USA have decided to fleece the funds, now the truth is if you want to have socialism (which I personally do) as I believe its a combination of the best aspects of both capitalism and communism then you have to have reasonable taxes, its a tradeoff you see. Whats amazing is that we spend 30 billion a year on food stamps but 600 billion a year on the military (which is just the Department of Defense's budget not including defense reserach, VA, etc) and bitch that the poor getting food stamps is whats putting this country in the hole

As of 2009 the US is spending over 1 trillion annually for defense-related purposes.

35 years food stamps = 1 year defense, yet its food stamps that are somehow responsible for the deficit and the fleecing of social insurance programs interesting, very interesting

[reno cool]

Babydoll listen (grab a couple slices of bread and put em together with some ham for me while you're reading this) the trillion + dollar wars that the Republicans like to terrorize the globe with need to be paid for, now you have two choices either empty the funds paid for by taxes to pay for them or raise taxes, clearly the Republican administrations that have monopolized the last 30 terrifying plummeting years for the USA have decided to fleece the funds, now the truth is if you want to have socialism (which I personally do) as I believe its a combination of the best aspects of both capitalism and communism then you have to have reasonable taxes, its a tradeoff you see. Whats amazing is that we spend 30 billion a year on food stamps but 600 billion a year on the military and bitch that the poor getting food stamps is whats putting this country in the hole

We actually spend more on interest from debts incurred from past wars then we spend on food stamps

As of 2009 the US is spending over 1 trillion annually on defense-related projects.

Yes this argument is way too simple for right wingers to understand.

Marbles will counter this by saying selfishness is a virtue. And governments legit roll is to start bogus wars not address the needs of the public.

[BadNina]

Bet hun, you want mustard on that? Now sweety, I realize you are from TN so I will try to type slowly for ya. Defense is one thing that is mandated by the Constitution for them to do. The SS trust fund was not emptied out during the past 8 years. It has been that way almost since its inseption back in the FDR days. And if ya like the deficit now just hang on to your socks cause you are soooo gonna love it. Your great great grandkids might hate ya for it though.

[bettilimbroke999]

Yes this argument is way too simple for right wingers to understand.

Marbles will counter this by saying selfishness is a virtue. And governments legit roll is to start bogus wars not address the needs of the public.

Exactly, selfishness is a virtue, terrorizing other countries is a virtue, the only things that offend lost is seeing the poor with basic needs (food, shelter, medical care) for some reason that just disgusts him and I dont really know why, he has basically no problem with the deficit skyrocketing due to over a trillion plus spent annually for defense-purposes, but spend 30 billion a year feeding the poor and he goes nuts

Dead Iraqis which were of no threat to the US = 600 billion/year
Feeding poor Americans in the ghetto to keep them from starving = 30 billion/year

Conclusion stop feeding poor Americans to balance the budget

[bettilimbroke999]

Bet hun, you want mustard on that? Now sweety, I realize you are from TN so I will try to type slowly for ya. Defense is one thing that is mandated by the Constitution for them to do. The SS trust fund was not emptied out during the past 8 years. It has been that way almost since its inseption back in the FDR days. And if ya like the deficit now just hang on to your socks cause you are soooo gonna love it. Your great great grandkids might hate ya for it though.

I know I know the fukin Constitution says spend 600 billion a year destroying/rebuilding countries for no reason and says nothing about feeding the poor or universal health care, idk maybe universal health care wasn't a hot topic when it was written back in the 1700s

And yes some mustard would be appreciated

[BadNina]

Mustard it is. Want some lettuce, tomato and cheese too?


I really feel sorry for you. I truly do.

[bettilimbroke999]

I just want to add that the Constitution is a great document and guarantees the standard rights we all enjoy but SS which keeps 40% of the elderly out of poverty and Medicare which provides health care to the elderly weren't part of the Bill of Rights, does that mean they should be eliminated and 40% of the elderly thrown out on the street with no health care, lost would have had your Medicare paid for pacemaker granddad flippin burgers at McDs to keep the lights on right up until he took his last pacemakerless breath but others of us are fine with the elderly being allowed medical care and receiving a retirement pension, I dont really want to see untreated Alzheimer's patients strokin out on me while ringin up my order at BK bc it will save me 1% on my taxes

Uhh may I take your order

Yes Ill have a #1

Whats a #1

Its a whopper combo

Whats a whopper combo

You serve it here its food

Whats food

Nevermind can I get another Alzheimers cashier this ones too far gone time to head home to the park bench gramps

[reno cool]

I think you have taken the argument to it's logical conclusion B. Good job.

Anyone who believes in denying medical attention to those in need is either a sadist or ignorant.

[bettilimbroke999]

Mustard it is. Want some lettuce, tomato and cheese too?


I really feel sorry for you. I truly do.

No thanks on the lettuce and tomato but Ill have some cheese (Im not really a salad kinda guy)

I really feel you're brainwashed beyond comprehension and that one day youll be unable to work and have no SS or Medicare to fall back on and be reshitting your soiled diaper in the street bc you supported spending trillions on pointless wars which bankrupt the country instead of funding social insurance programs. I truly do.

[bettilimbroke999]

I think you have taken the argument to it's logical conclusion B. Good job.

Anyone who believes in denying medical attention to those in need is either a sadist or ignorant.

Thanks for the pts reno yea Im done with this thread I meant to quit along time ago but the neocons kept luring me back in with ridiculously illogical posts which are so easily disproven its hard not to reply. The truth is anyone who is against socialized health care is either completely ignorant or a jackass or both and any argument they can come up with can be typed into the search bar and has already been disproven 100x over which is why almost all developed countries have already adopted socialized health care.

[20Four7]

Bet,

that's why I quit replying..... you could post US government data and it's not enough. They are just upset because after 8 years of the Bush gov't putting the US through hell they are not in power. Remember Bush started this mess and Obama inherited it. The war in iraq was supposed to be short and sweet

[bettilimbroke999]

I completely agree, I really wish SBR would just delete this thread altogether, some of the posts seem like there's some shreds of something like intelligence but there's really not, basically do you believe the sick should have access to medical care yes or no?

Most 5 year olds could figure this out in 2 secs

[Pokerjoe]

And yet public support for health care reform is dropping. The sick rich health care corporations (pun intended) are putting out enough propaganda to fool enough people.

So it isn't actually health care reform we need, it's education reform.

If we want, we can make a highlight film from last year's NFL season, we can make the Lions look great and the Steelers look bad. It wouldn't be hard to make such a highlight film, and it would fool anyone who is ignorant of football.

The health care companies do that. They make socialized medicine look bad and US health care look good by carefully choosing what to highlight. And they can fool anyone ignorant about health care.

[bettilimbroke999]

Thanks for the points Joe and agree completely, socialized health care has become the standard in the developed world bc in any sane developed country the citizens will demand needed medical care for all citizens, only in the US will they say nooooo allowing sick ppl to see a doctor will rob me of life and liberty and blah blah blah when in truth the plan would prolly save that neocon money over what he spent on health insurance, be a much more efficient system by eliminating the health insurance middlemen sucking billions out of the premiums they extort from us and shoving them in their own pockets and provide health care for all American citizens including the 50 million uninsured which 100% absolutely should be a right and its amazing this is even up for discussion

Currently the neocons believe if you get mildly sick you should suffer since you cant afford to seek the simple treatment like antibiotics which would cure you in a heartbeat and prevent your disease from progressing

If you get seriously sick you will receive no treatment beyond your initial emergency room visit (bc thats the only place that will accept you without insurance) which happens to be by fukin far the most expensive treatment method in existence, then any follow up treatments of course are not available, break your leg and need rehab fuk you, get a disease and need a follow up fuk you, meanwhile you've had to file bankruptcy after months of being hassled by collections for the 50k bill the hospital says you owe them which if you could afford to pay you'd have had health insurance already and your only alternative was live with a broken leg for the rest of your life

[DwightShrute]

[Cappy]

So it's imperative that you be able to recite the genesis of the simple human right to affordable health care in a society that can cheaply provide, for it to be consider a "right".

Odom- "If you don't know what gives you the right to not be treated like pair of used underwear then I guess you just don't deserve it"

Me- "hmm, I'm a contributing member of an incredibly rich society that has turned basic human health into a commodity... But I guess you're right, health is a privilege to be enjoyed only by land owners."

[andywend]

bettillimbroke, you said you make $8/hour and even if you work 40 hours per week (which I highly doubt), that totals $320/week so when you said you would be willing to pay 10% extra in taxes (something I also highly doubt), that amounts to $32 per week which is NOT enough for unlimited medical care whenever you want it.

Therefore, you either need to get a better paying job (which probably is impossible) or work 2 full time jobs @ $8/hour and put in 80 hours per week. Then if you're willing to pay 20% extra in taxes on both jobs (instead of the 10% you offered), we'd be looking at $128/week towards your medical insurance which is a more realistic figure as to what the true costs really are.

Its not the fault of the rich that you're too damn stupid to get a decent paying job.

Its time to start telling off these left-wing lunatics who are trying to pound government controlled socialized medicine down our throats.

[jon101]

Thats easy at $8 an hour here is what you do. you make 200% of poverty level and you get medicaid partial coverage and pay some copays and out of pocket because you don't qualify for full coverage.
At which point your medical is covered, and you can proceed to the food stamp office, and then you will get about $100 extra to cover some free meals from uncle sam. When your done doing that and if you have kids they add more, dependants help increase the total amount of food you get. Thats a health plan thats worth $6000+ dollars a year, and $1200 from Uncle Sam. Now you add that up:

Salary=16000 /year
Health Insurance Benefit Value-$6500
Food=1200

You now have the income and benefits of a person earning $24K a year instead.

[bettilimbroke999]

Thats easy at $8 an hour here is what you do. you make 200% of poverty level and you get medicaid partial coverage and pay some copays and out of pocket because you don't qualify for full coverage.
At which point your medical is covered, and you can proceed to the food stamp office, and then you will get about $100 extra to cover some free meals from uncle sam. When your done doing that and if you have kids they add more, dependants help increase the total amount of food you get. Thats a health plan thats worth $6000+ dollars a year, and $1200 from Uncle Sam. Now you add that up:

Salary=16000 /year
Health Insurance Benefit Value-$6500
Food=1200

You now have the income and benefits of a person earning $24K a year instead.

Sounds pretty good but unfortunately the neocons are just shoveling more BS with no basis in reality, if u have no kids and make 16k a year you dont qualify for food stamps (its need based), Medicaid in TN opened eligibility in 94 and closed eligibility in 95 I dont care if you're making 0/year you're not getting on Medicaid in TN, also health insurance is not nearly that high, they're not chargin a single healthy 30 yr old 700 a month, maybe they scam the brainless neocons wholl pay those premiums but there would be no 30 yr old on insurance if it was that high, socialized health insurance benefits everyone and just like Medicare at a minimal cost, the only ppl who support pure capitalism and denying basic needs to the working poor, elderly and disabled are neocons that feel the only well spent tax dollar is headed to Iraq

I am no longer posting in this thread as the neocons have absolutely no logical arguments that arent disproven within 5 secs, the vast majority of the developed world has adopted socialized health care bc its the right thing to do, bc denying medical care to the sick to save 1% on taxes is not something any person with their head outside of their asshole will choose to support

We spend over 650 billion a year fighting wars and 30 billion a year feeding the poor, the neocons will tell you the 30 billion on food stamps is why the national debts at 12 trillion

[DwightShrute]

I am no longer posting in this thread

[Dbldown11]

The biggest issue I have with this nonsense is that the right wingers that are god fearing people and SCREAM AND YELL about abortion and gay marriage and how the government needs to step in and stop it from happening seem to have no concern for the fact that we don't provide basic health care coverage for our citizens, and say the government should stay out of it. funny how that works huh? So god cares if two men love eachother, however he doesnt care that we dont provide health care for our citizens and we let big multi billion dollar corporations control our health care refuse to cover certain people?

That's a funny god some of you believe in

[Dbldown11]

Raising taxes isn't the solution. The taxes you pay now are suppose to be going into a trust fund. But they are not cause the Congress takes the monies out and uses it for other stuff. They can tax us all 100% and there still would not be any monies in there. Now the same group that has taken all the monies that is suppose to be for Medicare and SS want to handle everyone (with themselves being the exceptions) health care. Are you naive enough to believe that they will not use that earmarked money for other stuff and bankrupt it too?

Well first of all if they taxed everyone 100% there would be plenty of monies. Second of all the "senators refust to take this plan for themself" argument is just another of the dumb conservative arguments.

First of all since the bill isnt mandating certain insurance why should the FEDERAL EMPLOYEES have to change it? That would be doing something the right is so afraid of. You want people to still have a choice in their insurance right? But yet you want the FEDERAL EMPLOYEES to have a certain plan mandated for them?

Conservatives trip over themselves constantly and say whatever is convenient even though it makes no sense.

And by the way i capitalized FEDERAL EMPLOYEES because it's not just senators and congressman that have this "special" insurance coverage it's all federal employees. Plus the type of insurance pool that the federal employees have is the very same type of pool they want to create with this reform with the public option.

So now that I've done my best to explain these things....what say you?

[jon101]

Yeah hate to say it in my state medicaid is ongoing enrollment. And it is up to 200% of poverty level will get you a form of coverage.

[d2bets]

I don't understand why education is a right but not health care. For those that say health care for all is socialism, then isn't education for all socialism as well? Of course it is. Isn't that bad too? If not, why not? You have a right to get an education, but not to be healthy enough to learn or even to live if you can't afford live saving treatment? What sense does this make?

Anyone against health care as a right care to posit that education should not be a right either?

[DwightShrute]

The fundamental question that the Communist Obama Administration has never answered is a simple one: How can they treat 50 million new patients with no extra doctors? A new report from the American Association of Medical Colleges underscores the urgency of this concern. The Association notes that the United States now suffers from a shortage of 15,000 doctors-a shortfall that is expected to grow to 125,000 in fifteen years. And, the Association reports, if universal health insurance is passed, the shortage will grow to over 150,000 by 2025.
While the number of elderly people in the U.S. is expected to grow by 60% over the next decade and a half, the number of doctors will increase by only about 6%. Total U.S. population will rise by about 17% over the same period. This shortage of doctors will, inevitably, lead to the rationing of medical care, more quickly and drastically if the Socialist Obama plan is passed. In Massachusetts, where universal health coverage was enacted in 2006, the Medical Society found that the number of patients who reported difficulty in getting care has already risen by 50% up to a quarter of the patient population. The New York Times reports that “a main reason for the logjam was long waiting times for appointments.”
In 1949, when Liberal Socialist President Harry Truman first proposed mandatory health insurance, he coupled his initiative with an expansion of federal aid to medical schools. But Obama makes no provision for an expansion of the pool of doctors, even as he grows the population of patients by up to 50 million.
Indeed, by cutting medical fees by dropping the reimbursement rates under Medicare, he likely will hasten the retirement of many medical professionals worsening the underlying shortage. The Times quotes medical experts as predicting that the three years specified in the House bill as the time by which universal health insurance coverage will take effect “is not nearly enough time to build the supply of doctors needed to care for the additional tens of million of people who would become newly insured.” Because there will not be enough doctors, nurses, and medical equipment for the massive influx of patients under the Obama plan, there will be rationing, more draconian year after year. As in Canada, it is this fundamental discrepancy between the number of patients and the population of doctors that will lead to rationing. From there, the inevitable consequence will be cutbacks in care for the elderly. Optional procedures, vital to quality life but not to survival, are likely to be limited. Hip replacements, new knees, hearing aids, and such are less and less likely to be approved. And, medical administrators will be less likely to OK surgery or expensive medical treatments for the elderly who they perceive to be at the end of their “quality” years. It is the shortage of doctors, not any specific language in the text of the legislation, that makes rationing and the so-called “death panels” cited by Sarah Palin inevitable.
Just another reason why Obamacare is as ****ing stupid!!!

[reno cool]

50 million new patients? And the alternative is to not treat them? Give it up man. People who need medical attention are going to get it. Anything less should not be tolerated. This isn't the Dark Ages.

[losturmarbles]

50 million new patients? And the alternative is to not treat them? Give it up man. People who need medical attention are going to get it. Anything less should not be tolerated. This isn't the Dark Ages.

the only places that have people in need of medical attention and don't get it are ones in the socialist utopias that you cherish.

take venezuala for example, a third of the country live in complete filth. they either dont have running water or if they do they can't drink it, that is unless they want to get hepatitis. their children grow up starving and malnuturished. but hey, at least they have free health care.

alternatives? i guess if government didnt exist you wouldnt know how to wipe your own ass would you reno?

[Leverage]

the only places that have people in need of medical attention and don't get it are ones in the socialist utopias that you cherish.

take venezuala for example, a third of the country live in complete filth. they either dont have running water or if they do they can't drink it, that is unless they want to get hepatitis. their children grow up starving and malnuturished. but hey, at least they have free health care.

alternatives? i guess if government didnt exist you wouldnt know how to wipe your own ass would you reno?

This isn't Venezuela. It's America.

[reno cool]

the only places that have people in need of medical attention and don't get it are ones in the socialist utopias that you cherish.

take venezuala for example, a third of the country live in complete filth. they either dont have running water or if they do they can't drink it, that is unless they want to get hepatitis. their children grow up starving and malnuturished. but hey, at least they have free health care.

alternatives? i guess if government didnt exist you wouldnt know how to wipe your own ass would you reno?

absolute silliness. It's too much free medicine that's responsible for whatever problems exist in Venezuela.
Your only argument is: deny people medicine. And when rational people ask why? You can blame them and list whatever shortcomings you feel make them unworthy.
We get it. We just don't want it.

[reno cool]

and do compare Venezuela to other Latin American countries who have been "influenced" by US interests for centuries. You'll find they do ok.

[bettilimbroke999]

Lost, andy, dwight there is just one problem for you guys that argue nonstop about why 50 million Americans should be denied basic needs since they are "too stupid" to get a high paying job and that's that the Democrats control both houses of Congress AND the White House, they dont need your votes anymore, your own party voted the other way bc of what a terrible job the Bush Administration did.

Maybe next time that Republicans get power try not sinking the economy, skyrocketing unemployment, spending trillions a year bailing out Wall St CEOs and starting pointless wars while trying to shutdown any program which allows the poorest Americans access to basic needs. Maybe instead of devoting all your time to denying Americans access to medical care and shutting down Internet gambling you should actually try to make the country better, if ya did someone other than the neocons would vote Republican.