Is health care a right or a luxury?

[BestPlay2day]

Hospitals here do turn people away for that. You don't go to an emergency room for a cold. That's what family doctors and clinics are for.

The problem is most clinics ask for a payment up front before they see you if you don't have your health insurance card with you. Seen a few of these welfare moms go to children's hospital and abuse the system when we had to take our kid there before.

[losturmarbles]

It is a HUMAN RIGHTS issue.

You do not need motherfukking Abe Lincoln to have written something down on a piece of paper 300 years ago for it to be considered a right.

so what about the human youre getting this health care from? what about their rights? you have a right to their labor? their skill? their life?

[bettilimbroke999]

This thread's got me wondering what would happen if we totally cut ppl off from govt support

I mean we keep public education but all forms of welfare are removed like housing, food, health care etc., I just wonder what would happen

Would the poor revolt, would they all become criminals, would they work hard and change their disastrous habits?

[losturmarbles]

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but you haven't addressed my claim that everyone cant be rich in a capitalistic system.

Capitalism serves a purpose and I'm not opposed to capitalism in moderation, but unrestricted capitalism merely allows those with the most money to basically run over those that have little.

If you were rich, would you work at McDonalds? The system would fail if everyone became wealthy, and it isn't even possible for everyone to become rich.

Like saying everyone makes money on the market or in sports betting.

it's a free market. if more people educate themselves and excel beyond working at mickey d's, then that's good for those that don't. supply and demand. mickey d's will be willing to pay more money, and not because the government tells them too, but because of a much greater force, the free market.

but youre making a huge assumption that people will not be lazy. and not everyone wants to be monetarily rich. but this is a global market. there is always going to be tyrants and pseudo presidents that suppress the free market with their social programs, and there will always be an out (hopefully). coming to america has been that out for a lot of people in the world. but that door is closing fast.

[losturmarbles]

This thread's got me wondering what would happen if we totally cut ppl off from govt support

I mean we keep public education but all forms of welfare are removed like housing, food, health care etc., I just wonder what would happen

public education is worthless. that should be the first to go.

[bettilimbroke999]

public education is worthless. that should be the first to go.

Having a literate and educated public is worthless

[betplom]

it's a free market. if more people educate themselves and excel beyond working at mickey d's, then that's good for those that don't. supply and demand. mickey d's will be willing to pay more money, and not because the government tells them too, but because of a much greater force, the free market.

but youre making a huge assumption that people will not be lazy. and not everyone wants to be monetarily rich. but this is a global market. there is always going to be tyrants and pseudo presidents that suppress the free market with their social programs, and there will always be an out (hopefully). coming to america has been that out for a lot of people in the world. but that door is closing fast.

Assuming 100% of the population has the will and the ability to complete university and become doctors, scientists etc and do so, who will then fix your car or collect your garbage?

Like I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with capitalism per se when balanced, unrestricted capitalism causes problems, no one ideology is perfect and no one ideology works well alone, personally speaking i believe a mix of capitalism and socialism works best.

I stick by my claim that too many Americans are so blinded by certain beliefs that they are not capable of considering different ideas with an open mind.

A good example of the USA being stuck in their ways is the imperial system they still use for measurement, the rest of the world has adopted the superior metric system and has for years, for whatever reason the United States hasn't advanced along with the rest of the world.

[Backslider]

If I had to guess, I would say losturmarbles is about 15 years old? Am I close? Only someone that young would have so little life experience to think everything is so black and white.

If you're poor, you're lazy. If you don't have insurance, you're poor and lazy.

I've worked for enough companies for enough years to see plenty of people get laid off through no fault of their own. When that happens, and you get sick, you're f-ed. How does that make you lazy? Even if you go out and get another job, if you're sick in the meantime they'll probably deny you coverage. If they give you coverage, they'll find a way not pay later on.


There is no reason why a person's life or a family should be ruined because they got sick. But it happens all the time in this country.

[capitalist pig]

A good example of the USA being stuck in their ways is the imperial system they still use for measurement, the rest of the world has adopted the superior metric system and has for years, for whatever reason the United States hasn't advanced along with the rest of the world.

I cant answer for the last 30 years, but when I was in HS back in the 70s they tried to teach us the metric system. The problem was, that none of our teachers knew it well enough to teach the students , so in my school system (Dallas,TX) they just said the Hell with it.

later

[betplom]

I cant answer for the last 30 years, but when I was in HS back in the 70s they tried to teach us the metric system. The problem was, that none of our teachers knew it well enough to teach the students , so in my school system (Dallas,TX) they just said the Hell with it.

later

Inexcusable on the teachers part, obviously teachers aren't exempt from being lazy.

The entire metric system is divisible by 10 which makes it simple and easy.

[Sam Odom]

You do not need motherfukking Abe Lincoln to have written something down on a piece of paper 300 years ago for it to be considered a right.

Canadian Public School Educated I Presume.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN 1861-1865


Couldnt resist

[Enogsiwon]

Inexcusable on the teachers part, obviously teachers aren't exempt from being lazy.

The entire metric system is divisible by 10 which makes it simple and easy.

Another example of making excuses for the idiot children being born in this country nowadays.. If you can't read a ruler, you deserve to be poor and uninsured.. Stop with the excuses already.. If you get laid off find a new job,.. If you only have one skill set, that's your fault.. No war, Free healthcare, and Everyones should Get along.. You guys Live in a dreamworld..

Lifes a bitch, survival of the fitest.. You crybabies that are always complaining do nothing but drag the good people down..

[CashMoney]

Americans will fully decide on this topic when the media tells them what to decide. It's as simple as that. I'm saddened to be an American in this day and age.

[betplom]

Another example of making excuses for the idiot children being born in this country nowadays.. If you can't read a ruler, you deserve to be poor and uninsured.. Stop with the excuses already.. If you get laid off find a new job,.. If you only have one skill set, that's your fault.. No war, Free healthcare, and Everyones should Get along.. You guys Live in a dreamworld..

Lifes a bitch, survival of the fitest.. You crybabies that are always complaining do nothing but drag the good people down..

I live in Canada, where healthcare is not an issue, we pay taxes and we get services for our tax dollars - simple really.

Spending a little less on the military and a little more on the people might go a long way towards solving some of the issues in the United States.

The system in the United States creates situations with more extremes, yes you have far more ultra wealthy citizens per ca-pita than Canada, you also have far more desperately poor people as well. Those well off Americans will tell you all is well, those not so well off likely have a different opinion.

[bettilimbroke999]

so what about the human youre getting this health care from? what about their rights? you have a right to their labor? their skill? their life?

To be honest lost if I'm poor and I break my leg or some other medical emergency where I need a doctor's help Im not really concerned about how stressful prescribing antibiotics or operating on my fractured leg is to him. Im not gonna sit there and be like boy I should just be a cripple for the rest of my life so as not to intrude on his free time and take advantage of his labor and skills, most consider things like this to fall into a category of decent behavior in a reasonable society given the nature of his profession.

If that same doctor was drowning and I was in a position to save him would it be appropriate to walk away just bc he doesnt have the right to my labor

The education of doctors should probably be govt subsidized and obligations made to give some of their time to patients who cant afford the 500 a month extra to insure their families but nonetheless have just as many emergencies as the rich

[losturmarbles]

Assuming 100% of the population has the will and the ability to complete university and become doctors, scientists etc and do so, who will then fix your car or collect your garbage?

Like I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with capitalism per se when balanced, unrestricted capitalism causes problems, no one ideology is perfect and no one ideology works well alone, personally speaking i believe a mix of capitalism and socialism works best.

I stick by my claim that too many Americans are so blinded by certain beliefs that they are not capable of considering different ideas with an open mind.

A good example of the USA being stuck in their ways is the imperial system they still use for measurement, the rest of the world has adopted the superior metric system and has for years, for whatever reason the United States hasn't advanced along with the rest of the world.

fixing cars and collecting garbage are good jobs and can be very prosperous. there are always going to be people better suited for blue collar jobs.

what is restricted capitalism? that's a contradiction of terms. it's like being a free slave. if a free market isn't free, it's controlled. then it's only a matter of degrees of socialism. but it's no longer a free market. it's no longer capitalism.

and while you as an individual can still be successful and a country can still be prosperous in a "mix", you will have a lot more obsticals and the country will never be it's full potential.

i dont really have a problem with the imperial system, but i wouldnt be opposed to adopting the metric system. but i think it's more a stubbornness of government, and less of the people.

btw they do teach the metric system in school. elementary schools teach it, but it's not a huge deal, no more than the imperial system. around 6th grade or so, when kids start taking individual classes like math, science, language arts, etc they learn it in science and math class. in science classes, they pretty much only use the metric system all the way through high school and college.

[betplom]

One of the noticeable differences between Canada and the USA is that we seem to have far less problems to deal with than you guys.

Canadians also appear to be somewhat more aligned in our belief system than our US counterparts, their is no controversy or debate about health-care here, socialized medicine is a Canadian right and appreciated by most - it will not be changing anytime soon.

It feels like the health-care/welfare debate/fight has been going on forever in the USA - none of these things are an issue here, if you need help most Canadians don't have a problem with the govt helping out, Americans seem to be offended at the thought of helping your fellow countryman via govt assistance - it causes fighting and resentment.

America has problems we don't and will deal with it their own way, doesn't affect me so I could care less how they choose to do things.

[losturmarbles]

To be honest lost if I'm poor and I break my leg or some other medical emergency where I need a doctor's help Im not really concerned about how stressful prescribing antibiotics or operating on my fractured leg is to him. Im not gonna sit there and be like boy I should just be a cripple for the rest of my life so as not to intrude on his free time and take advantage of his labor and skills, most consider things like this to fall into a category of decent behavior in a reasonable society given the nature of his profession.

If that same doctor was drowning and I was in a position to save him would it be appropriate to walk away just bc he doesnt have the right to my labor

The education of doctors should probably be govt subsidized and obligations made to give some of their time to patients who cant afford the 500 a month extra to insure their families but nonetheless have just as many emergencies as the rich

look i never said what would be morally right or wrong. i believe in helping others. most doctors believe in helping others. but that doesnt make their services a "right". in a free market system, charities and pro bono work would be everywhere and abundant. but it would be up to the one providing the care, the one sponsoring the care, not the government. i would much rather give almost half of my wages to charity and trust them to provide care for those that need it, than i would elitist bureaucrats that will use my wages to buy votes from government leeches.

[bettilimbroke999]

I prolly wouldnt have a problem with socialized health care, when you really think about it are you going to support a doctor turning away ppl with medical emergencies bc they're not rich? We spend trillions in tax dollars on pointless wars, I guess we might as well spend trillions to help the citizens of this country

[betplom]

I prolly wouldnt have a problem with socialized health care, when you really think about it are you going to support a doctor turning away ppl with medical emergencies bc they're not rich? We spend trillions in tax dollars on pointless wars, I guess we might as well spend trillions to help the citizens of this country

There is hope for you.

Wouldn't be surprised to see your fellow countrymen attacking you for this belief.

America has alot of problems, seems all you guys do is fight with yourselves about the issues or fight with other countries that piss you off.

[losturmarbles]

I prolly wouldnt have a problem with socialized health care, when you really think about it are you going to support a doctor turning away ppl with medical emergencies bc they're not rich? We spend trillions in tax dollars on pointless wars, I guess we might as well spend trillions to help the citizens of this country

wow what a surprise! you like the government controlling you.

great rationalizing skills on the pointless wars jab also.

[bettilimbroke999]

wow what a surprise! you like the government controlling you.

great rationalizing skills on the pointless wars jab also.

How is the govt controlling me by giving me health care? I dont want the freedom to be gouged by insurance companies, they can take that freedom from me and raise my taxes a couple percent to cover it

[DwightShrute]

it comes down to one word really. GREED

If there is a will to make healthcare affordable they can do it. I am sure they can design a plan that will include every citizen. Greed/politics gets in the way and until they can collectively sit down together and truly do what is needed, nothing will get done.

No system will be perfect. Canadian Health care isn't either. Being Canadian, we are looked after pretty well re the health care. But we do have 1/10 of the US population and if you can't see that being a huge factor, I think your kidding yourselves. We also have real high taxes and user fees on almost everything imaginable. Everything you buy now, I mean everything is subject to an additional 12% tax.Who can afford to buy a house in Vancouver anymore? We are taxed and user-feed to death in Canada. Yes, we all get health care.

Don't forget that we don't have to spend billion and billions on a huge military because thankfully we have the USA right beside us.

I just spend a few days in Nicaragua, police make $150 a month, bank tellers make $125 a month but the land is plentyfull. Go grab a coconut off tree or throw a line in the ocean and eat a fish for dinner. Doubtful a superstyle health care program exists but they get by. I swam in the warm water, drank beers and rum and ate the freshest fish, lobster and shrimps (sorry Paco) and couldn't spend $40 IN A DAY.

We will never all agree. Never. Capitalism with some government is the best way to go IMO. There are few good people in government but sadly, the vast majority are greedy scumbags hiding behind their desks.

[flyingillini]

I work very hard for everything that I have. I don't think it is right that people can get the same benefits as me without working for it/paying for it.

[robmpink]

This whole idea is worthless. Lets cover every Manny, Moe, and Jack deadbeat weedsmoker from the ghetto who has no desire to get a job. No way this passes.

[flyingillini]

This whole idea is worthless. Lets cover every Manny, Moe, and Jack deadbeat weedsmoker from the ghetto who has no desire to get a job. No way this passes.

You are absolutely correct, it better not!

[fiveteamer]

People are really misinformed about a certain class of people described as "WORKING POOR".

[flyingillini]

Educate me 5er.

[paco]

i want insurance. Dentist is fvcken expensive.

[bettilimbroke999]

Obama I want free food, free housing, free insurance, free car, free gas, free money, free whores, free drugs, free jet

God bless America!

[wtf]

if america had control of its borders i think this would not be much of an issue

but with a porous border with an impoverished nation makes it a difficult question

[bettilimbroke999]

Sharp post, is anyone born in Mexico anymore? Fukin retarded if they are, if I was Mexican and knocked a chick up Id drag that whore through the desert while the USA is still stupid enough to have that citizenship by soil rule apply to illegal aliens

They can go to shithole Mexico anytime they want but they only got one shot at bein a legal citizen

[reno cool]

How well would America function if everyone were rich?

A: It probably wouldn't, who the fukk would there be to do the work if everyone has gobs of cash?

A purely capitalistic society resembles a pyramid scheme in that a relatively few number of people (at the top of the pyramid) enjoy most of the benefits of capitalism while those at the bottom toil in poverty, these same poor people are then brainwashed to believe they too can become rich if they work hard and have faith they too will be rich and can exploit those less fortunate.

Bullshit? I think not. Too many Americans are simply sheep that are easily convinced by the propaganda floating around the country.

Capitalism would grind to a halt if everyone were rich.

Capitalism needs the poor to perpetuate the system, without poor people for the lower level of the pyramid the top cannot enjoy their position at the top.

The Government didn't GIVE it.

We DEMANDED it.

numerous great posts here by betplom and 5teamer.

What makes healthcare a right?
Same thing that makes all rights such: An agreement amongst people to set a standard. Unfortunately, this simple concept is beyond the grasp of indoctrinated yahoos.

[capitalist pig]

Ive changed my position on free govt healthcare. Yes it should be provided, as long as anyone who gets any free healthcare(or any free govt service for that matter) from the govt. can and will pass a mandatory illegal substance test everytime you need healthcare. If you test negative, its all free, if you test positive you go straight to jail and serve the current sentence for whatever drug you tested positive for. At least youll still get free healthcare in prison.

Now, us Republicans are willing to compromise on free healthcare, so will the Democrats be willing to accept the compromise? Never happen, just like Obamas healthcare dream is never going to happen.

later

[losturmarbles]

numerous great posts here by betplom and 5teamer.

What makes healthcare a right?
Same thing that makes all rights such: An agreement amongst people to set a standard. Unfortunately, this simple concept is beyond the grasp of indoctrinated yahoos.

reno, you don't believe in natural rights?