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I guess ft jackson and ft benning don't qualify me . I thought I was going to die in that red clay. If you were in service after 1983 than you can thank a classmate of mine for the co's keeping their hands off you. We had 2 guys die during my class and the nco's didn't know that a lt.col step son was in my platoon. But 2 drill instructors went to Leavenworth because of this guy.Last edited by chico2663; 06-13-16, 04:48 PM.Comment -
Better fight then just get slaughtered and whimper in the corner..... Especially if you are cornered and can't get out.. Attacking is your best chance of survival in that case even as slim as that may be....
Bet your ass I go into attack mode if I can find a reasonable angle to go after...... I would have no choice, but then again I'm not that afraid to die.. Been there to many times in my life time, so many close calls so to speak.. Also I believe in an after life of sorts with what ever that entails. I'm also in my 40's and have lived a full life already.....
I would try to evade first though if possible.. I'm not gonna run at a shooter when I am not armed myself.. That's a death wish...Comment -
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica]564630287 
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Why do ppl believe that ARs are necessary to do damage and kill mass #s of ppl? It's bc the media wants them to believe it and ppl are dumb and misinformed
One of these days someone's gonna mention the Virginia Tech shooter just had 2 pistols and before this shooting was the deadliest mass shooter in US history...killing 33 (32+himself) and shooting another 17 more and the brainwashing US media's gonna have to collectively STFU!Comment -
capitalist pig WHO DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT?Comment -
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<small style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman";">Called "the darkest deed of the nineteenth century," the brutal 1857 murder of 120 men, women, and children at a place in southern Utah called Mountain Meadows remains one of the most controversial events in the history of the American West. Although only one man, John D. Lee, ever faced prosecution (for what probably stands as one of the four largest mass killings of civilians in United States history), many other Mormons ordered, planned, or participated in the massacre of wagon loads of Arkansas emigrants as they headed through southwestern Utah on their way to California. Special controversy surrounds the role in the 1857 events of one man, Brigham Young, the fiery prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who led his embattled people to the "promised land" in the valley of the Great Salt Lake. What exactly Brigham Young knew, and when he knew it, are questions that historians still debate.
The tragedy in Mountain Meadows on September 11--a date that would later come to stand for another senseless loss of life--can only be understood in the context of the colorful history of the most important American-grown religion, Mormonism. Today, Mormonism has gone mainstream and Mormons seem to be just one more strand among many in the nation's religious fabric. Mormonism, however, as it existed in the mid-nineteenth century, was an altogether different matter. Brigham Young's provocative communalist religion endorsed polygamy, supported a theocracy, and advocated the violent doctrine of "blood atonement"--the killing of persons committing certain sins as the only way of saving their otherwise damned souls. It is not surprising that practicioners of such a religion might grow suspicious of persons outside of their religious community, nor should it be surprising that non-Mormons living in, or traveling through, the very Mormon territory of Utah might feel like "strangers in a strange land."
In July 1847, seventeen years after Joseph Smith and a group of five other men founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in New York and three years after an Illinois lynch mob killed Smith, Brigham Young and his band of followers entered Salt Lake valley. When a territorial government was formed in Utah in 1850, Young, the second head of the Church of Latter-day Saints, became the territory's first governor. The principle of "separation of church and state" carried little weight in the new territory. The laws of the territory reflected the views of Young. In a speech before Congress, federal judge and outspoken Mormon critic John Cradlebaugh said, "The mind of one man permeates the whole mass of the people, and subjects to its unrelenting tyranny the souls and bodies of all. It reigns supreme in Church and State, in morals, and even in the minutest domestic and social arrangements. Brigham's house is at once tabernacle, capital, and harem; and Brigham himself is king, priest, lawgiver, and chief polygamist."
</small><small><big></big></small>Rising Tensions<small style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman";">
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Tensions between federal officials and Mormons in the new territory escalated over time. Historian Will Bagley, author of Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows, wrote that "the struggle often resembled comic opera more than a political battle." According to Bagley, "As both sides talked past each other, hostile rhetoric fanned the Mormons resentment of government. From their standpoint, they had patiently endured two decades of bitter persecution with great forbearance, but their patience with their long list of enemies had worn thin." As early as 1851, Governor Young said in a speech, "Any President of the United States who lifts his finger against these people shall die an untimely death and go to hell!"
When drought and grasshopper infestations produced desperate economic conditions in Utah (or Deseret, as the Mormons called the territory), Brigham Young concluded that the problem stemmed from a loss of righteousness among his people. In early 1856, Young launched the Reformation, a campaign to arouse religious consciousness. Mormon leadership urged spiritual repentance and rebaptisms. All those unwilling to make the necessary religious sacrifices were invited to leave Utah. The most troubling aspect of the Reformation was its obsession with the doctrine of blood atonement. Young asked his followers to kill Mormons who committed unpardonable sins: "If our neighbor...wishes salvation, and it is necessary to spill his blood upon the ground in order that he be saved, spill it." While Young aimed his fiery words about blood atonement at Mormons who committed serious sins, his speeches undoubtedly contributed to a growing culture of violence. The Reformation might have had a spiritual goal, but it fueled a fanaticism that led to the tragedy at Mountain Meadows.
In 1857, conflict between the Mormon leadership and Utah and the federal government reached the boiling point. Worried that a federal army might be sent to the territory, the Mormon-dominated Utah legislature enacted legislation in January reactivating the territorial militia, called the Nauvoo Legion. Federal officials in Utah complained of harassment and destruction of records by Mormon citizens. On April 15, 1857, a federal judge, the territorial surveyor and the U. S. marshal (all the federal officials in Utah except one Indian agent) fled the state, convinced that they were about to be killed. President James Buchanan responding by ordering an army to Utah to quell what he called a "rebellion."
Buchanan's order alarmed Utah's Mormon population, who saw it as nothing less than a threat to the existence of their religion. Past persecution experienced by Mormons in the Midwest made the danger seem especially real. Church officials referred to Federal officials and the U. S. army as "enemies," and Utahans readied for what many saw as a life-or-death struggle for their faith. Young embarked on an effort to rally Indian support for the Mormon cause--support that he saw as potentially critical in the battle to come.
Meanwhile, several extended families left Arkansas by wagon train on what they planned to be their long emigration to southern California. Unfortunately for the groups of families (which came to be called "the Fancher party"), a revered Mormon apostle </small><small>(and the great-great grandfather of 2008 Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney)</small><small style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman";">, Parley Pratt, was murdered in western Arkansas within two weeks of their departure. News of the Pratt murder, committed by a non-Mormon angered over Pratt's taking of his wife, soon reached Utah, and greatly inflamed local hostility toward non-Mormons. When further word reached Salt Lake in July 1857 that the army was headed its way, Utah became a place hungry for retribution.
On September 1, 1857, Brigham Young met in Salt Lake City with southern Indian chiefs. According to an entry in the diary of Dimick Huntington, Young's brother-in-law who was present at the meeting, Young encouraged the Indians to seize "all the cattle" of emigrants that traveled on the "south route" (through southern Utah) to California. (The journal entry actually says Young "gave" the Paiute chiefs the emigrant's cattle.) The meeting increased the likelihood of a violent encounter between Indians and emigrants, something Young apparently saw as a useful shot across the federal government's bow. In fact, Young had been working on such a plan even before his September 1 meeting, having sent apostle George A. Smith south with instructions to let the Indians know that Young considered emigration through Utah a threat to the well-being of both Mormon and Indian residents of the territory.
The same day that Young talked with Paiute leaders, the Fancher Party, consisting of about 140 Arkansans, camped about seventy miles north of Mountain Meadows. On the Fancher party's way through Utah, rumors spread that some of its members participated in the killing of Parley Pratt and the lynching of Joseph Smith in Illinois. John D. Lee, a Mormon living in southern Utah, believed the stories to be true: "This lot of people had men amongst them that were supposed to have held kill the prophets in the Carthage jail." (Later, in attempts to rationalize the slaughter, Utahans would accuse the Fancher party of committing all sorts of manufactured sins and depredations: "tormenting women," swearing, insulting the Mormon Church, brandishing pistols, and even poisoning cattle. There is virtually no evidence to support any of these charges. Undoubtedly, the Fancher party understood it was not welcome in the territory and simply wanted to get out as fast as possible.)
On September 4, Cedar City was gripped in the white heat of fanaticism as the Fancher train rolled into the southwestern Utah town. The wagon train's imminent arrival had prompted Isaac Haight, second in command of the Iron Brigade (the Nauvoo Legion's force in southern Utah) and President of the Cedar City Stake of Zion (the highest Mormon ecclesiastical official in southern Utah), to call a meeting to discuss the course of action to be taken against the emigrants. According to Lee's later account of the meeting, Haight said it was "the will of all in authority" to arm Paiute and incite them to "kill part or all" of the party. Haight sent Indian interpreter Nelphi Johnson off on a mission to "stir up" the Indians so that they might "give the emigrants a good hush." Haight shed no tears for the party's fate, telling Lee, "There will not be one drop of innocent blood shed, if every one in the damned pack are killed, for they are the worse lot of outlaws and ruffians that I ever saw in my life."
Sunday, September 6 was a day for dramatic speech making at Mormon services around Utah. In Salt Lake City, Brigham Young took the occasion to declare that the Almighty recognized Utah as a free and independent people, no longer bound by the laws of the United States. In Cedar City, meanwhile, Isaac Haight told those gathered at the morning service that "I am prepared to fee to the Gentiles the same bread they fed to us. God being my helper, I will give the last ounce of strength and if need be my last drop of blood in defense of Zion." That Sunday evening, the Fancher party crossed over the rim of the Great Basin and encamped at a place called Mountain Meadows.
The next morning's calm at the meadows was interrupted by gunfire. A child who survived the attack wrote later, "Our party was just sitting down to a breakfast of quail and cottontail rabbits when a shot rang out from a nearby gully, and one of the children toppled over, hit by a bullet." The shots came from forty to fifty Indians and Mormons disguised as Indians. The well-armed emigrants returned fire. Soon the gun battle turned into a siege. Meanwhile, in Cedar City, Isaac Haight, responding to pressure from Mormons lacking enthusiasm for the attack on the emigrants, sent a courier on a 600-mile trip (that will take six days, round trip) to inform Brigham Young of the situation at Mountain Meadows and ask his guidance about what to do next.
Over the next three days, Mormon reinforcements, totally about 100 men, continued to arrive at the battle scene. Men on horseback carried messages back to Haight, and his immediate superior in the Nauvoo Legion and head of southern Utah forces, William Dame. Dame reportedly reiterated his determination to not less the emigrants pass: "My orders are that all the emigrants [except the youngest children] must be done away with." On September 10, the messenger send to Salt Lake City arrived and handed Haight's letter to Young. Young, according to published Mormon reports, sent the messenger back to Haight with a note telling him to let the Indians "do as they please," but--as for Mormon participation in the siege--if the emigrants will leave Utah, "let them go in peace." The message will be too late.
</small><small><big></big></small><small style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman";"></small><small></small>The Massacre<small style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman";">
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By September 11, Legion officers had devised a plan for ending the stand-off. Most of the Paiutes had left after growing weary of the siege and could play no role in the bloody conclusion. The plan was devious, but effective. Major John Higbee, in command of the forces at Mountain Meadows, persuaded John Lee and William Bateman to act as decoys to draw the emigrants out from the protection of their wagons. Lee and Bateman, carrying a white flag, marched across the field to the emigrants' camp. The desperate emigrants agreed to the terms promised by Lee: They would give up their arms, wagons, and cattle, in return for promise that they would not be harmed as they embarked on a 35-mile hike back to Cedar City. Samuel McMurdy, a member of the Nauvoo Legion, took the reigns of one of the wagons into which were loaded some of the youngest children. A woman and a few seriously injured emigrant men were loaded into a second wagon. John Lee positioned himself between the two wagons as they pulled out. Following the two wagons, the women and the older children of the Fancher party walked behind. After the wagons had moved on, Higbee ordered the emigrant men to begin walking in single file. An armed Mormon "guard" escorted each emigrant man.
When the escorted men had fallen a quarter mile or so behind the women and children, who had just crested a small hill, Higbee yelled, "Halt! Do your duty!" Each of the Mormon men shot and killed the emigrant at his side. Meanwhile, on the other side of the hill, Nelphi Johnson shouted the order to begin the slaughter of the women and older children. Men rushed at the defenseless emigrants from both sides, and the killing went on amidst "hideous, demon-like yells." Nancy Huff, four years old at the time of the massacre, later remembered the horror: "I saw my mother shot in the forehead and fall dead. The women and children screamed and clung together. Some of the young women begged the assassins after they run out on us not to kill them, but they had no mercy on them, clubbing their guns and beating out their brains." It was over in just a few minutes. 120 members of the Fancher party were dead. The youngest children, seventeen or eighteen in all, were gathered up, to later be placed in Mormon homes. None of the survivors was over seven years old.
The next day, Colonel Dame and Lt. Colonel Haight visited the site of the massacre with John Lee and Philip Klingensmith. Lee, in his confession, described the field on that day: "The bodies of men, women and children had been stripped entirely naked, making the scene one of the most loathsome and ghastly that can be imagined." Dame appeared shocked by what he found. "I did not think there were so many of them [women and children], or I would not have had anything to do with, Dame reportedly said. Haight, angered by Dame's remark, expressed concern that Dame might try to blame him for an action that Dame had ordered. The men agreed on one thing, however: Mormon participation in the massacre had to be kept secret. Within twenty-fours hours, Haight had another reason for concern. Brigham Young's reply to his inquiry arrived in Cedar City. "Too late, too late," Haight said as he read Young's letter and began to cry.
Brigham Young declared martial law on September 15. In his proclamation (of dubious legality), Young prohibited "all armed forces...from entering this territory" and ordered the Nauvoo Legion to prepare for an expected invasion by federal forces. The proclamation also prohibited any person from passing through the territory without a permit from "the proper officer."
Shortly after his proclamation, Young learned of the tragic events at Mountain Meadows, first from Indian chiefs and then from John Lee, who traveled to Salt Lake City to provide a detailed account of the massacre. According to Lee, Young at first expressed dismay about the Mormon participation in the massacre. He seemed especially concerned that news of the massacre would damage the national reputation of the Latter-day Saints The next day, however, Young said he was at peace with what happened. According to Lee, Young said, "I asked the Lord if it was all right for the deed to be done, to take away the vision of the deed from my mind, and the Lord did so, and I feel first rate. It is all right. The only fear I have is from traitors."
</small><small><big></big></small>Response to the Massacre<small style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Times New Roman";">The first published reports of the massacre begin appearing in California newspapers in October. One came from John Aiken, who with mail carrier John Hunt, passed by Mountain Meadows in late September with a pass signed by William Dame. Aiken wrote, "I saw about twenty wolves feasting upon the carcasses of the murdered. Mr. Hunt shot at a wolf, and they ran a few yards and halted. I noticed that the women and children were more generally eaten by the wild beasts than we</small>
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This is the most americans killing americans. The president had to call out the armyComment -
Mina Justice was sound asleep when she received the first text from her son, Eddie Justice, who was in the gay nightclub when a gunman opened fire and slaughtered 50 and wounded more than 50 others. Here is the conversation she had over text message with her 30-year-old son.
"Mommy I love you," the first message said. It was 2:06 a.m.
"In club they shooting."
Mina Justice tried calling her 30-year-old son. No answer.
Alarmed and half awake, she tapped out a response.
"U ok"
At 2:07 a.m., he wrote: "Trapp in bathroom."
Justice asked what club, and he responded: "Pulse. Downtown. Call police."
Then at 2:08: "I'm gonna die."
Now wide awake, Justice dialed 911.
She sent a flurry of texts over the next several minutes.
"I'm calling them now.
U still in there
Answer our damn phone
Call them
Call me."
The 911 dispatcher wanted her to stay on the line. She wondered what kind of danger her son was in. He was normally a homebody who liked to eat and work out. He liked to make everyone laugh. He worked as an accountant and lived in a condo in downtown Orlando.
"Lives in a sky house, like the Jeffersons," she would say. "He lives rich."
She knew he was gay and at a club -- and all the complications that might entail. Fear surged through her as she waited for his next message.
At 2:39 a.m., he responded:
"Call them mommy
Now."
He wrote that he was in the bathroom.
"He's coming
I'm gonna die."
Justice asked her son if anyone was hurt and which bathroom he was in.
"Lots. Yes," he responded at 2:42 a.m.
When he didn't text back, she sent several more messages. Was he with police?
"Text me please," she wrote.
"No," he wrote four minutes later. "Still here in bathroom. He has us. They need to come get us."
At 2:49 a.m., she told him the police were there and to let her know when he saw them.
"Hurry," he wrote. "He's in the bathroom with us."
She asked, "Is the man in the bathroom wit u?"
At 2:50 a.m.: "He's a terror."
Then, a final text from her son a minute later: "Yes."
More than 15 hours after that text, Justice still hasn't heard from her son. She and a dozen family and friends are at a hotel that has become a staging area for relatives awaiting news. Any news.
"His name has not come up yet and that's scary. It's just ..." she paused and patted hear heart. "It's just, I got this feeling. I got a bad feeling."Comment -
Why would anyone consider banning ARs?
Personally I think ppl should LOVE ARs...they are no more effective at murdering mass #s of ppl than semiautomatic pistols at close ranges...Virginia Tech proved that. BUT if you're at a gay club and you see a guy lugging in an AR you might want to GTFO...ARs have become the sirens of mass shooters...for all the AR owning ppl I know I have never seen one carry one around for personal defense or into a club or school or anything like that...if you see that it's like someone hitting the fire alarm...err on the side of caution and leave immediately.
So whatcha goin to the gay club for? Oh just to have fun dancing with the other gays AND show em my AR-15...NO...no one has ever said that EVER...this guy was announcing himself as a significant problem the moment he came lugging his AR-15 through the parking lot. Had he just been armed with pistols concealed in his waistband it's hard to tell him apart from anyone else...but that AR-15...that should raise some big red flags....that is a bit excessive for a night of drinking and dancing.Comment -
if these motherfukkers are willing to aim their weaponry in the "right" direction...
say, like MAYBE only at men that suck other mens cokks...
I say fukk it.
Give that man a job...
and bullets!!
oh, he is dead?
ouch!
he has cousins.
it`s cool.Comment -
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Ohhhh so you're an idiot okay....Cho shot and killed 2 ppl but no one knew any problem was going on or that Cho was responsible (hence over 2 hours later VT classes going on as normal instead of the entire police force being there)...he went around doing chores penetrating around for a couple hours like mailing tapes and shit at the post office and then went to VTech to massacre some ppl...the massacre at VTech lasted only 10-12 minutes before Cho blew his brains out...in that 10-12 minutes he executed 31 ppl (30 + himself) and shot another 17...the Orlando shooter was in an active massacre for 3 straight hours...at Cho's kill rate of 3/minute he'd have killed 540 ppl with his pistols vs the 50 the Orlando shooter killed with his ARComment -
look i seen a glock with a 100 round mag. only difference in pistol and rifle is accuracy from a distance. He could of done just as much damage with a pistol in confined quarters. Why officers in military carry pistols. Most will not be involved in shooting unless it is close range e.g. the enemy over runs the perimeter.Last edited by chico2663; 06-13-16, 06:18 PM.Comment -
Heard interview with one of the survivors from his hospital bed earlier. He said as he was on ground shot in the back a cop crawled to him while gun fight was going on and grabbed him and pulled him out after talking to him that it was gonna be okay. All the time spent railing on police for all being racist killers ....then when needed they still do the job. Good to hear and I bet it's just eating away at the SJWs and BLM movement that a white cop is being made a hero for saving a gay Latino in middle of a gun fight.Comment -
[IMG]“Can I get 2 boxes of Sudafed?”<script async="" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/IMG]
“Sorry, by law you can only buy one at a time.”
“Okay then just the one box of Sudafed and these 7 guns.”
— Bryan Donaldson (@TheNardvark) October 9, 2015Comment -
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Politics on SBR.
You will not prove your point to someone else.
Everyone is set in stone.
No point in arguing.
You aren't changing anyone's mind.
You are basically talking to yourself, and reinforcing your own idea.
The one thing we can all agree on is that this is a sad situation.Comment -
Mateen was probably just another gay guy at the bar
who they pinned due to his old FBI case. the real killers are still at large.
Last night I watched a father of a victim in the hospital say live on MSNBC
that his son said he saw Mateen at the bar drinking alcohol at Last Call
which was the time the shooting began. Brian Williams even pressed this
with the former Orlando Police Chief, which is archived on msnbc.com
now it is coming out that Mateen had gay friends, one was a drag queen
and he also had been to the club before and used a gay dating app.
those selfies were to hook up with men.
Meanwhile the reports of multiple shooters and closed doors while ppl
tried to escape, so much is strange about this.Comment -
The military issues select-fire automatic rifles...illegal to own (up to 10 years in prison) not semi-automatic rifles...rifles are by design much more effective shooting targets at longer distances...in close-quarters they are no more effective save for the general increase in capacity of their magazines (more bullets) but this is easily augmented by higher-capacity magazines which are unseemly for carrying for personal protection but would obviously be useful to someone looking to shoot as many ppl as possible before reloading...many special ops forces are issued pistols for close combat.Comment -
Because they allow punk ass bitches to mow down dozens of people in a few minutes.
Do you have any limits to what weapons people should be able to legally own? Do you have any limits on what companies can manufacture and sell to the buying public. If you don't see a problem with people owning high powered assault rifles, what do you say about someone owning a bazooka, hand grenades, or anti-aircraft guns? WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?Comment -
There are certain hand pistols that can handle that bullet. There is a desert eagle that can handle a 50 cal bullet. Yes that is the same as a 50 cal machine gun but not sure of length of it. You can ask someone in the know but i think if you get caught with that pistol it is 5 years. At least what iIve been told by a guy who had one.Comment
