Worse "big name" coach in March: Self or Williams

[BigDofBA]

I think Boeheim is the most overrated big time coach but I s think he is a solid coach.

How are Self and Williams overrated? If anything they're underrated because everyone rips them.

You admitted Self and Williams have great resumes but your saying they aren't big time coaches?

Over the past decade, Self and Williams have won 1/3 of the national championships. What has Brad Stevens won? The Horizon league?

[No coincidences]

I think Boeheim is the most overrated big time coach but I s think he is a solid coach.

How are Self and Williams overrated? If anything they're underrated because everyone rips them.

You admitted Self and Williams have great resumes but your saying they aren't big time coaches?

Over the past decade, Self and Williams have won 1/3 of the national championships. What has Brad Stevens won? The Horizon league?

This thread is and has always been about March and the NCAA Tournament.

[likedatbet]

Guys like Williams, Self and Boeheim are regularly ridiculed for getting out-coached in clutch situations.

Again, that's the price you pay for being an elite program. I don't blame people for being disappointed.

Ridiculed by self-loathing nobodies like yourself. Sure, all the time.

[RL75]

Great coaching performance by Billy Donovan. 12 point lead with 6 minutes left and they got outscored 20-3 to end the game. All the while Louisville had big time foul trouble.

Massive, massive choke by Florida. Reminiscent of the Gonzaga collapse against UCLA, the game where Adam Morrison cried.

This guy always has every line figured out, you'd think he'd be a retired billionaire by now. Like the lock that Louisville was done because of the 2h line.

[RL75]

Two years in a row where Florida has had a double digit 2h lead and lost to go to F4.

[swordsandtequila]

The better question is, who do you think is the "best big game" coach. You've slammed the coaches who own most of the national titles, so I'm curious which of the non-winners is the best in your eyes. And quit naming Stevens, Donovan, etc. Small sample size.

As a UNC fan, sometimes Roy drives me crazy. But I don't think he had anything to do with Harrison Barnes shitting the bed last night, or his starting back court (including the best point in the country, regardless of what anyone here thinks) sitting injured on the bench. Coaches coach, players play.

[No coincidences]

Great coaching performance by Billy Donovan. 12 point lead with 6 minutes left and they got outscored 20-3 to end the game. All the while Louisville had big time foul trouble.

Massive, massive choke by Florida. Reminiscent of the Gonzaga collapse against UCLA, the game where Adam Morrison cried.

This guy always has every line figured out, you'd think he'd be a retired billionaire by now. Like the lock that Louisville was done because of the 2h line.

Where did I say that was a "lock"? And where did I say I have every line figured out? If you read those things into my posts, that's your problem -- not mine.

[BigDofBA]

This thread is and has always been about March and the NCAA Tournament.

When Kansas is rebuilding, Self has them in the Elite 8 and Sweet 16.

When Butler is rebuilding, Stevens finishes 4th in the Horizon and misses the tournament.

So Self and Williams are getting ridiculed because they lose in the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 but it's ok that Stevens completely misses the tournament? I don't understand that logic.

Self and Williams are so successful that it's now considered sucking when they don't go further than the Sweet 16 or Elite 8? LOL. That in itself says something.

A lot of these guys that you people talk up aren't even playing right now while Self and Williams are, yet Self and Williams catch heat. That's hilarious.

Last time I checked, only 1 out of 68 coaches wins the championships, so basically every coach sucks except the guy that hoists the trophy?

Even so Self and Williams have won three out of the last 6 national championships!!!!!! That argument wins!

[BigDofBA]

Donavan isn't a big time coach. He just lost in a one-and-done situation with a double digit lead. He sucks.

[No coincidences]

The better question is, who do you think is the "best big game" coach. You've slammed the coaches who own most of the national titles, so I'm curious which of the non-winners is the best in your eyes. And quit naming Stevens, Donovan, etc. Small sample size.

As a UNC fan, sometimes Roy drives me crazy. But I don't think he had anything to do with Harrison Barnes shitting the bed last night, or his starting back court (including the best point in the country, regardless of what anyone here thinks) sitting injured on the bench. Coaches coach, players play.

It's not Roy's fault that Barnes has gone comatose or that Marshall got hurt.

It is Roy's fault that they didn't make the proper adjustments and barely escaped Ohio University (probably shouldn't have even won in the first place). That's where Roy could truly prove his stripes as a top-level NCAA Tournament X's and O's coach, and that's why Carolina almost got beat.

[likedatbet]

The better question is, who do you think is the "best big game" coach. You've slammed the coaches who own most of the national titles, so I'm curious which of the non-winners is the best in your eyes. And quit naming Stevens, Donovan, etc. Small sample size.

As a UNC fan, sometimes Roy drives me crazy. But I don't think he had anything to do with Harrison Barnes shitting the bed last night, or his starting back court (including the best point in the country, regardless of what anyone here thinks) sitting injured on the bench. Coaches coach, players play.

Correctomundo! The coaches can't play for the players. If these were best of 3 or 5 game series, than coaching and adjustments become huge.

[No coincidences]

When Kansas is rebuilding, Self has them in the Elite 8 and Sweet 16.

When Butler is rebuilding, Stevens finishes 4th in the Horizon and misses the tournament.

So Self and Williams are getting ridiculed because they lose in the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 but it's ok that Stevens completely misses the tournament? I don't understand that logic.

Self and Williams are so successful that it's now considered sucking when they don't go further than the Sweet 16 or Elite 8? LOL. That in itself says something.

A lot of these guys that you people talk up aren't even playing right now while Self and Williams are, yet Self and Williams catch heat. That's hilarious.

Last time I checked, only 1 out of 68 coaches wins the championships, so basically every coach sucks except the guy that hoists the trophy?

Even so Self and Williams have won three out of the last 6 national championships!!!!!! That argument wins!

You think Kansas and Butler are on comparable levels in terms of expectations?

Kansas may be "rebuilding," but they still have an NBA lottery pick and two more second-rounders in their starting lineup. Again, it's all relative.

[No coincidences]

Correctomundo! The coaches can't play for the players. If these were best of 3 or 5 game series, than coaching and adjustments become huge.

So coaching and adjustments aren't huge in the NCAA Tournament? Wow.

[likedatbet]

You think Kansas and Butler are on comparable levels in terms of expectations?

Kansas may be "rebuilding," but they still have an NBA lottery pick and two more second-rounders in their starting lineup. Again, it's all relative.

I'll give you this, you will not quit an argument even if you are dead wrong. Look in to politics. Just make sure you don't offend the wrong group and get mugged.

[BigDofBA]

Basically this thread is saying that two coaches that have been uber successful and won 3 out of the past 6 championships are bad big game coaches. Got it.

[likedatbet]

So coaching and adjustments aren't huge in the NCAA Tournament? Wow.

In a one-game take it all, anyone can go hot or turn the ball over. STFU already.

[RL75]

Where did I say that was a "lock"? And where did I say I have every line figured out? If you read those things into my posts, that's your problem -- not mine.

Oh I don't know...can't believe I misread this one.

Louisville only -1.

This game's over.

[No coincidences]

Basically this thread is saying that two coaches that have been uber successful and won 3 out of the past 6 championships are bad big game coaches. Got it.

You know basketball BigD -- when you watch Kansas scrape by Purdue and NC State or North Carolina almost get beat by Ohio, you actually walk away impressed by Self and Williams as in-game NCAA Tournament coaches? Seriously?

[likedatbet]

This is all I have to know about you.

And this is all I need to know about you:
Join Date: 01-18-10
Posts: 32,975 <---- LOL is this a joke??

[No coincidences]

Oh I don't know...can't believe I misread this one.

Did I say it was a lock? That was my opinion; never guaranteed anything.

[swordsandtequila]

It's not Roy's fault that Barnes has gone comatose or that Marshall got hurt.

It is Roy's fault that they didn't make the proper adjustments and barely escaped Ohio University (probably shouldn't have even won in the first place). That's where Roy could truly prove his stripes as a top-level NCAA Tournament X's and O's coach, and that's why Carolina almost got beat.

Fail. Top two point guards on bench (with Strickland being their best perimeter defender). College BB is guard driven. Hard to adjust when you don't have the horses. Soon as Marshall went down, I knew they were done. Doesn't matter when. As aggravating as Roy can be, there's nothing he can do. Some players are not replaceable. It is what it is.

Still curious who you think are the best big game coaches? Which is kind of a catch-22, as to be a "big game" coach, you have to get to a "big game".

For some perspective, as a Heel fan I grew up hating Indiana, among others. Couldn't stand Knight, but couldn't dispute he was a great coach. 3 national champs. Last title 1987. The next 13 seasons, his last with Indiana, he went to ONE final four, ONE elite 8. Lost in the first round 6 times, second round twice. And forget about his stint at Texas Tech. Did he forget how to coach? Did he just suck all of the sudden? More to my original point, players play the game. You got them or you don't. The game is bigger now than it was 30 years ago, many more talented players. The argument that a select few get all the good players doesn't hold water. It's a lot harder to win a title now than ever before, much less stay a top level program year in and year out. Sure it's disappointing when your team loses when you think it should win, but I'm okay knowing my team has a legitimate chance at a title most years. Anything else is unrealistic. It's what makes the tournament great.

[swordsandtequila]

As a side note, what do you think the line (and result) would have been if Marshall was healthy? Just sayin'.

[BigDofBA]

You know basketball BigD -- when you watch Kansas scrape by Purdue and NC State or North Carolina almost get beat by Ohio, you actually walk away impressed by Self and Williams as in-game NCAA Tournament coaches? Seriously?

I wouldn't go that far.

Quite honestly, I don't think Kansas is that much more talented than those teams this year. I was actually going to take NC State until I saw Lang and Brock were on them.

I'm not surprised UNC struggled either. They had a key injury and Ohio is pretty good.

I do know this, while you people talk about how Crean, Painter, Few, Stevens, ect. are much better coaches, they are no longer playing right now and KU and UNC are.

I think it's unfair to rip Williams and Self for losing in Elite 8s and sweet 16s when most coaches don't even get that far.

Bill self has won a conference title at 4 different schools and had Tulsa a few points away from a Final 4. I don't think you start at ORU, go to Tulsa, goto Illinois and win the Big 10, goto KU and win a national title if you're not a good coach.

As for Roy Williams, I don't think you goto 7 Final 4's and win two national titles if you're not a good coach.

Likewise, don't give me this crap about how UNC and KU always have talent. When Crean had his ONE Final 4 run, he had D. Wade. Stevens had three really good players. All of these coaches have talent when they make a run.

I'm not arguing that Self and Williams are the best X and O guys, still yet, I am just arguing that the hate they get is a bit unwarranted


I guess we will agree to disagree.

[No coincidences]

I wouldn't go that far.

Quite honestly, I don't think Kansas is that much more talented than those teams this year. I was actually going to take NC State until I saw Lang and Brock were on them.

I'm not surprised UNC struggled either. They had a key injury and Ohio is pretty good.

I do know this, while you people talk about how Crean, Painter, Few, Stevens, ect. are much better coaches, they are no longer playing right now and KU and UNC are.

I think it's unfair to rip Williams and Self for losing in Elite 8s and sweet 16s when most coaches don't even get that far.

Bill self has won a conference title at 4 different schools and had Tulsa a few points away from a Final 4. I don't think you start at ORU, go to Tulsa, goto Illinois and win the Big 10, goto KU and win a national title if you're not a good coach.

As for Roy Williams, I don't think you goto 7 Final 4's and win two national titles if you're not a good coach.

Likewise, don't give me this crap about how UNC and KU always have talent. When Crean had his ONE Final 4 run, he had D. Wade. Stevens had three really good players. All of these coaches have talent when they make a run.

I'm not arguing that Self and Williams are the best X and O guys, still yet, I am just arguing that the hate they get is a bit unwarranted


I guess we will agree to disagree.

Is it harder to recruit elite, NBA-level talent to Butler/Marquette or Kansas/North Carolina?

[swordsandtequila]

Is it harder to recruit elite, NBA-level talent to Butler/Marquette or Kansas/North Carolina?

Just for shits and grins, broke out the ol' google search. Interesting.

NBA All Stars 2012 - Kansas 1, UNC 0 (Paul Pierce, drafted 1998 for Christ's sake)
2011 - Kansas 1, UNC 0 (Pierce again)
2010 - Kansas 1, UNC 0 (Guess who)
2009 - Kansas 1, UNC 0 (Go figure)
2008 - Kansas 1, UNC 2 (PP, Antawn Jamison, Rasheed Wallace) Hey, we got two!

Could go on, and I realize all stars aren't necessarily the best players. Point is, so called elite "NBA-level talent" isn't what McDonalds or Nike say it is. More often than not big name players at big time schools get more credit/praise than deserved before it's earned, and lesser known players don't get enough. Fact is, twice as many all stars (in the listed 5 year period) came straight out of high school than Kansas and UNC combined.

Coaches (and staff) recruit, not colleges. Don't believe it, ask UCLA, Indiana, NC State, Louisville, etc. All have won multiple championships. All with "big time coaches". Without, not so much. Connecticut didn't exist before Calhoun, neither did Syracuse before Boeheim (like him or not). Duke was an afterthought before Coach K. Being critical is one thing; I bet Illinois would sell the farm to get any of them.

[Owls]

I agree withh you on both coaches, they both suck, with Roy being perhaps the worst in game coach in all of America. They are fabulous recruiters though, and that is a big part of college coaching. But even Roy can t take all the credit, so many high school players want to be the next Michael Jordan so the best recruits all want to go to UNC regardless of the coach, as if that will magically make them NBA superstars.

And in regards to Roy winning 2 championships, shoot he had so many Lottery picks on both teams, no real strong contenders those years, and you put a corpse on the sideline and he would coach those teams to rings.

[No coincidences]

I agree withh you on both coaches, they both suck, with Roy being perhaps the worst in game coach in all of America. They are fabulous recruiters though, and that is a big part of college coaching. But even Roy can t take all the credit, so many high school players want to be the next Michael Jordan so the best recruits all want to go to UNC regardless of the coach, as if that will magically make them NBA superstars.

And in regards to Roy winning 2 championships, shoot he had so many Lottery picks on both teams, no real strong contenders those years, and you put a corpse on the sideline and he would coach those teams to rings.

Thank you Owls.

Another respected poster who knows his stuff chimes in.

We get to see the two butt heads tomorrow. Can't wait for the chess match to begin.

[snoopaloop31]

Is it just me or does BigDofBA keep repeating the same argument?

[BigDofBA]

Is it just me or does BigDofBA keep repeating the same argument?

LOL. You're actually right but I keep repeating myself because no one is answering my questions.

Why is Bill Self a bad coach for losing in the second round to an #8 seed but guys like Pitino, Coach K., Boeheim, and Donovan are great coaches even though they have lost to worse teams in the first round such as Morehead St., Lehigh, Vermont, and Manhattan respectively?

Why does Brad Stevens walk on water, yet his team finished 4th in the Horizon and didn't even make the tourney? Self is playing today and Stevens is watching at home. While people rip Self and praise others, Self's team is still playing.

My point is, every good coach has had losses like these. I'm not bashing Stevens either. I think he is an excellent coach. When the Oklahoma job came open the I wanted Mark Few, Brad Stevens, or Buzz Williams.

I enjoy the discussion as I like to see other viewpoints but I still disagree with the premise that Self and Williams aren't good coaches. As I have pointed out several times, they have won at every school they have been at and have won three of the last 6 championships.

How can you say someone isn't a good big game coach when they have won 4 different conferences, 8 straight Big 12 titles, 83% of their games, and a national title?

That guy can come coach at my school any day. My team hasn't even made the tourney the past two years. I would love to be in the Elite 8.

So yes, I probably just repeated myself again but I feel it's a pretty compelling argument. It's ok to disagree. If you guys truly feel that Williams and Self aren't good coaches than so be it. IMO, their resumes say otherwise.

Saying self isn't a good coach is like saying Bobby Cox was a horrible manager. Not the greatest analogy but I think you get my point.

[No coincidences]

LOL. You're actually right but I keep repeating myself because no one is answering my questions.

Why is Bill Self a bad coach for losing in the second round to an #8 seed but guys like Pitino, Coach K., Boeheim, and Donovan are great coaches even though they have lost to worse teams in the first round such as Morehead St., Lehigh, Vermont, and Manhattan respectively?

My point is, every good coach has had losses like these.

I enjoy the discussion as I like to see other viewpoints but I still disagree with the premise that Self and Williams aren't good coaches. As I have pointed out several times, they have won every school they have been at and have won three of the last 6 championships.

How can you say someone isn't a good big game coach when they have won 4 different conferences, 8 straight Big 12 titles, 83% of their games, and a national title?

That guy can come coach at my school any day. My team hasn't even made the tourney the past two years. I would love to be in the Elite 8.

Because Self's teams at Kansas have underachieved in the NCAA Tournament at the very least four times in eight years (it could be argued more). That's more than just a pattern. You're not going to the Final Four every season and upsets do happen, but the guys you mention have also succeeded and even overachieved in the Tournament in other seasons. They've walked the walk more than once. Self hasn't.

You keep saying things like you'd love for your team to be in that position year in and year out. But your team isn't Kansas. Expectations are higher there. Do you think KU fans are satisfied with one FF appearance in eight years given all of the regular season and Big 12 Tournament success? That's what makes them elite; Self brings this on himself. I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you that they've vastly underachieved in the NCAA Tournament during his time there. He is a victim of his own success, and that's because like Roy Williams, he's a great recruiter but a shoddy in-game coach -- and the NCAA Tournament is where those adjustments and/or weaknesses are exposed the most.

[BigDofBA]

Because Self's teams at Kansas have underachieved in the NCAA Tournament at the very least four times in eight years (it could be argued more). That's more than just a pattern. You're not going to the Final Four every season and upsets do happen, but the guys you mention have also succeeded and even overachieved in the Tournament in other seasons. They've walked the walk more than once. Self hasn't.

You keep saying things like you'd love for your team to be in that position year in and year out. But your team isn't Kansas. Expectations are higher there. Do you think KU fans are satisfied with one FF appearance in eight years given all of the regular season and Big 12 Tournament success? That's what makes them elite; Self brings this on himself. I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you that they've vastly underachieved in the NCAA Tournament during his time there. He is a victim of his own success, and that's because like Roy Williams, he's a great recruiter but a shoddy in-game coach -- and the NCAA Tournament is where those adjustments and/or weaknesses are exposed the most.

I can see your points here but at the same time, Self has overachieved in the tournament.

He took a #7 seed Tulsa team the Elite 8 and had them 4 points away from the Final Four. This year, KU was in rebuilding mode and nothing was really expected of them after losing so many players. He won the Big 12 and has them in the Elite 8 again. He basically has KU at point where winning 27 games and the conference isn't enough.

You're right about expectations being higher at Kansas. Maybe self is a good coach but not by KU standards???? I don't really know.

I keep arguing for Self because the situation reminds me of Bob Stoops in a way. People constantly say he sucks and is overrated but look at what he has done in 13 years.

- National Championship
- 7 Conferences Championships
- 10, 10 Win Season
- Two Heisman Winners
- Won the Rose Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, and Orange Bowl
- 8-5 against Texas even though they constantly have better recruiting classes
- Winning Bowl Record despite people thinking he chokes in Bowls.

When we lose a game it's the end of the world around here and people want him fired. I'm totally content with winning 10 games a year and challenging for a title every other season. It could be a lot worse. I mean, if we fire Stoops, who are we going to get that is better, Nick Saban or Urban Meyer? There are like two guys I would take over Stoops yet people want him canned if he loses a game. He is a victim of his own success.

I feel like Self is similar in a way. Are there better X and O guys out there? Sure. With that said, Kansas is a big time job with a ton of pressure. Just because someone is successful at a mid-major doesn't mean they're going to be handle everything that comes along with the scrutiny of a big time program.Se

Self and Williams get a passing grade from me.

[t-wizzle]

I will say it once again. Bill Self has done a hell of a job this year with this team.

Steve Kerr raised a good point today during the telecast when he said that Self did a great job managing Robinson and Withey. No way Kansas wins that game if either of them are in foul trouble. He picked his spots for when to take put them on the bench and it worked out great.

[BiffTFinancial]

agree that Self has done an outstanding job with this year's KU team.

if anyone can defend Roy Williams after this, i'll be highly entertained:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=pf-forde_midwest_region_self_kansas_win_032512

that rube didn't even realize that KU played triangle-and-two for a significant portion of the 2H.

[HoulihansTX]

agree that Self has done an outstanding job with this year's KU team.

if anyone can defend Roy Williams after this, i'll be highly entertained:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=pf-forde_midwest_region_self_kansas_win_032512

that rube didn't even realize that KU played triangle-and-two for a significant portion of the 2H.

Calipari, Boheim, Williams, Romar, Barnes, Scott Drew, etc... have to have every advantage in order to field a winning team.

[BiffTFinancial]

Roy Williams at NC State/UNC baseball game on ESPNU. i'm no lip-reader, but pretty sure he leaned over and told wife that he thinks NC State is playing man.