Worse "big name" coach in March: Self or Williams

[No coincidences]

Both become stammering, blabbering idiots in March. Teams are always ill-prepared for the tournament.

Boeheim should probably be included on this list too. These guys, despite all of their McDonald's A-A talent, just plain shit themselves when they get far enough and have to do some actual coaching.

[Frisco]

Any other coaches w/ nat. championships you don't like? Coach K?....

[RL75]

Detroit, the team Kansas pounded in the 1st round, has more McD AA than Kansas does. Fact.

Tar Heels have made what 5 straight Elite 8s in tournaments they've been in and 6 of the last 7, including 2 titles? They missed the tourney in 2010. 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012 all elite 8.

[No coincidences]

Any other coaches w/ nat. championships you don't like? Coach K?....

Give me a break. The track record of these guys, given the talent they have year in and year out, is horrendous.

And since you bring up Coach K, he's been past the Sweet 16 once since 2004.

[No coincidences]

Detroit, the team Kansas pounded in the 1st round, has more McD AA than Kansas does. Fact.

Tar Heels have made what 5 straight Elite 8s in tournaments they've been in and 6 of the last 7, including 2 titles? They missed the tourney in 2010. 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012 all elite 8.

Who gives a shit about the Elite Eight? Do they hang banners for the Elite Eight?

[Frisco]

Give me a break. The track record of these guys, given the talent they have year in and year out, is horrendous.

And since you bring up Coach K, he's been past the Sweet 16 once since 2004.

That 1 time resulted in a title. He also has a team w/ less talent than most of the upper echelon mid majors.

[No coincidences]

If you guys want to argue that Roy Williams is a good coach, then I really don't know what else to say.

[RL75]

Well they hang banners for titles and by my count Tar Heels have 2 in the last 7 and a chance for a 3rd in 8 seasons. Kansas has 1 in the last 4 seasons and a chance for 2 in 5. Are they supposed to win it every year? In a best of 7 perhaps, but in this one and done, highly volatile style, that's just completely unrealistic.

[No coincidences]

That 1 time resulted in a title. He also has a team w/ less talent than most of the upper echelon mid majors.

Who's fault is that?

Yeah, Duke's really hurting for talent year in and year out.

[BigDofBA]

I disagree with this thread. KU was in a rebuilding year as they lost almost everyone. All Bill Self did was win the Big 12 for the 8th straight year and he has his team one win away from the elite 8.

Self and Williams have been to multiple final fours and both have national championship rings. Who is better than they are?

Kansas wasn't supposed to be good this year and now everyone is going to say they choked if they don't make the elite 8? That should say something about the job Self has done.

[No coincidences]

Well they hang banners for titles and by my count Tar Heels have 2 in the last 7 and a chance for a 3rd in 8 seasons. Kansas has 1 in the last 4 seasons and a chance for 2 in 5. Are they supposed to win it every year? In a best of 7 perhaps, but in this one and done, highly volatile style, that's just completely unrealistic.

So you think Williams and Self are good coaches?

[No coincidences]

I disagree with this thread. KU was in a rebuilding year as they lost almost everyone. All Bill Self did was win the Big 12 for the 8th straight year and he has his team one win away from the elite 8.

Self and Williams have been to multiple final fours and both have national championship rings. Who is better than they are?

Kansas wasn't supposed to be good this year and now everyone is going to say they choked if they don't make the elite 8? That should say something about the job Self has done.

Self's been to the Final Four once in his career.

[BigDofBA]

Considering Bill self has won everywhere he has been, had Tulsa a few points from the Final Four, has won his league 8 straight years, and has a national title...I would say yes.

Name some coaches that are better.

[EaglesPhan36]

I disagree with this thread. KU was in a rebuilding year as they lost almost everyone. All Bill Self did was win the Big 12 for the 8th straight year and he has his team one win away from the elite 8.

Self and Williams have been to multiple final fours and both have national championship rings. Who is better than they are?

Kansas wasn't supposed to be good this year and now everyone is going to say they choked if they don't make the elite 8? That should say something about the job Self has done.

Spot on. Self is a solid coach. Maybe his teams choke from time to time but as a Kansas fan those are player failures IMO more than coach failures. There is no comparison to me between Self and Williams and with any luck we find out that Self out coaches him in the Elite 8. If you gave Williams the KU squad from this year, I think they'd be out of the tournament already.

[Frisco]

Who's fault is that?

Yeah, Duke's really hurting for talent year in and year out.

It's the fault of actually having academic standards. (cough cough Calipari)

[No coincidences]

Considering Bill self has won everywhere he has been, had Tulsa a few points from the Final Four, has won his league 8 straight years, and has a national title...I would say yes.

Name some coaches that are better.

Donovan, Izzo and Pitino for starters.

It's hard to make this argument given how much less a lot of coaches have to work with than the guy sitting on the Kansas and North Carolina benches. For instance, I could argue Shaka Smart coached circles around Self in the Elite Eight last year -- which he did -- but most would laugh off the comparison because of what Self has in his stable every season.

[Frisco]

Considering Bill self has won everywhere he has been, had Tulsa a few points from the Final Four, has won his league 8 straight years, and has a national title...I would say yes.

Name some coaches that are better.

Shaka Smart. He's 1-0 against Self lol

[No coincidences]

Spot on. Self is a solid coach. Maybe his teams choke from time to time but as a Kansas fan those are player failures IMO more than coach failures. There is no comparison to me between Self and Williams and with any luck we find out that Self out coaches him in the Elite 8. If you gave Williams the KU squad from this year, I think they'd be out of the tournament already.

From time to time? Again, he's been to one Final Four.

[BigDofBA]

Bill Self's Resume: 266–52 (.836)

Regional Championship - Final Four: 2008
Big 12 Tournament Championships:
2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011
Big 12 Regular Season Championships:
2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Big Ten Tournament Championship: 2003
Big Ten Regular Season Championships: 2001, 2002
WAC Regular Season Championships: 1998, 1999

[texhooper]

i get what you're saying. they don't look like well-coached teams come this time most years. when they've had title years they have obviously looked better, though memphis did hand self a title on a silver platter.

i think cal will get his this year though, as much as i hate to say it. and you can also throw him into this mix. had a few really talented 1 and 2 seed memphis teams that disappointed, even though they made it a habit of getting to the elite 8 a handful of years in a row. and that one time they handed the title to kansas is included in there. they had the best run of any team i've ever seen that didn't win a title, if you recall their run that year with rose. i'm sure izzo remembers 50-20 at the half to this day.

[No coincidences]

It's the fault of actually having academic standards. (cough cough Calipari)

So why was Duke such a juggernaut before 2004?

[BigDofBA]

Donovan, Izzo and Pitino for starters.

It's hard to make this argument given how much less a lot of coaches have to work with than the guy sitting on the Kansas and North Carolina benches. For instance, I could argue Shaka Smart coached circles around Self in the Elite Eight last year -- which he did -- but most would laugh off the comparison because of what Self has in his stable every season.

OK. So we have three coaches out of over 300 that are better.

Self is a top coach. There is a reason he is coaching at Kansas.

[No coincidences]

Bill Self's Resume: 266–52 (.836)

Regional Championship - Final Four: 2008
Big 12 Tournament Championships:
2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011
Big 12 Regular Season Championships:
2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Big Ten Tournament Championship: 2003
Big Ten Regular Season Championships: 2001, 2002
WAC Regular Season Championships: 1998, 1999

With all of that regular season success, are you saying you should be satisified with one trip to the Final Four?

[No coincidences]

OK. So we have three coaches out of over 300 that are better.

Self is a top coach. There is a reason he is coaching at Kansas.

But again, it's hard to make the comparisons because this is all relative. 5* recruits fall into Self and Williams' lap -- how many other programs out there can say that is their starting point?

[RL75]

Roy Williams is in the Hall of Fame, has 7 or 8 final 4s, 4 championship games and 2 titles with a chance to add to that. What more do you want?

As for Izzo how many final 4s has he been to yet he's only been in the title game twice, and got rocked by North Carolina in 2009. He's been to 6 or 7 final 4s but only the 2 title games. In 2010 they lost to Butler in the f4.

[No coincidences]

Like Calipari, Self and Williams are excellent recruiters. How much of that is legitimate, I don't know. But you can't argue with their track record there.

They also succeed in the regular season. Again, credit them for that.

I'm talking about March, though, and these one-and-done NCAA Tournament games where coaching is more critical than ever. That's where they come up short.

[No coincidences]

Roy Williams is in the Hall of Fame, has 7 or 8 final 4s, 4 championship games and 2 titles with a chance to add to that. What more do you want?

As for Izzo how many final 4s has he been to yet he's only been in the title game twice, and got rocked by North Carolina in 2009. He's been to 6 or 7 final 4s but only the 2 title games. In 2010 they lost to Butler in the f4.

Look at the players he has year in and year out talent-wise vs. a Duke, North Carolina or Kansas, though. It's not even comparable from a talent standpoint.

Izzo has been to six Final Fours since 1999. Self's been to one in his career. What was the question again?

Williams had all week to prepare for Ohio without Marshall. UNC's gameplan was atrocious tonight. You handicap this guy at all and he'll show his true colors.

[BigDofBA]

With all of that regular season success, are you saying you should be satisified with one trip to the Final Four?

You act like Donovan is light years better and he has only been to one more Final Four. It's not exactly easy getting to the Final Four. Likwise, Donovan was really only winning big win his team was loaded with talent. Why is it a knock against Self when his team loaded?

Self has a damn good resume. What's wrong with constantly being a top 10 team and winning your league?

You bring up Shaka out coaching Self but that was only one game. Pitino got out coached by Morehead State last year. When Pitino loses to a 13 seed he is still elite but when Self loses to an 8 seed in the second roun he a bad big name coach?

Shaka is an up and coming coach but Self still has a lot better resume.

Again...

Bill Self's Resume: 266–52 (.836)

Regional Championship - Final Four: 2008
Big 12 Tournament Championships:
2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011
Big 12 Regular Season Championships:
2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Big Ten Tournament Championship: 2003
Big Ten Regular Season Championships: 2001, 2002
WAC Regular Season Championships: 1998, 1999

Self has won four different conferences with four different schools, has winning percentage 83%, and has a national title. He has won everywhere he has coached. Oral Roberts, Tulsa, Illinois, and Kansas.

Whenever it's considering choking anytime you lose a game, it just means that people are used to you winning.

[RL75]

You mentioned Donovan. What sets him apart? The 2 national title years they had 3 guys who were picked in the top 9 of the draft and 4 in the top 16. The team that lost in the championship to Michigan State was loaded with NBA guys who are still playing in the NBA (Miller, Haslem, Bonner).

[No coincidences]

You act like Donovan is light years better and he has only been to one more Final Four. It's not exactly easy getting to the Final Four. Likwise, Donovan was really only winning big win his team was loaded with talent. Why is it a knock against Self when his team loaded?

Self has a damn good resume. What's wrong with constantly being a top 10 team and winning your league?

You bring up Shaka out coaching Self but that was only one game. Pitino got out coached by Morehead State last year. When Pitino loses to a 13 seed he is still elite but when Self loses to an 8 seed in the second roun he a bad big name coach?

Shaka is an up and coming coach but Self still has a lot better resume.

Again...

Bill Self's Resume: 266–52 (.836)

Regional Championship - Final Four: 2008
Big 12 Tournament Championships:
2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011
Big 12 Regular Season Championships:
2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Big Ten Tournament Championship: 2003
Big Ten Regular Season Championships: 2001, 2002
WAC Regular Season Championships: 1998, 1999

Self has won four different conferences with four different schools, has winning percentage 83%, and has a national title. He has won everywhere he has coached. Oral Roberts, Tulsa, Illinois, and Kansas.

Whenever it's considering choking anytime you lose a game, it just means that people are used to you winning.

Donovan's been to three Final Fours, three championship games, and has two titles.

I'm not saying Self isn't a good regular season coach or a good recruiter. He is. When the spotlight's on him in a one-and-done situation, that's when the track record trails off severely.

[No coincidences]

You mentioned Donovan. What sets him apart? The 2 national title years they had 3 guys who were picked in the top 9 of the draft. The team that lost in the championship to Michigan State was loaded with NBA guys who are still playing in the NBA (Miller, Haslem, Bonner).

And? Who recruited those guys to Florida? Look at where the program was when Donovan took over (and I'm not a Donovan fan at all, mind you).

[BigDofBA]

Donovan's been to three Final Fours, three championship games, and has two titles.

I'm not saying Self isn't a good regular season coach or a good recruiter. He is. When the spotlight's on him in a one-and-done situation, that's when the track record trails off severely.

I forgot that Donovan went before he won two titles. Anyway, I'm not saying Self is the best coach in the game, I'm just saying he isn't as bad as you're making him out to be.

I'm pretty sure 67 coaches out of 68 are going to fail in this year's one-and-done situation. Likewise, I'm not sure why you think he fails in a one and done situation either.

- He has won four different conferences.
- Won seven conference championships.
- Won the national title.

I'm pretty sure all of those tournament championships were one-and-done situations. Also, like I've pointed out, he wins 83% of his games.

Pitino lost to Morehead State
Coach K. lost to Lehigh
Izzo lost with Superior talent to Butler

Do all these coaches all of the sudden suck since they lost in a one-and-done situation?

In addition, I don't think you should penalize him for getting talent. He gets talent because good players want to play for successful coaches.

[No coincidences]

I forgot that Donovan went before he won two titles. Anyway, I'm not saying Self is the best coach in the game, I'm just saying he isn't as bad as you're making him out to be.

I'm pretty sure 67 coaches out of 68 are going to fail in this year's one-and-done situation. Likewise, I'm not sure why you think he fails in a one and done situation either.

- He has won four different conferences.
- Won seven conference championships.
- Won the national title.

I'm pretty sure all of those tournament championships were one-and-done situations. Also, like I've pointed out, he wins 83% of his games.

Pitino lost to Morehead State
Coach K. lost to Lehigh
Izzo lost with Superior talent to Butler

Do all these coaches all of the sudden suck since they lost in a one-and-done situation?

In addition, I don't think you should penalize him for getting talent. He gets talent because good players want to play for successful coaches.

Bottom line if I'm an Illinois or Kansas fan: I'm wondering why this guy has only reached one Final Four given that impressive regular season track record. Say what you will about isolated seasons with Pitino, Izzo, Donovan, etc., but they've been incredibly successful in the NCAA Tournament overall. Self hasn't.

[BigDofBA]

Bottom line if I'm an Illinois or Kansas fan: I'm wondering why this guy has only reached one Final Four given that impressive regular season track record. Say what you will about isolated seasons with Pitino, Izzo, Donovan, etc., but they've been incredibly successful in the NCAA Tournament overall. Self hasn't.

Donovan lost in the first rounds to Creighton and Manhattan. Why is that OK yet Self losing in the second round or Elite 8 isn't?

You can't name 10 current coaches that have done more than self and you would be hard pressed to name five.

Illinois went downhill after Self left. They made a title games because of players he recruited.

[EaglesPhan36]

From time to time? Again, he's been to one Final Four.

You expect them to win every year? He's got a title. In his first years at KU, he might have felt some pressure when they lost early. In the last six years - he's got five trips to the Regional Semifinals at minimum. If they win tonight, four Elite 8 or better trips. That's pretty solid for any coach.