Horse Racing questions and answers

[batt33]

KInda bittersweet " straight no chaser "makes his last start in the breeders cup sprint....
Blacker with some thoughts

https://cdnb-media.myracehorse.com/b...1500113345.mp4

The final workout....
Straight No Chaser had his final breeze this morning at Santa Anita Park, covering four furlongs in :49 flat while under a very tight hold. finding company was unintentional, but assistant trainer and rider Juan Landeros did everything in his power to keep him from doing more than we wanted.

This was no doubt a bittersweet moment being the final work of Straight No Chaser's career, but there will be plenty of excitement this week as our champ gets to defend his title in the Breeders’ Cup Sprint.

[batt33]

I wanted to be sure and give a BIG shoutout to the Stronach group who has not only done their best to destroy California racing, Maryland racing, and currently working on destroying Florida racing, but have now landed in court by way of a class action suit for joining and participating in the CAW betting. Of course, they are not in court alone but let's give credit where credit is due.

The CAW betting groups are doing everything they can to chase fans away in droves with their unethical betting behavior and rebates for the chosen few. Under their savvy guidance, they are working diligently to destroy horse racing in the United States. They have information that other bettors do not have access to. I should say allegedly although there is clear evidence of that apparently.

With talk of betting after the race has started as well as manipulating the pools, I would think that everyone would want to go to the race track and spend a day getting screwed. You know, bet a 6-1 shot and when it goes into the 1st turn with the lead it flashes down to 9-5. Oh what fun.
Maybe catch an NBA game afterwards for the full body experience.

It makes me second guess ( NOT !)why I left the track after 25 years of playing the game straight while watching cheaters prosper at every turn starting in the very late 80's when the lab testing for racing was so far behind and so underfunded to try and keep up with the influx of new drugs and cocktails that appeared almost monthly.
People that rarely won, were winning bigly. Those that were regular winners, some how all slumped at the same time. AMAZING !

In all seriousness, I'm sickened by what is happening to racing. It hurts to see it. For the longest time I was proud to say that I participated in a game that was much more honest than it was ever given credit for. As of now, I cannot defend it and quite frankly, cringe when it is mentioned to me.

What a crying shame.

I couldn't agree more STR.... stronach especially the daughter has torpedoed ca racing.....

[str]

Thanks for posting this str. I just went over to Bloodhorse to get a clue - - sad to see this but I'm not shocked based on the many drops in odds halfway thru a given race. I've had a few winners this past year that were - let's say - ML 12-1, down to 10-1 as they load, and halfway thru race they take the lead and now 3-1... or 9/5 in one case. So maybe that is the reason but I'll never know. FWIW, I've never liked or trusted Frank Stronach. Strictly about the bottom-line and nothing but,, at least that is my view of him. I don't like to beat-up on the powers that be within HorseRacing because they make the sport happen but this guy is one of the few that I just can't get behind (I will refrain from my short list)for his dubious dealings since I've been aware of him.
Last comment = I am sad to see NYRA listed in there as they seem to be the most organized out of the whole bunch - e.g. - if they post that R5 will go off at 3:12 then dammit it goes off at 3:12! By comparison the Gulfstreams and all others are casually late by 6,7,8 minutes and as a rule end up going off at the exact moment of another track. Just coincidence I'm sure, right? ... imo it is games being played between tracks who may not like each other but any which way you cut it, it stinks!

As for Gulfstream Park, I have always thought, having listened to some Hall of Fame names from the 60’s 70’s etc. that running at post time was as important to not only the integrity of the game but it gave off the perception that things were professional. Some of the biggest names in the business would talk about that back then and I was like a kid in a candy shop just listening and learning.
Gulfstream Park does what they do for personnel gain ONLY. I have to be honest. I would not be caught betting into that pool if my life depended on it.
it is the ultimate slap in the face to any fan who wagers or attends there.
It might sound petty but when I trained my horse ( again, how I was taught), and it was prepped to run at 1 pm. That didn’t mean 1:15 pm it meant 1 pm sharp.

Dick Dutrow’s daily schedule was as on time as a German subway schedule. Not 1 minute off. Attention to detail.
This 10 minutes late crap is not just to squeeze every nickel out of the handle but to give the CAW’s more time to analyze the pools. But we aren’t supposed to realize that. What an inefficient shit hole that place is. I can’t believe people actually bet money there.

Does it show that I am as full to the brim as I can be from all the Bull crap that race tracks are doing to the fan base?

[str]

Thanks for posting this str. I just went over to Bloodhorse to get a clue - - sad to see this but I'm not shocked based on the many drops in odds halfway thru a given race. I've had a few winners this past year that were - let's say - ML 12-1, down to 10-1 as they load, and halfway thru race they take the lead and now 3-1... or 9/5 in one case. So maybe that is the reason but I'll never know. FWIW, I've never liked or trusted Frank Stronach. Strictly about the bottom-line and nothing but,, at least that is my view of him. I don't like to beat-up on the powers that be within HorseRacing because they make the sport happen but this guy is one of the few that I just can't get behind (I will refrain from my short list)for his dubious dealings since I've been aware of him.
Last comment = I am sad to see NYRA listed in there as they seem to be the most organized out of the whole bunch - e.g. - if they post that R5 will go off at 3:12 then dammit it goes off at 3:12! By comparison the Gulfstreams and all others are casually late by 6,7,8 minutes and as a rule end up going off at the exact moment of another track. Just coincidence I'm sure, right? ... imo it is games being played between tracks who may not like each other but any which way you cut it, it stinks!

The game has never needed a commissioner more than it does now. Won't happen unless the only people that hold ALL the power revolt. That would be the FANS.

The greed is off the charts and no one is held accountable.

Maybe if the fan base wins this case against the CAW's and some ownership, they will finally realize that they have always held all the power but never believed they did. That would create a need for track solidarity and would create a management commissioner that would be there to build the game, the brand, and share profits similar to the NFL which would help everyone, especially the fan base.
But until then, this every man to himself attitude with state to state racing that has existed forever will remain. It's a dog eat dog atmosphere that helps the few, hurts the majority and the fans are the recipient of all the downfall.

I don't claim to know much, but what I do know, I really know. Horse racing and all it's moving parts are one of those things I do understand. Basically spent my life in it or around it.

[JBEX]

sunday by army mule @
baq/gulfstream/laurel/santa anita

boldface running


nothing

[S0BRiquet]

Thanks for posting this str. I just went over to Bloodhorse to get a clue - - sad to see this but I'm not shocked based on the many drops in odds halfway thru a given race. I've had a few winners this past year that were - let's say - ML 12-1, down to 10-1 as they load, and halfway thru race they take the lead and now 3-1... or 9/5 in one case. So maybe that is the reason but I'll never know. FWIW, I've never liked or trusted Frank Stronach. Strictly about the bottom-line and nothing but,, at least that is my view of him. I don't like to beat-up on the powers that be within HorseRacing because they make the sport happen but this guy is one of the few that I just can't get behind (I will refrain from my short list)for his dubious dealings since I've been aware of him.
Last comment = I am sad to see NYRA listed in there as they seem to be the most organized out of the whole bunch - e.g. - if they post that R5 will go off at 3:12 then dammit it goes off at 3:12! By comparison the Gulfstreams and all others are casually late by 6,7,8 minutes and as a rule end up going off at the exact moment of another track. Just coincidence I'm sure, right? ... imo it is games being played between tracks who may not like each other but any which way you cut it, it stinks!

[str]

I wanted to be sure and give a BIG shoutout to the Stronach group who has not only done their best to destroy California racing, Maryland racing, and currently working on destroying Florida racing, but have now landed in court by way of a class action suit for joining and participating in the CAW betting. Of course, they are not in court alone but let's give credit where credit is due.

The CAW betting groups are doing everything they can to chase fans away in droves with their unethical betting behavior and rebates for the chosen few. Under their savvy guidance, they are working diligently to destroy horse racing in the United States. They have information that other bettors do not have access to. I should say allegedly although there is clear evidence of that apparently.

With talk of betting after the race has started as well as manipulating the pools, I would think that everyone would want to go to the race track and spend a day getting screwed. You know, bet a 6-1 shot and when it goes into the 1st turn with the lead it flashes down to 9-5. Oh what fun.
Maybe catch an NBA game afterwards for the full body experience.

It makes me second guess ( NOT !)why I left the track after 25 years of playing the game straight while watching cheaters prosper at every turn starting in the very late 80's when the lab testing for racing was so far behind and so underfunded to try and keep up with the influx of new drugs and cocktails that appeared almost monthly.
People that rarely won, were winning bigly. Those that were regular winners, some how all slumped at the same time. AMAZING !

In all seriousness, I'm sickened by what is happening to racing. It hurts to see it. For the longest time I was proud to say that I participated in a game that was much more honest than it was ever given credit for. As of now, I cannot defend it and quite frankly, cringe when it is mentioned to me.

What a crying shame.

[JBEX]

saturday by army mule @
baq/gulfstream/laurel/keeneland/santa anita

boldface running

keeneland 1 (1pm)
1 backstretch rose (10-1)

lot of 1's ..maybe a good omen

[JBEX]

ARMY MULE-J LA TACHE, CH C
BLAKE-ALBINA THOROUGHBRED SERVICES LLC, AGENT II
KY
11
Video


KENNETH MCPEEK, AGT.
$370,000.
Half to Pam Pam. Pretty good ROI on this colt!

yeah I agree .. for the info fetched a lot imo

[batt33]

Pretty interesting so far from one sold at 4 and the other at 60.. with 3 RNA's. Except for the first hip, Most of the others have been light on the dam's side. I haven't looked at the later hips yet.

2023 was the first year they raised his fee (7.5>12.5)
so he figures to have gotten a better bunch of mares..next year will be interesting to see how his 2yo's fare

ARMY MULE-J LA TACHE, CH C
BLAKE-ALBINA THOROUGHBRED SERVICES LLC, AGENT II
KY
11
Video


KENNETH MCPEEK, AGT.
$370,000.
Half to Pam Pam. Pretty good ROI on this colt!

[JBEX]

friday by army mule @
baq/gulfstream/laurel/keeneland/santa anita

boldface running

nothing

[JBEX]

thursday army mule @
baq/gulfstream/laurel/keeneland/

nothing

[JBEX]

wednesday by army mule @
baq/gulfstream/laurel/keeneland/santa anita

boldface tracks running


keeneland 3 (2:04)
4 colonel caliente (5-2)

[JBEX]

Pretty interesting so far from one sold at 4 and the other at 60.. with 3 RNA's. Except for the first hip, Most of the others have been light on the dam's side. I haven't looked at the later hips yet.

2023 was the first year they raised his fee (7.5>12.5)
so he figures to have gotten a better bunch of mares..next year will be interesting to see how his 2yo's fare

[batt33]

wasn't aware and saw what you said on their sales page .. interesting to see what they go for over the next few days

Pretty interesting so far from one sold at 4 and the other at 60.. with 3 RNA's. Except for the first hip, Most of the others have been light on the dam's side. I haven't looked at the later hips yet.

[batt33]

I would hope so. Some of those prices were way higher than anticipated.
Unbelievable.

Yes for sure, I saw around 5 PS horses for a variety of prices. Interesting to see some of the big name consignors do some post sale sales at the lower end. I think the owners of the horses were expecting an active market.

[str]

I saw 15 "army mules with 2 outs at the " Fasig tipton sale that started today. Market looks a little soft so far compared to the last few sales.

I would hope so. Some of those prices were way higher than anticipated.
Unbelievable.

[JBEX]

I saw 15 "army mules with 2 outs at the " Fasig tipton sale that started today. Market looks a little soft so far compared to the last few sales.

wasn't aware and saw what you said on their sales page .. interesting to see what they go for over the next few days

[JBEX]

JBEX, all kinds of agreements are made..... Here are a couple of more,
A person has a quality mare.... but no farm. They make a deal with the farm... in return for board and care they will split the profits of the foal.

A farm with a lower stud fee for their horse is trying to drum up interest ( the more offspring, the better chance of getting a nice runner)so they make a deal for an even lower price or "free" ...based on quality of the mare.

sometimes the "elite studs" are just out of reach so they will look along the same"blood lines" or "Nick's" to find a sire that is more affordable.
On a side note just looking at the stud fees for next year "army mule" is one of the few "mid level sires" to have his stud fee go up
from 20,000 to 25,000. most have remained the same or gone down. Alot of the farms have reported out already kinda interested to see where "Sieze the Grey " ends up. Gainsway has not reported yet. He was at 30,000 last season I suspect it will go to 20 to 25.

I agree it would be awesome for her to go to a top flight stallion!

see what your saying about deals and the logic behind them
..will be interesting to see what they decide to do .. with yesterday's poor result ,and being it's late in the year, have to think they might consider breeding her next year

I saw army mule's fee went up $5k which is back to what it was in 2024..nice perspective you gave of how it might have a positive meaning considering the market level he's at ..AM fee dropped from 10 to $7.5k in his second season so we'll see what happens with STG

[batt33]

I saw 15 "army mules with 2 outs at the " Fasig tipton sale that started today. Market looks a little soft so far compared to the last few sales.

[batt33]

I'm a little confused with this batt and str..I guess if the mare is owned by multiple partners that's an issue also ..but if that's not the case you are saying a couple of possibilities are two seasons with a coin flip or some % split of both or the only foal(s) by the farm and mare owner .. didn't think of it before but now that you linked the secretariat story (which is pretty cool and believe I may have heard at some point) it really does make sense to try two matings..I'm sure a lot of thought and science goes into deciding which elite sire might fit best and then of course they have to be willing to make a deal.. maybe they just land on a $50-100k (or possibly less than that ) stallion but I would think with her race record an elite stallion would be appealing ..how cool would it be for gun runner,justify,into mischief or curlin to be the daddy of her first foal

JBEX, all kinds of agreements are made..... Here are a couple of more,
A person has a quality mare.... but no farm. They make a deal with the farm... in return for board and care they will split the profits of the foal.

A farm with a lower stud fee for their horse is trying to drum up interest ( the more offspring, the better chance of getting a nice runner)so they make a deal for an even lower price or "free" ...based on quality of the mare.

sometimes the "elite studs" are just out of reach so they will look along the same"blood lines" or "Nick's" to find a sire that is more affordable.
On a side note just looking at the stud fees for next year "army mule" is one of the few "mid level sires" to have his stud fee go up
from 20,000 to 25,000. most have remained the same or gone down. Alot of the farms have reported out already kinda interested to see where "Sieze the Grey " ends up. Gainsway has not reported yet. He was at 30,000 last season I suspect it will go to 20 to 25.

I agree it would be awesome for her to go to a top flight stallion!

[batt33]

I saw Batt's response. He is right about what he said.

So deals are made more often than you might think. It can be an equity stake in a foal, It can be two people saying, we breed them 2 years in a row. Flip a coin on who gets year one and year two. All sorts of stuff like that.

BTW, there was a deal like that coin flip years ago .

Check this one out.

https://www.secretariat.com/the-toss...f-secretariat/

cool story!

[ChuckyTheGoat]

I don't think a sire CAN be + EV with ALL of their offspring, but what is so cool about this horse (Army Mule), is that he was ultra competitive in his career and he has passed all of that onto his offspring. If you see an Army Mule off the board, you can bet that in 99% of the cases if not all. the effort was there but circumstances, like class, footing, etc. was not. Simply put, they ALL try their guts out which is really rare.
Some sires are so great that just about all of their offspring can run. But, as great as they are ability wise, some are finicky with trips or positioning and throw in dull efforts at times. For instance , Fierceness checks that box. But I have yet to see an Army Mule run a race where there was no try. That is really rare and IMO , that makes every Army Mule entered a horse worth a long look.
Chucky, remember the old sports illustrated covers that had guys like Butkus, Huff, Singletary, or Tittle on his knees at the goal line with blood running down his forehead.
That is what Army Mule horses are. Blood and guts efforts.

I have such a profound respect for that type of horse and Army Mile is the poster sire for those types. It was an honor to be able to train and be around those few with that deep trait. One of my very fondest memories and the ability did not matter. It was what they brought every time, everyday, in everything they did. What they showed me, made ME better.

Hope that makes sense.

Great stuff, str. I once saw a Rick Barry interview. Interviewer made a comment:
"Greatest sire in NBA history = Rick Barry."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Barry#Personal_life

...Rick = only guy to ever have three sons to play in the NBA. Fourth played in Europe.

[JBEX]

Some of the shares or "stud fees" come with the group that has the horse and As long as the prospective mare has the pedigree I'm sure deals are made.
So the owner of a share may say "hey" you can use my share and become a partner in the mare and the offspring or whatever they come up with....

I'm a little confused with this batt and str..I guess if the mare is owned by multiple partners that's an issue also ..but if that's not the case you are saying a couple of possibilities are two seasons with a coin flip or some % split of both or the only foal(s) by the farm and mare owner .. didn't think of it before but now that you linked the secretariat story (which is pretty cool and believe I may have heard at some point) it really does make sense to try two matings..I'm sure a lot of thought and science goes into deciding which elite sire might fit best and then of course they have to be willing to make a deal.. maybe they just land on a $50-100k (or possibly less than that ) stallion but I would think with her race record an elite stallion would be appealing ..how cool would it be for gun runner,justify,into mischief or curlin to be the daddy of her first foal

[str]

hey str

do you think in a situation like this if the owners don't want to spend $150k + for an elite stallion but would like to breed to one a deal could be reached splitting ownership in the resulting foal ?

I saw Batt's response. He is right about what he said.

So deals are made more often than you might think. It can be an equity stake in a foal, It can be two people saying, we breed them 2 years in a row. Flip a coin on who gets year one and year two. All sorts of stuff like that.

BTW, there was a deal like that coin flip years ago .

Check this one out.

https://www.secretariat.com/the-toss-of-a-coin-the-ownership-of-secretariat/

[batt33]

hey str

do you think in a situation like this if the owners don't want to spend $150k + for an elite stallion but would like to breed to one a deal could be reached splitting ownership in the resulting foal ?

Some of the shares or "stud fees" come with the group that has the horse and As long as the prospective mare has the pedigree I'm sure deals are made.
So the owner of a share may say "hey" you can use my share and become a partner in the mare and the offspring or whatever they come up with....

[batt33]

hope you recover quick as possible batt

Thanks JBEX!

[JBEX]

21) sa1018 kee 3 priv (6-1) out [6-1]
22) su1019 lrl 6 my l (3-1) out [3-1]
23) su1019 baq 9 dans (4-1) out [3-1]
xx) mo1020 tu1021 off days

nice job by the 3 morning linemakers

[JBEX]

sunday by army mule @
baq/gulfstream/laurel/keeneland/santa anita

boldface tracks running


laurel 6 (2:53)
2 my little nico g (3-1)

baq 9 (5:20)
4 danse macabre (4-1)

all time leading army mule earner at over $1M ..5yo mare so guessing this or her next start might be her last .. certainly will be one of the most anticipated foals of one of his daughter's when she's bred

hey str

do you think in a situation like this if the owners don't want to spend $150k + for an elite stallion but would like to breed to one a deal could be reached splitting ownership in the resulting foal ?

[JBEX]

added the ml to the laurel horse

[JBEX]

sunday by army mule @
baq/gulfstream/laurel/keeneland/santa anita

boldface tracks running


laurel 6 (2:53)
2 my little nico g (3-1)

baq 9 (5:20)
4 danse macabre (4-1)

all time leading army mule earner at over $1M ..5yo mare so guessing this or her next start might be her last .. certainly will be one of the most anticipated foals of one of his daughter's when she's bred

[JBEX]

I'm still here catching up on the blog..... the flu"COVID" or what ever came back with a vengeance.... got me good. I enjoyed reading chucky's and Str'sthoughs on winning at gambling... and of course following "army mules"

hope you recover quick as possible batt

[batt33]

I'm still here catching up on the blog..... the flu"COVID" or what ever came back with a vengeance.... got me good. I enjoyed reading chucky's and Str'sthoughs on winning at gambling... and of course following "army mules"

[str]

Jbex, been reading your posts. Are you saying that Army Mule is a +EV sire?

I don't think a sire CAN be + EV with ALL of their offspring, but what is so cool about this horse (Army Mule), is that he was ultra competitive in his career and he has passed all of that onto his offspring. If you see an Army Mule off the board, you can bet that in 99% of the cases if not all. the effort was there but circumstances, like class, footing, etc. was not. Simply put, they ALL try their guts out which is really rare.
Some sires are so great that just about all of their offspring can run. But, as great as they are ability wise, some are finicky with trips or positioning and throw in dull efforts at times. For instance , Fierceness checks that box. But I have yet to see an Army Mule run a race where there was no try. That is really rare and IMO , that makes every Army Mule entered a horse worth a long look.
Chucky, remember the old sports illustrated covers that had guys like Butkus, Huff, Singletary, or Tittle on his knees at the goal line with blood running down his forehead.
That is what Army Mule horses are. Blood and guts efforts.

I have such a profound respect for that type of horse and Army Mile is the poster sire for those types. It was an honor to be able to train and be around those few with that deep trait. One of my very fondest memories and the ability did not matter. It was what they brought every time, everyday, in everything they did. What they showed me, made ME better.

Hope that makes sense.

[JBEX]

had saturday as sunday ..changed it..1 running tomorrow at keeneland