Horse Racing questions and answers

[ChuckyTheGoat]

We can agree to disagree. Horses have run every 2 weeks for years. It just gets highlighted at triple crown time.

On a side note I'm one of the "Micro share owners" of "Seize the Grey" and boy you should have seen the blog post back and forth on why we should skip the Preakness... lol
My take was to trust the Horse team.... Groom ,exercise rider, vet, farrier... and of course the trainer.

People were upset when "Straight no Chaser" stumbled in his return out of the gate..." Change the Jockey" " How come there wasn't a gate work" Horse was firing bullets in his workouts and never had a gate problem. It' horse racing. when "Seize" ran in the Jeff Ruby he had some traffic difficulty and missed second by a neck costing him a spot in the derby... that's horse racing...
Always going to be arm chair qb's lol

Very cool, batt. Must have been a thrilling win for you.

[str]

Again thanks STR!
Yes alot of the "Owners " have been looking for photo's so I'm sure Jim has been contacted multiple times!

Yes I am !and will be enjoying the moment! Like you said it can be gone in an instant. I remember when at certain times of the year certain races would be on "wide world of sports" I remember watching a horse( along with my friend Roy) named"Landaluce" trained by Lucas....
just in awe how good she was...... then in a moment she was gone....... I remember us trying to call each other... but the lines were busy...

Funny how I can still see it in my mind after all these years flashing across the screen......

Roy his dad Joe and my dad and I used to do road trips to go watch the races at different tracks...
Best horse we all saw in person... the old man " John Henry".

Batt, if you are interested in John Henry, you might enjoy digging back through this thread to page 43, post 1493 from about 10 years ago
(unbelievable). There is some John Henry stuff in there you might like.

[str]

Hey STR: a question about works. Was looking over a horse coming out of a 6 month lay off. . He has 1 published work in that 6 month period. Is that a concern for you if contemplating a play on him? THX.

Yes it is a concern you will need to try and figure out.
You still see this now and then. If so, here is what to look for.

Trainer off time stats but overall trainer stats as well. I mean is it some one horse stable or someone on a farm just training one horse or a larger stable. ?
Who is riding? A good rider on a weak horse or weak rider on a good horse?
The trainers overall record. Is this trainer solid or kind of shakey?
if you can see the horse, is it fat or sleek and how does its coat look? Healthy or kind of scruffy.
Check the exacta payouts and see if they are in line with its form. Daily Double or pick 3 payouts also if applicable .
and of course, keep an eye on the betting early, middle and late.

If a horse off time is well meant first race back, with all these different factors, something almost always shows up.

Keep me posted EZ.

[Easy-Rider 66]

THX STR. I always try to look at the trainer metrics on away 90+ days, etc. But I was not sure how you would respond to the inquiry. I am glad you wrote that it would be cause for concern on at least the surface of things. Thx again for the heads up on certain parameters to look for.

[batt33]

Good deal Batt I receive info on MY Race Horse from times to times in my email. pretty cool you scored with a bunch of other owners.

Thanks! I enjoy it.... Just makes it a little funner when you have a "Piece of the action" albeit a small one!

[batt33]

Very cool, batt. Must have been a thrilling win for you.

Thanks Chucky! It was surreal ! couldn't believe what was happening!

[batt33]

Batt, if you are interested in John Henry, you might enjoy digging back through this thread to page 43, post 1493 from about 10 years ago
(unbelievable). There is some John Henry stuff in there you might like.

Thanks! I'll take a look!

[batt33]

Lastly, you mentioned John Henry. Thought I would send along a picture of his saddle towel that he never wore. It was the inaugural running of the Breeders Cup at Hollywood Park. The saddle towel had been printed but they had not yet drawn numbers. If you recall, he hurt himself working out 3-4 days prior and was retired after putting up the money to run. I have half of the saddle towel. My very close old friend was the racing sec. at Hollywood that year and tore it down the middle from front to back where the saddle would sit, so he and I each have 1/2 a piece of history. He has since passed away but thought I would share it with you. It's folded in half so the blank part that you cannot see would have been where the number would have been sewn.

[ATTACH]70667[/ATTACH]

That 's Awesome!!! Nice story

[str]

THX STR. I always try to look at the trainer metrics on away 90+ days, etc. But I was not sure how you would respond to the inquiry. I am glad you wrote that it would be cause for concern on at least the surface of things. Thx again for the heads up on certain parameters to look for.

Yeah EZ. You know the horse worked more than once. So where and how , etc. come into play.

Are we talking Charlestown or something like that or an established place like a Maryland or Monmouth? You know, 3,500 or 35,000?

[Easy-Rider 66]

Yeah EZ. You know the horse worked more than once. So where and how , etc. come into play.

Are we talking Charlestown or something like that or an established place like a Maryland or Monmouth? You know, 3,500 or 35,000?

Fanduel race track in Illinois so low level claimers. LOL.

[str]

looked to me like he was fighting saez from the 1/4 to the 1/2 .. unable to relax and settle which you mentioned was key to a good performance..at least that was my observation and it's certainly not my expertise.. maybe the fractions were so slow he just wanted to run faster and resisted saez's attempt to reign him in..if this was the case it makes sense he would be tired at the end



since he came back went from 7f to 1 3/16 (big stretch) and now had to do it again..he did win convincingly last out but maybe going further than the 3 conventional middle distances (1 -1⅛ miles) 2nd and 3rd off the layoff might have taken it's toll on him also


not giving him a pass for what he did but imo there were some reasons for him to run below expectations

With all that went on last week, I almost forgot our boy JBEX.

Your 1st paragraph. Exactly. The fractions were crazy slow but he burned twice the energy between his ears as he went into the 1st turn. Such a shame but that is really something we did not want to see.

2nd paragraph. Very, very true. That 7/8ths to 1 3/16ths was difficult physically off the time he was away. This was not going to be his all time best effort this time mainly because he was asked to take another step again after that stretch-out and those circumstances last month IMO.
You know how I feel about the term "bounce", it's usually a load of crap and an excuse. But if was going to show up, this last race makes sense for it to take place.

Your last sentence: I Totally agree.

I think you are seeing this exactly the way I did. Doesn't mean it is totally right, but it all adds up and makes sense.

His next race IMO is going to be a make or break race I think mentally. If he try's to run off or get all exited early again, I feel it will be ingrained enough that it will be real tough to correct. But if he can find a way to get back to how cool he was down the backside in his 1st race back, he can reset the table so to speak and move forward.

I don't know much about the rider Seaz except he is very good. Top notch. That said, I had thought that if we had to categorize him I would call him a speed rider. Honestly, I saw nothing that he did wrong. For me, it was all the horses fault. But I will play what if...
Someone like Prat or Rosario, which would be my best guess, as to trying to get KB to chill out. And I feel that would seemingly be unfair to Seaz.
But if you are ever going to try something else, his next race seems to be the spot. And please, I hate to talk like I would replace the rider. Again, he did nothing wrong. But if you are down to one or maybe two more attempts to right the ship, now would be the time to see if one of them could get him to settle more early. Just a thought. Not fair, but a lot of training a horse isn't sometimes. That's my take.

[str]

Fanduel race track in Illinois so low level claimers. LOL.

Yeah. That's the kind of racing where you might see that. Like a trainer that has two or three or maybe just that one, and trains on a farm. Had to ship in to get that published work probably.

[str]

Fanduel race track in Illinois so low level claimers. LOL.

Also, rule of thumb on getting these fit enough is usually:

3rd start going 4 1/2 or 5/8ths

4th start going 5 1/2 to 6 1/2F. Especially if the first three were going shorter. In other words, a stretch out situation.

You should probably see some improvement in those fitness races into that 2nd start or 3rd. Subtle, but better times. Break down the horses actual times based on lengths and race time to get a handle on that. Not just the race time. And check the days of the week as well. A Tuesday card will be weaker than a Friday or Saturday card and that reflects in the Beyer numbers and pace figures. That's why I prefer using the actual times that the horse in question ran.
Hope that makes sense.

[Easy-Rider 66]

also, rule of thumb on getting these fit enough is usually:

3rd start going 4 1/2 or 5/8ths

4th start going 5 1/2 to 6 1/2f. Especially if the first three were going shorter. In other words, a stretch out situation.

You should probably see some improvement in those fitness races into that 2nd start or 3rd. Subtle, but better times. Break down the horses actual times based on lengths and race time to get a handle on that. Not just the race time. And check the days of the week as well. A tuesday card will be weaker than a friday or saturday card and that reflects in the beyer numbers and pace figures. That's why i prefer using the actual times that the horse in question ran.
Hope that makes sense.

ok str thx

[JBEX]

With all that went on last week, I almost forgot our boy JBEX.

Your 1st paragraph. Exactly. The fractions were crazy slow but he burned twice the energy between his ears as he went into the 1st turn. Such a shame but that is really something we did not want to see.

2nd paragraph. Very, very true. That 7/8ths to 1 3/16ths was difficult physically off the time he was away. This was not going to be his all time best effort this time mainly because he was asked to take another step again after that stretch-out and those circumstances last month IMO.
You know how I feel about the term "bounce", it's usually a load of crap and an excuse. But if was going to show up, this last race makes sense for it to take place.

Your last sentence: I Totally agree.

I think you are seeing this exactly the way I did. Doesn't mean it is totally right, but it all adds up and makes sense.

His next race IMO is going to be a make or break race I think mentally. If he try's to run off or get all exited early again, I feel it will be ingrained enough that it will be real tough to correct. But if he can find a way to get back to how cool he was down the backside in his 1st race back, he can reset the table so to speak and move forward.

I don't know much about the rider Seaz except he is very good. Top notch. That said, I had thought that if we had to categorize him I would call him a speed rider. Honestly, I saw nothing that he did wrong. For me, it was all the horses fault. But I will play what if...
Someone like Prat or Rosario, which would be my best guess, as to trying to get KB to chill out. And I feel that would seemingly be unfair to Seaz.
But if you are ever going to try something else, his next race seems to be the spot. And please, I hate to talk like I would replace the rider. Again, he did nothing wrong. But if you are down to one or maybe two more attempts to right the ship, now would be the time to see if one of them could get him to settle more early. Just a thought. Not fair, but a lot of training a horse isn't sometimes. That's my take.

glad you agree with my observations as possible causes for that performance str ..also agree getting it right next out might be very important..jock switch to the two you mentioned also not be a bad idea and something todd is considering..he is capable of stalking the leaders in a race that sets up that way

think a race like the g3 salvatore mile at mth on 6/15 (which I mentioned once before)might not be a bad spot..would certainly have a lot of bottom cutting back to that distance..if they were considering the whitney pretty sure they wouldn't do that now..will be interesting where he shows up next

[str]

glad you agree with my observations as possible causes for that performance str ..also agree getting it right next out might be very important..jock switch to the two you mentioned also not be a bad idea and something todd is considering..he is capable of stalking the leaders in a race that sets up that way

think a race like the g3 salvatore mile at mth on 6/15 (which I mentioned once before)might not be a bad spot..would certainly have a lot of bottom cutting back to that distance..if they were considering the whitney pretty sure they wouldn't do that now..will be interesting where he shows up next

Really? I didn't know that. That's interesting.

[JBEX]

Really? I didn't know that. That's interesting.

don't have the inside track ,npi ..just left out the "maybe" lol

[JBEX]

actually the whitney's in the 1st week of august so they might've wanted one in-between anyway (if it was their intention)

[str]

don't have the inside track ,npi ..just left out the "maybe" lol

Hahaha.

[JBEX]

<br>
<br>

Yeah, he's a runner. Let's follow him for a while as well.

Here is what happened in that race.

Watch the race and at :32 on the replay time, the rider has to take back off the leader because he is inside and the lead horse has made it tight enough ( smart move), to make the rider of your horse have to check before the turn as everyone will be switching leads. If he stays put, when the leader switches, he will mostly clip the leaders heels and go down.
So he takes back a length and when they switch to the left lead, the leader drops directly over in front of your horse. The dirt comes spraying back and your horses head goes way up as he is not familiar with that feeling. If you try and run with your head up, you will see how much slower you are. Can't do it worth a darn. Don't let the neighbors see you trying, you will look like Forest Gump running. Lol.

Anyway, it takes about a 1/18th at least to get the horse back on the bit somewhat but cannot get totally clear as you can see he is trying hard to do that. He has to stay towards the inside but the wall in front of him splits enough that his rider slides into that spot with only a little kick back or none and as soon as he moves out of the spray, your horse accelerates immediately. I have to think that dirt spray never happened to him in the morning.

Once he overcomes that somewhat, (which is an impressive thing by itself as many cannot in their first race and sometimes never really get over it), he starts to rally and finishes very very well. At the 1/8th pole, ( green and white pole 1/2 way down the stretch) his head is back down where it needs to be and he is running great. He got tired right at the end costing him 2nd but that really doesn't matter in the long run.

All in all, a very fine effort. Let's watch his next race for sure. Can't imagine him losing especially if he draws a better post with the speed being inside of him. He will probably break better as well as he had to stand in the gate quite a while with the 2 post and he broke just a step slow most likely because of that.

Watch the replay and let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks JBEX.

R9 @ churchill on memorial day..going 7f and unfortunately drew the rail

#1 world record
@ 4:55

supposed to be showers throughout the weekend there but looks like might be a reasonable chance for a good track by post time



.

[str]

Fierceness is on the outside.

Todd is trying to teach him to rate just off a horse. This is the kind of thing I talk about that trainers try and do in the mornings to make their horses more one dimensional. This along with learning to deal with dirt kickback and settle, etc. early.

Just thought I would show you what I constantly talk about.
Look at him on the outside right in his eyes. Gotta wonder what he is thinking right about then.

That's how you try and do it. Need to put him inside next work.

[batt33]

I have a horse running Monday... with my racehorse "Visceral" Race 8 #3 straight maidens going 6F. He has been training nicely. His May 5th workout was very nice! He will get over bet... lol.... I have no idea who the competition is... but the "big name trainers" are in the race.

May 20, '24 SANTA ANITA PARK		4 F		DIRT" Race-Fast		49.00 Hg		11 of 35
May 12, '24 SANTA ANITA PARK		6 F		DIRT-Fast		1:13.20 H		1 of 5
May 5, '24 SANTA ANITA PARK		5 F		DIRT-Fast		59.20 Hg		1 of 42
Apr 28, '24 SANTA ANITA PARK		5 F		DIRT-Fast		1:01.00 H		21 of 49
Apr 20, '24 SANTA ANITA PARK		5 F		DIRT-Fast		1:02.00 H		30 of 47
Apr 8, '24 SANTA ANITA PARK		4 F		DIRT-Fast		48.20 H		27 of 70

[JBEX]

my addition would be he's by one of the best first out sires and relative to the pedigree specs $400k is a bunch to pay for him..a good sign


trainer has another horse in the race who will probably be the ml favorite..

as a betting proposition I like because they'll be a lot of support for a few others including the first time starter just inside of you ..a half brother to flightline by curlin (1 of the 3 250k USA stallions)..probably the best bred horse I've seen in the last 30 years



whether he wins or not I think your horse is going to be a good one






.

[batt33]

Thanks JBX!
First time starters you are always hopeful! Wow a half to Flightline among the starters! I look forward to getting a form and taking a look at the race!
Visceral had some shin issues awhile back so they backed off on him. He then had a little issue handling the turns on his earlier workouts so they employed various tactics to get him to handle the turns more professionally (I.e. galloping him in company, changing his bit and adding a shadow roll) Finally something clicked and he has been more focused.
Yes Hopefully he develops into a nice horse! But as you know you just never know until they dance!

[JBEX]

obviously the stuff your talking about is very important..but the sire and relative cost to specs that I mentioned I find to be a real good sign..too bad he can't just face an avg to above avg field .. killers in here..be rooting for you and love to know when he's running in the future regardless of what he does on monday

[JBEX]

was wondering what you think of this situation str..batts horse real expensive,well bred with one of the best first out sires..the trainer has another horse in the race who has run stakes quality figures in all 3 of his races but obviously still a maiden..then the monster pedigree we've been talking about working lights out just inside of him..lots of times a horse like his would be the most talented or maybe one other comparable..today facing two killers and 2 or 3 others who are not helpless by any means..a really tough msw

since his trainer didn't know (or maybe had an idea?) that the half to flightline was also running (and also overall depth of this field) consider scratching and waiting for the next available race ?

[str]

R9 @ churchill on memorial day..going 7f and unfortunately drew the rail

#1 world record
@ 4:55

supposed to be showers throughout the weekend there but looks like might be a reasonable chance for a good track by post time



.

This will be interesting to watch. Let's see what was learned since that last start.

No question he can run. Question is, is he a quick study.

[str]

was wondering what you think of this situation str..batts horse real expensive,well bred with one of the best first out sires..the trainer has another horse in the race who has run stakes quality figures in all 3 of his races but obviously still a maiden..then the monster pedigree we've been talking about working lights out just inside of him..lots of times a horse like his would be the most talented or maybe one other comparable..today facing two killers and 2 or 3 others who are not helpless by any means..a really tough msw

since his trainer didn't know (or maybe had an idea?) that the half to flightline was also running (and also overall depth of this field) consider scratching and waiting for the next available race ?

You never know what the trainer is thinking in terms of quality or whatever. I have to assume from the workout write up ( which are always trying to give owners reason for optimum, not that this is that), this horse sounds like although it has been a grind to get him to the races and ready to compete, sounds like he has a bunch of raw talent. The shins Batt, are very common and your trainer did what was necessary to let those calm down. Happens a lot.

No easy feat for the trainer to get the horse to run well around the turn when that has been an issue. Sounds like he was running with his mouth open and the rider had very little control because running that way takes away the riders leverage and command of the where and how, which the horse needs to concentrate on it's job , which is listening to the riders hands and focusing on relax and go when asked.

The figure 8 keeps his mouth closed, blinkers helps keep him focused. Probably runs in some sort of a prong bit to help around the turn. All fine if it works and it sounds like it does in the mornings.
As for scratching? I don't think I would but I no nothing about the everyday training of this horse. It seems like he has been pointed to this race from a timing aspect and I always felt that if I had a promising horse and was over shadowed by some big name pedigrees but my horse was sitting on ready, I looked at it like, go ahead.. beat me. But you better be able to run.

It has been an adventure to get this guy ready to perform and it sounds like he is ready to go. I personally would control what I can for this 1st race and run when I know my guy is sitting on go. As long as he is today, I would run him.

"Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you".

As long as my horse was perfectly setup my attitude would be ... there is nothing to lose and everything to gain.

GL Batt. Have a safe race and let's see if your firster can make a dent in the big guns.

[JBEX]

thanks str

kind of agree about letting him run..if he doesn't get it done but puts in a good effort he might be set up well vs what will more likely be an easier field next out..if he beats this bunch you know you've got a seriously talented horse..also breaking outside of eagles flight (flightline half-brother)a good thing position wise


looking forward to see both of these horses run on monday..be a nifty little parlay to hit for a few bucks

[batt33]

You never know what the trainer is thinking in terms of quality or whatever. I have to assume from the workout write up ( which are always trying to give owners reason for optimum, not that this is that), this horse sounds like although it has been a grind to get him to the races and ready to compete, sounds like he has a bunch of raw talent. The shins Batt, are very common and your trainer did what was necessary to let those calm down. Happens a lot.

No easy feat for the trainer to get the horse to run well around the turn when that has been an issue. Sounds like he was running with his mouth open and the rider had very little control because running that way takes away the riders leverage and command of the where and how, which the horse needs to concentrate on it's job , which is listening to the riders hands and focusing on relax and go when asked.

The figure 8 keeps his mouth closed, blinkers helps keep him focused. Probably runs in some sort of a prong bit to help around the turn. All fine if it works and it sounds like it does in the mornings.
As for scratching? I don't think I would but I no nothing about the everyday training of this horse. It seems like he has been pointed to this race from a timing aspect and I always felt that if I had a promising horse and was over shadowed by some big name pedigrees but my horse was sitting on ready, I looked at it like, go ahead.. beat me. But you better be able to run.

It has been an adventure to get this guy ready to perform and it sounds like he is ready to go. I personally would control what I can for this 1st race and run when I know my guy is sitting on go. As long as he is today, I would run him.

"Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you".

As long as my horse was perfectly setup my attitude would be ... there is nothing to lose and everything to gain.

GL Batt. Have a safe race and let's see if your firster can make a dent in the big guns.

Wow Eagles Flight looks to be a monster if he runs to his training and breeding!
The Baffert 2 look to be a touch below his "top shelf" horses both trying Turf last time.
Glatt's other horse Santarena would be no surprise.

Yeah very familiar with "the shins" as we" I mean my cousin had a few getting prepped for the 2 year old training sales come up with the issue. On a side note I got to learn how to feel the legs of the horses and the palpation points... heat etc.

As far as the workout writeup... it was the clocker comments and not somebody from MRH! which is nice as I know people like to make lemonade out of lemons sometimes and are always optimistic!
The Jockey has been the one working with him in the morning so that's nice!
Like I said earlier you still have to run the race! Hoping for the best!

And Thanks JBEX and STR For the comments!

[JBEX]

no problem batts

just for reference flightline is by tapit who is another elite sire..he didn't come from modest paternal bloodlines


have a hunch a guy like sadler wouldnt ask for too much in the morning drills especially with a horse of that ilk ..if that's the case and he's doing a lot of those drills well within himself scary to think how good he might be







.

[str]

Hey STR: a question about works. Was looking over a horse coming out of a 6 month lay off. . He has 1 published work in that 6 month period. Is that a concern for you if contemplating a play on him? THX.

for the record STR the horse in question scored at 5/2 as a newly gelded runner.

With the flurry of action, I missed this one EZ.

If he won, I assume the money showed on him.

Also, what can still happen at plenty of tracks is the clockers simply did not know who the horse was or misidentified it and was calling it another name. When you see what looks like a typo where a horse ran, then worked 2 days later or something very strange, that is what has most likely happened. Especially if there was a recent change of trainer. The clockers know the outfits riders and saddle towels used and if everything gets switched and no claim was recorded or trainer change, they can easily miss it. Not at the big name tracks but at the cheaper tracks absolutely.

Hope that gives you more clarity on the subject. Hope you bet it.

[Easy-Rider 66]

With the flurry of action, I missed this one EZ.

If he won, I assume the money showed on him.

Also, what can still happen at plenty of tracks is the clockers simply did not know who the horse was or misidentified it and was calling it another name. When you see what looks like a typo where a horse ran, then worked 2 days later or something very strange, that is what has most likely happened. Especially if there was a recent change of trainer. The clockers know the outfits riders and saddle towels used and if everything gets switched and no claim was recorded or trainer change, they can easily miss it. Not at the big name tracks but at the cheaper tracks absolutely.

Hope that gives you more clarity on the subject. Hope you bet it.

you already answered this STR let me find the post #'s

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: Check posts #7528 and #7534. THX for the extra info.

[str]

you already answered this STR let me find the post #'s

Hey STR: Check posts #7528 and #7534. THX for the extra info.

Yeah, I saw them but can't recall that I knew the horse won.

Guess I skimmed over it or... might be losing it EZ. Lol.

Thanks man.