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[QUOTE=Thunderground;30241989]Hey str, long time.
I just have a question about horse shoes. Who does this job normally, and is it a precision job or more of a routine job without too much attention to detail? Reason I'm asking is that, to my mind, the tiniest angle error at the ankle becomes magnified at the knees, and even more so at the hips. So I'm just wondering if that is true and where that would rank in terms of the horse's health and racing ability.
Q. I just have a question about horse shoes. Who does this job normally, and is it a precision job or more of a routine job without too much attention to detail?
A. Every trainer has a blacksmith that they hire. On a typical backstretch full of horses, there are probably 7-9 blacksmiths available.
Yes, it is a precision job. That might even be an understatement. And there is a ton of attention to detail with shoeing each horse.
Most trainers keep a chart of each horse as to when they were last shod, which means shoed. Typically a horse is to be shod every 30 days. But there are details within that statement.
Their toe nails grow faster in the summer than the winter or depending on where you train. Shoes get worn out faster at Pimlico than at Laurel due to all the concrete the horse has to deal with. The toes get worn down and that can be a problem . You do not want to shoe a horse a day or two before the race. Why? Because if the blacksmith takes off a bit too much toe nail, the feet can be tender for a day or two until they toughen up. If a horse needs to be shod badly and they are in the race, I waited and did it the day of in order to avoid a possible tender hoof, frog or sole. (parts of the foot). It typically takes about 12-24 hours for any discomfort to set in, just like us with our nails and feet.
Because the toes grow faster in the summer than they do in the winter, some small timing adjustment was sometimes necessary along the way as to exactly when to shoe each horse. My blacksmith checked with me almost daily and we went over every horse getting close to needing shoeing. That is how we set the shoeing schedule for each week of every month.
Q. Reason I'm asking is that, to my mind, the tiniest angle error at the ankle becomes magnified at the knees, and even more so at the hips.
A. Yes, the tiniest angle mistake can cause a horse to hit hocks which is the knee area on the hind leg. Sometimes you will see a horse wearing a felt patch on the inside of their hocks which is to help prevent soreness if the horse hits the area and it hurts it during the race. Or just above the foot behind. It is their stride and sometimes you need to help with the way the break over the dirt to keep them from hitting themselves.
Depending on each horse and the leg problems they might have, very small angles can help take pressure off a certain area to help that problem not get out of control. But... that means more pressure somewhere else so it was up to me to monitor each set of legs everyday and certainly after each race. A horse with a tendon and a horse with an ankle will be shod differently. Horses with bad knees used to be able to wear stickers ( maybe they still do?) which are cleats towards the back of the foot. Some trainers always ran horses with knee problems with stickers. But it was real tough on the ankles so I hated doing that. It jarred the hell out of those ankles. If you ever wore cleats and walked across the pavement, you know what I'm talking about.
It's all about attention to detail in that business. There's one way to win, and 10,000 ways to get beat. More than a few horses have been odds on to win and ran terribly with no apparent excuse when the handicapper tries to figure it out. There is no way for the handicapper to know this but it certainly happens. It's things like that , that make betting horses a darn tough game. But, you can beat it, if the bad beats don't kill you first.
Q. So I'm just wondering if that is true and where that would rank in terms of the horse's health and racing ability.
A. As for where shoeing ranks in terms of the horses health and racing ability? Towards the top. The old adage, "no feet, no horse" is very true.
Q. (I find it annoying to walk on a shoe that is slightly off, and I only have two legs. Can't imagine what it would be like on four).
A. Yes, they find it annoying also and will under perform if it is not right.
So way back when I first got going, having a top blacksmith was HUGE for me. That is what I was taught.
But just as huge was finding horses to claim from smaller outfits that used what I deemed to be below average blacksmiths. It was stuff like that , that helped make slower horses that didn't win much into faster horses that did. You take that angle plus several more like daily foot care, internal health, better cleaner feed, better exercise riders, better jockey's, better grooms, more work on the horses legs, heck, better everything and you get a better horse. All those people made me look smarter than I was sometimes.
Just like an offense line that gives the QB time and makes that QB look great . Look no further back than the last super bowl. Brady had all day, Mahomes had no time at all. One looked great, the other very average. But we know that they are both great.
Well, when I started training, there was a large gap between the upper tier trainers and the lower tier trainers. It was things like a top blacksmith vs. a not so good blacksmith that helped create that gap.
As more money got into the purses, that gap closed because bigger purses attracted better blacksmiths and better everything. So... when it comes to todays game, you won't see that type of gap in NY, Calif., and places with big pots and very good horsemen. Where this still shows up a lot is at the smaller tracks like CT, Penn. Nat. and places like that. Smaller circuits with smaller purses. Most of those places have a couple of trainers that always dominate. What I just spoke about is pretty much the reasons why they dominate. That and because they have dominated, any new blood with money getting into the game will go to them, not someone that wins at 6%.
Hope all that makes sense. Great to hear from you again.
All the best.Last edited by str; 05-04-21, 08:15 AM.Comment -
Thanks str! What a great reply. It's almost like walking around the stables and being shown the ropes. Much appreciated.Comment -
hey str
first off your last post was terrific ..excellent insight into the importance of blacksmiths and the attention to detail that's needed to be successful in this game ..great stuff
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belmont
R4 #3 riding on a winner (6-1)
wanted your opinion on the workout pattern..what I see is steady back to feb 20 ..nice mix of average,slow and some fairly nice moves mixed in.you think only 1 gate work a positive as maybe they feel she'll handle it well ?? I like this horse from a few angles including speed pedigree and think 20k reasonable placement with sire and dam info ..although not great with firsters trainer does have some decent numbers with maiden claimersComment -
Thanks JBEX. Glad it was helpful to hear about all the things nobody sees going on.
Race 4
Steady works which are a positive. Kind of surprised she never posted a 5/8ths work but maybe it's the way I have described before about easing into the pole and galloping out which picks up the difference. (And Bennie Perkins Sr. almost never worked them 5/8ths and few were better with filly firsters than he was when I was around him.)
The only one gate work is not a negative at all. You can bet she has been there plenty. When you work from the gate, the bell rings. Too much of that, especially with a speed bred filly and it can fry them mentally. Best to just get your gate( starters) card, and stay away other than to stand and back out which helps them relax when going behind the iron monster.
Speed pedigree helps as well.
So if I find question with anything, it might be a homebred running for the bottom tag 1st out. More times than not, the homebred owner wants to protect the horse first time out. They paid a 10k stud fee if that is what it was 3 years ago. Don't have that info either but they probably have plenty more than 20k in the horse at this point.
But... I do not know any history on that owner or trainer which would answer this question quickly. So, just an observation. Knowing a history with that owners tendencies would be a solid edge either way.
The trainers numbers are ok enough that if the filly is capable, there doesn't look to be any reason she cannot run well. The homebred angle does grab my attention though. Would need to know more either way to give a better opinion.Comment -
yes I realize there's deeper info you can dig for or otherwise just know about relative to the owner/trainer spotting like this for a firster..with the stud fee and dam info I thought it was reasonable but certainly no way to know for sure..I just saw a lot of things that appealed to me including the long string of works..always like when I see that especially when there are a few nice ones mixed in so it's possible she might have some talent..couple of hours to find out..thanks strComment -
11/1 score with that #3 JBEX and STR. good find.
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Hey STR: when you looked to claim a horse did you put a premium on horses with speed? Or did that not play that heavily into the calculation? THx.Last edited by Easy-Rider 66; 05-07-21, 05:29 AM.Comment -
I'm located in NJ & looking to get into horse racing. Is BetAmerica my best option?Comment -
hey str
today marks the 10th anniversary of the start of this thread .. it continues to be a great learning tool and it's nice to get a perspective from the other side as to how things work.. I know that I, along with many others I'm sure, have learned a lot from what's written in these pages.. it's the kind of stuff you can only learn about from someone who has worked in the industry as long as you have.. I certainly have gained a lot of respect for all the hard work and attention to detail that's required to be a successful trainer .. you have given many insightful and informative answers to our questions over the years.. know you put a lot of time and effort into it and just want to let you know it's very much appreciated
thanks for everything
JBEXLast edited by JBEX; 05-09-21, 03:51 AM.Comment -
Solid write up JBEX and you hit the nail on the head. Yeah STR your thread has been a great asset to help me better understand the game. I appreciate the time you spend giving the detailed answers you do. One of the best threads on SBR for sure now running for 10 years. Thx again.Comment -
Trainer Bob Baffert announced Sunday morning that Medina Spirit, winner of the Grade 1 Kentucky Derby on May 1, has tested positive for betamethasone, a corticosteroid, and faces a possible disqualification from the race – the first medication DQ since Dancer's Image lost his Derby victory in 1968 after a disputed positive test for the anti-inflammatory phenylbutazone.
If the drug is confirmed in a split sample it would be Baffert's fifth medication violation since May 2020.
Baffert said his assistant, Jimmy Barnes called Baffert yesterday while he was en route to the the airport in California for a flight to Kentucky to notify him that he had been served by the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission after the post-race sample came back positive for 21 picograms of the medication.
Baffert insisted Medina Spirit has never been treated with betamethasone. "I don't know what's going on, but there's something that is not right," Baffert said.
Hey STR: Looks like Baffert is in hot water again. If you have any knowledge on this drug can you shed some light on what it may do for a horse's performance. Thx.Comment -
Thank you very much!
It has been my wish since day one that some readers will be able to not only better understand what training horses is all about but to better understand the game itself and how it is being played in front of them. Understanding what you are actually seeing makes any game more interesting. I hope I have helped make it a better experience for those that have followed this thread.
Thanks again you guys. I really appreciate it.Comment -
Sure.
The drug helps with inflammation. You can inject it or you can smear it on a joint that is inflamed, and help sooth the area as well as help get rid of the heat and inflammation over a period of time.
It is legal to use, but it cannot be in the horses system to the degree that it apparently was in Medina Spirit. I just saw that the threshold for it is 10 picograms. He came in at around 28 picograms. That is a HUGE difference. Now we all know that the lawyers will spin, I mean tell the public how small an amount that it. And of course, that is a load of crap.
Or, it was the groom, or a mix up, or the hay, or the oats, the water bucket, old bandages were switched, wizzed in the stall, or who the hell knows what, but certainly not the trainers fault and therefore not his responsibility.
Here is the deal. He is the absolute insurer of every horse he runs in his name. Grooms do NOT put any ointment on a horse without the direction of the trainer. Vets do NOT just give injections into joints without the direction of the trainer or the request from the trainer to help alleviate a problem.
It just seems like another in a long line of overages that are mostly created by a trainer cutting the timelines too close. Cutoff timelines are in place for everyone. He apparently pushes the limits of these timelines all the time. That's what all my sources have told me.
I ran over 7,100 horses and never had a problem with betamethasone or Lidocaine. So have many others and they do not have a problem with these things.
This got old for me a long time ago. Especially the excuses. Just shut up and train. And stop with the pushing the cutoff envelope. You already get your pick of the best of the best each year. You have to give meds closer to post time than everyone else too?
This is my opinion .Comment -
OK STR thx for the take. I really puts bad look on the game especially being it was in the DERBY. Guess we will have to wait and see what geos down.Comment -
Bingo. How the heck are you going to get new people interested if cheating keeps happening over and over and over without any serious consequences.
Service and Navarro were all ovet the media in a negative fashion, as should be. They got what was coming for them.
Baffert needs to be banned everywhere, and not for a week or month. It's a joke with him, and it's been a joke for years.Comment -
I don't know. I just have a hard time believing that a trainer who has recently won two TC's would be so stupid that he would hit that overage out of the park, and for the biggest race of the year, and for the same substance as Gamine...
If someone or a group wanted to sabotage the sport of horse racing, who would they target? Baffert made American Pharoah freely available to the public during that TC run. An enemy or a PETA activist could have come close to that horse without any trouble.
How hard is it to administer that drug? How much of a timing mistake are we looking at? He said that Gamine was indeed given that substance, and I suppose that the records showed that happened 18 days before the race, and therefore 4 days before the 14 day window needed for that drug to be out of the system. The Derby winner, he adds, never was given that substance at all. Would he really be so stupid to throw it all away, - his reputation, and that of horse racing -, and with the same drug that Gamine was just caught with? It's too obvious...Last edited by Thunderground; 05-10-21, 10:26 AM.Comment -
Q. How hard is it to administer that drug?
A. As an ointment you just rub it in.
Q. How much of a timing mistake are we looking at?
A. My best guess is 5-7 days.
As for the rest , I respect you thoughts and can understand the logic. I guess for me, it is hard to get past what I have said in the other thread about the derby positive.
Feel free to follow up.
It’s always a pleasure to see a post of yours.
All the best.Comment -
There is no such thing as bad publicity.
Look for the Preakness Stakes to set a viewership record.Comment -
It looks like the cause was identified. So the horse will probably be DQ-ed, but at least it's a reasonable explanation.
from the linked article:Do I believe that story? Not really.Medina Spirit was treated with Otomax once a day up until the day before the Kentucky Derby.
He's already guilty in the court of public opinion. He himself set the stage for this by cutting it too close to race day with (legal) medications, as you pointed out. The problem I have with this Derby story is that Baffert knows all eyes are on him, so why would he use the same stuff as for Gamine, in the biggest race of the year, and in such a way that it couldn't possibly be missed? Either he's the dumbest guy on the planet, or someone else got close enough to the horse to rub in that cream. He knows he can't make that claim, however, so all he can do now is the honest mistake defense. That's just my read of human nature. I'm well aware that Baffert can be quite two-faced.Last edited by Thunderground; 05-12-21, 04:34 AM.Comment -
I am very sorry to say this but, it is almost impossible for me to fathom that a vet would prescribe a skin cream with a prohibited to race substance in it to a horse that everyone knew was pointing for the Ky. Derby. How can the groom not know this has what it has in it? The ingrediencies are right on the box and probably on the tube as well. How can the asst. trainer not know?
Of course, how can the trainer not know and there is NO WAY that a vet would not know. The circumstances as they are laid out defy any logic whatsoever.
I wrote more but deleted it. Seems we never really get a straight answer out of this barn. Just, it was this, no it was that, hocus pocus until everyone gets worn out on the subject or the next stupid thing occurs.
Like I said earlier, I'm just sick of it.Comment -
Strange things are happening in California ever since the rather weird (as in daughter suing daddy) Stronach Group took over Santa Anita and Golden Gates. The two most successful trainers - Hollendorfer and Baffert - are either kicked out or have their reputation destroyed. Coincidence?
Baffert's finest horse last year, - Gamine - , caught twice with doping... When she doesn't need it at all. She wins races by five, six lengths... Now this with the Derby entry. His two highest profile horses in the past year.
I'm sorry, but if I would have to choose between sabotage and idiocy I would have the pick the former. It is simply more likely to me that someone is trying to destroy Baffert, and in such a way that he can't defend himself against it (other than by coming up with crappy excuses), than that he turned into the biggest and most self-destructive idiot on the planet. I may very well be wrong, but that would be my wager. Maybe I should finally order my Phar Lap hat.
Last edited by Thunderground; 05-13-21, 08:01 AM.Comment -
While the phrase "anything is possible" applies quite often, I cannot muster up the strength to give anyone the benefit of the doubt after 30 positives in horse racing. These 30 positives are not a new thing. In his own book he wrote, that was published in 1999, he told the story of his 1st positive and how he "came up with a story" for the investigators.Strange things are happening in California ever since the rather weird (as in daughter suing daddy) Stronach Group took over Santa Anita and Golden Gates. The two most successful trainers - Hollendorfer and Baffert - are either kicked out or have their reputation destroyed. Coincidence?
Baffert's finest horse last year, - Gamine - , caught twice with doping... When she doesn't need it at all. She wins races by five, six lengths... Now this with the Derby entry. His two highest profile horses in the past year.
I'm sorry, but if I would have to choose between sabotage and idiocy I would have the pick the former. It is simply more likely to me that someone is trying to destroy Baffert, and in such a way that he can't defend himself against it (other than by coming up with crappy excuses), than that he turned into the biggest and most self-destructive idiot on the planet. I may very well be wrong, but that would be my wager. Maybe I should finally order my Phar Lap hat.
If I sound bitter towards anyone who gets multiple positives where it becomes obvious they are trying to take an edge, it's because I am. And 30 positives is way more than multiple IMO.
I was forced to try and compete against that scenario in Maryland in the 90's. An unlevel playing field that I was told by the Stewards would not become level again any time soon. It forced me out of a game that I loved and respected, and had worked at from Sept. of 1972 until May of 2001.
I respect your opinion, but for me, I just can't get there. Too much baggage I guess.
All the best to you.Comment -
hey str
are you familiar (or just know of) the trainer janet elliot? I've seen her name going back decades..looked her up and she dates back to the late 70's.. her peak time was the 90's and a lot less active the last 20 years (especially the last 10)..she's got a horse in the last at belmont today coming in from training at fair hill that I find a little interesting at a huge priceComment -
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