Horse Racing questions and answers

[Louisvillekid1]

I didn't check in but I read a bunch of it. I loved it.

It is a shame but if any trainer in America can work around that schedule, it's Barclay Tagg. Good guy, tough to work for guy. No nonsense, no BS, just get the job done attitude. Wonder where he learned that . LOL.

Barclay is a classic old time patient trainer. He learned from one of the very best. The guy in JBEX's avatar.

Hey , I’m not too insecure to admit it

we look up to you here

and I like to make you proud

I get a bad rep on here sometimes

but in the horse racing forum ,

I like when you say I’m doing good

Anyone can call me bitch , go ahead

but I know how to learn from pros that been there

...

[str]

Hey , I’m not too insecure to admit it

we look up to you here

and I like to make you proud

I get a bad rep on here sometimes

but in the horse racing forum ,

I like when you say I’m doing good

Anyone can call me bitch , go ahead

but I know how to learn from pros that been there

...

Kid, I think you are a helluva capper. I feel the same way about some of the others in here as well. I would name them but if I left one off by accident, I would feel terrible so I wont. But I think they know who they are. These people have shown class, which is always nice to see, but they have also shown that they really care about the game, that they are pretty darn good at what they do. There posts within this thread alone clearly show that. Stuff like that is hard to find on a forum. I've also seen their answers to beginners and they are very helpful IMO.
So it is my pleasure to have conversations with anyone as well as you about the game we all care for.

I can't tell you how much I liked that picture of Barclay, Tom Voss and Mr. Jerkens sitting on the ponies. I new Barclay and Tom ( Barclay much more because he was stabled at the track with me, while Tom trained on the farm mostly) and competed against them for years, heck, decades. And that picture was exactly what you would see at the gap on any given morning. That of 2 or 3 trainers on ponies talking while training. Until you see a picture like that, you forget those moments in time. That picture jogged those memories in a good way. So thanks for that.
I have to relearn how to post pics again. Tiny pic is gone and I am clueless. I am sure I have some sitting around that you guys would all appreciate. Maybe someone can help me out with that.

Anyway, thanks again to you and everyone in here that keeps this thread alive.

[JBEX]

hey str


wasn't, or maybe she still is, tom voss's wife elizabeth involved in the game also.. remember over the years seeing her name in the form.. training also?

[str]

hey str


wasn't, or maybe she still is, tom voss's wife elizabeth involved in the game also.. remember over the years seeing her name in the form.. training also?

She was his daughter of I'm not mistaken. When he passed away unexpectedly about five (I think) years ago, she took over training his barn. Not sure if she is still training or if the barn faded away.

I never knew him well at all. We always exchanged hellos when we saw each other though. I had great respect for him as a trainer. He was a really good trainer IMO. And I mean really good.
He came from a completely different angle of horsemanship than I did. About as opposite as you could get. But he was one helluva horseman. And Dickie Small told me a few stories that also would have made him one helluva guy. For that reason alone, I always made it a point to say hello to him.
I never got to know him well enough to find out those stories of Dickie's first hand. In hindsight, I wished I had.

[Louisvillekid1]

iPhone?

take the pic
go to post image .org

upload the pic

scroll down 2 see a bunch of links click the 2nd (direct link) on the right

it will copy the link

back to sbr and click the photo image on the toolbar (left of YouTube)

paste the link and post

...

questions:
what are buyers looking for at the auction, besides the 1/8th work

also what’s the most you ever spent on a horse ?

also what’s the favorite horse you trained / owned ?

also what’s the biggest / most satisfying race you won ?

if too personal , no worries

[JBEX]

She was his daughter of I'm not mistaken. When he passed away unexpectedly about five (I think) years ago, she took over training his barn. Not sure if she is still training or if the barn faded away.

I never knew him well at all. We always exchanged hellos when we saw each other though. I had great respect for him as a trainer. He was a really good trainer IMO. And I mean really good.
He came from a completely different angle of horsemanship than I did. About as opposite as you could get. But he was one helluva horseman. And Dickie Small told me a few stories that also would have made him one helluva guy. For that reason alone, I always made it a point to say hello to him.
I never got to know him well enough to find out those stories of Dickie's first hand. In hindsight, I wished I had.

I thought he was mostly a ny trainer but obviously he ran in maryland also..remember you said a while back how much you liked richard (dickie to you lol)small and have a lot of good memories with him..I actually remember where
I recognized elizabeth (got it wrong daughter not wife ) from..she had a lot of steeplechase horses but also trained the flats ..not sure if she's still doing it but was always a small stable if I remember correctly

[JBEX]

hey str


when's the last time you saw a trainer riding his own horse ?? (unless a typo).. tampa R6 #3 calypso key (4-1)

[str]

Q. Who was your favorite horse you trained and why?

A. Can't narrow it down to one. I went back and looked through every winner I had and made a list. There were 26. Lol. Got it down to the top 3.

BTW, I forgot that I trained a horse named Game Winner in 1980. Won a race with him. Thought that name sounded familiar.
Also, some of the best horses I trained are not on this list. Several Stakes horses for sure. You didn't have to be real good to be a favorite with me. The fastest were not necessarily my favorites.
Here goes.

In no particular order:

Grey Squall- My 1st horse I ever entered and saddled as a trainer. She won at Pimlico. They say the 1st is always the hardest. She got it all started for me.

Ernie's Lad- Cheap Charlestown horse that improved from 7500 3 yr olds into allowance. Went short, long, turf, dirt. Great claim. Very cool horse.

Ambold- 1st horse I bought in an auction. Timonium 2 year old sale. Paid about 8k. Won an Allowance race or 2. Gave me the confidence to continue doing that. Thanks pal.

Sasega, Hotsola, Steal The Beat, Jump Buck And Go, Dancing Memories, Elkridge Judax, Sport News, Japson, Run And Wiggle, Tears And Kisses. All claims that really got happy and improved a lot. Probably about 50 or 60 winners in there. Thank you girls and guys.

Mr. October- Bought him at the 2 year old sales for about 8k. Named him. Won a bunch and lost him for 35k in NY. That was bank back in 81-82. Thanks Reggie!

Lord Mahlon- Claimed him for 10k at Timonium. Was a 4 furlong speed ball. Got him to go up to 6F on the grass. Won at Monmouth, Laurel, all over the place. Set a track record somewhere. Can't remember. He had bad feet so he LOVED the grass.

Mydrone- Speaking of bad feet. He was GB bred and was cut out to be a real nice horse. Foundered badly . They ran him for a tag at Pimlico, I claimed him. Ran him back in 5 days and he galloped. Loved the grass . Think I had him in 84-85 and lost him. Claimed him back in 87 and won some more with him. All credit to my blacksmith and his grooms. They made me look like I had a clue but without all that attention to his feet, he never would have won.

Silver Quest- Super fast 4 furlong horse. Had a bowed tendon so probably only ran him 6-8 times a year but when he was ready, he usually won. Very cool horse.

Tough Terms- Charlie Hadry told be that Private Terms loved the turf but nobody seemed to know. Cheap horse I tried on the grass because of Charlie and he went from cheap claimer to allowance horse. Loved long on the grass. Thank you Mr. Hadry. RIP sir.

Once Twice- Bought him at the sale and he could run. Needed long . Finished 4th as a 3 year old in the W P Burch Stakes at Bowie and 3rd in the Barberry Stakes at Keystone. Think I paid 14k for him. Just missed being a real nice horse.

On A Springday- A new owner that bred a horse or two had a mare that has been stopped on as a 2 year old. They bred her but she didn't take. So after a 2 year layoff, I started training her. She got better everyday. Really better ! She was not ready in time to run as a 4 year old and 5 year old maidens were not allowed in Maryland. So I entered her in a race at Keystone knowing that if she lost, they would not let her back on the grounds. She had beaten a 20k boy in two workouts so I was about as sure as you can be that she was going to run a nice race. But after 3 years, well, you never know. I sent my own rider up with her so those crooks up there could not screw around with her. She won easily. All the help bet on her. What a morale boost that was for all of us. Oh, that rider I sent up? You probably have heard of her. Julie Krone. Nice ride Jules ! What a great person she is.

Silver Bullet Band- A homebred that I named. Loved Bob Seger. Saw him everytime he came to the Cap center. Not a "good" horse, but most of mine were claimers anyway. But indeed a very Cool horse. Short career but a heart of gold. Tried hard to overcome knee problems. ( Also named a homebred Still The Same and won a few with her ).

Needachant- I've talked about him before in here. Post 21 as well as other times I'm sure. Bought him out of a field as a yearling. Think it was 1200.00 bucks. By nothing out of nothing. Long story short, he won allowance races I'm pretty sure and Johnny Campo claimed him from me at the Meadowlands. We did very well with him. His claim to fame though is he is the horse that hurt Pleasant Colony and forced him to retire. Very cool horse. But hated the gate.

Rescue Mission- I never appreciated her as much when she was running. I had her for years starting around 1979. Another Charlestown horse. I used to love to claim horses from there. I learned from her that sometimes there are horses that are pretty smart and just decide early in a race that it is not what they care for or maybe not their day. I can't say that I was happy about that at the time though. I was frustrating to watch her not put out fully. But I learned that that was her and you were not going to do much about it. In hindsight, her running line for me was pretty awesome. She was a mid to high claimer. She was a bleeder. Had to control that and we did. But other than that, fairly sound. That was probably because she did not kill herself when she was in a tough spot in the race.
She ended up with 38 starts, 14 wins, 1 second, 7 thirds and 8 fourths. That 14 and 1 shows that when she was close she made it happen.
My mom bred her when she was finished racing .

My top 3:

Can't choose a number one. Gotta go with top 3 in no order.

1. Tors Baby- I've talked about her in here. Would work 3/8ths in 42 and run 3/8ths in 34 in a race. Always had terrible ankles. A heart of gold. Could NOT touch her ears. She would go crazy. Every gate crew was warned prior to running her in a different state. She won a bunch of races for my mentor before I started out on my own in 1976. For me , she was 15 starts with 4 wins 4 seconds and 2 thirds. All very high claimer , allowance or Stakes races. When her career ended, we bred her and she had a few foals we raced. She taught me so much. And she helped put my name on the map. I loved her. Everything you could ask of as horse she delivered on.

2. Overfly- I claimed her on 11/21/92. It was important to get the claim right because I did not have much money behind me at the time. I came up with her as a claim. Real glad I did.
She went right up the ladder and won a Md. Million race. 33 starts 9 wins, 6 seconds, 8 thirds,1 fourth about 120k earned. She got me back going again right when I needed it the most. I will always owe her for coming through the way she did.

3. Kindest Cut- JBEX called this one. The horse in my avatar. I could put others in there but that picture is so cool. And it reminds me of Larry Saumell who is riding him. You rarely see that angle picture. The track photographer did that for the Baltimore Sun. They were doing a piece on him because of the streak AND it was a slow news cycle in July and August for Md. racing. I know I have told the story in here so won't bore you with that. A word search will find it if anyone cares.


Q.Also a favorite pony you did not train but really thought highly of.


A. I have spoken about Lucky Lord in here I think. If not , I sure should have. Lexington Park was in the stall next to Lucky Lord . Those two were special horses. I was the groom for those two before becoming an asst. trainer.

But big time names , I remember a ton of them but without hesitation the greatest male horse I ever got close to or saw race was Secretariat. I cannot possibly do it justice to try and describe what he was compared to other horses. He was so massive, he didn't look like the other horses.

And I will say IMO but seriously, it not really an opinion as much as a fact, Ruffian was the greatest female I have ever seen run a race. I still get goosebumps thinking of what I saw at Monmouth Park that day she destroyed Hot And Nasty as a 2 year old. That was freakish.
Again, it's in this thread. Those four horses I named were the reasons I decided to make racing my life for all those years.

So there's the list. But I must say , I probably trained about 2500 different horses, maybe more, for a lot of years. And for all the accolades, trophies, pictures, and momentos I have received, the ones that really deserve all the credit are the grooms, hot walkers, exercise riders, and foremen I had the pleasure of employing, the owners who entrusted me with their horses, and most of all, the horses themselves. They are the real heroes. Me, I just was lucky to have been given the opportunity to train them, and place them in races I thought they could succeed. I hope I held up my end of the bargain. I know, they held up thiers.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane Easy. I appreciate it.

BTW, who is the mare and foal in your avatar?

Kid, here is a post , #3628 of my favorite horses.

I am going to figure out the picture deal, thanks to you and Har for giving me some tips and will follow up with that stuff soon I hope.

For now, read the above for my favorite horses.

[str]

hey str


when's the last time you saw a trainer riding his own horse ?? (unless a typo).. tampa R6 #3 calypso key (4-1)

I saw several over the years. Not a lot though. Most times they were retired older riders that IMO should not have been on the horse. I do remember a couple of times where they were so exhausted that they could not finish the race and could not pull up the horse. It was ridiculous.
I do understand the passion now that I am older but it probably was not the wisest choice to do so. At 4-1 and going a mile, this one sounds like maybe the rider is still young and fit? You must be in order to go a mile.

[JBEX]

I saw several over the years. Not a lot though. Most times they were retired older riders that IMO should not have been on the horse. I do remember a couple of times where they were so exhausted that they could not finish the race and could not pull up the horse. It was ridiculous.
I do understand the passion now that I am older but it probably was not the wisest choice to do so. At 4-1 and going a mile, this one sounds like maybe the rider is still young and fit? You must be in order to go a mile.

it was david flores, long time so.california jockey..52 years old (finished solid 2nd) mike smith, gary stevens and of course shoemaker @ 54 won the derby with ferdinand in 1986..think pincay eclipsed 50 also.. in one of louisville kids videos saw john veitch (in an interview many years later) complain about pincay's cutting off affirmed in the travers (not 100% sure it was that race)..he still looked pissed lol

[str]

questions:
what are buyers looking for at the auction, besides the 1/8th work



Answer.

Well, those 1/8th mile works are only for the 2 year old sales. For me, I was never a fan of buying a horse that worked fast. Why? Because the amount of stress on the horse that was anywhere from 21-25 months old was not worth it in my mind. I never had big money behind me so I was not wasting my time looking at those types.
Some of the things I saw going on in the evening at those sales made me sick. I probably should leave it at that but I think you get my drift.
The yearling sales where the most money is spent, those horses have not been broken yet . Never been ridden. So what you look for is breeding, conformation, the horses all around look, scope, etc. Their eye. Their presence or lack of it. You just try and get a feel for the horse in general. If you like it, you probably pay a vet to scope it and x ray it. Then , if that passes the test, you decide on a price you will go to. That's how I did it.

You can strike a rapport with the seller over time and if you have a name in the business, they want to sell to you knowing that you will give the horse a better chance to succeed than maybe someone else. Once that connection is made, you can speak with them and they will pretty much tell you which horses they are selling are the better bets.

There is a ton of inside stuff that goes into that market. It's the ultimate rich get richer situation. That is why certain trainers that buy young horses a lot will be led straight to the best bets year after year. If you ever wondered why a certain few trainers always have Derby horses, I just explained why.

Tough business to crack Kid. A lot of back room shenanigans go on there. I have to admit, I never trusted it, and never really enjoyed it all that much. Sure, it was nice to fly to Florida in March and act like a big shot for a few days or Ky. in Sept. but the reality was, it was like playing against a stacked deck to some degree in my book. And if you have read this thread at any length, you know that I am not any typical gambler. If I think I have an edge, I'm in but if I think I don't, I'm out. I go and find something that I do have an edge in, or know I can create an edge within it by being patient and consistent.
I make my share of mistakes but owe it to myself to turn those mistakes into lessons learned that I try hard to never repeat. Sometimes I screw up and make them a second time. We are all human. But never a third time.
That is the only way I have found to survive in any form of gambling. It's not the rush to bet or sweat out a result, it's the beating the game that drives me, no matter what that game is.

[str]

it was david flores, long time so.california jockey..52 years old (finished solid 2nd) mike smith, gary stevens and of course shoemaker @ 54 won the derby with ferdinand in 1986..think pincay eclipsed 50 also.. in one of louisville kids videos saw john veitch (in an interview many years later) complain about pincay's cutting off affirmed in the travers (not 100% sure it was that race)..he still looked pissed lol

Oh. Well sure, that guy was a great rider. And still young enough .Nothing like the mess that I witnessed. Lol.

Yeah, old grudges die hard in the business I guess.

[str]

questions:

also what’s the most you ever spent on a horse ?


Answer:

60K at Ocala 2 year old sale. Took a year to get the horse to the races. First time I ran him, he ran right out the TV. Won as easily as a horse can win. Ran 1:11 1/5 on a slowish Laurel track. So he got a huge Beyer. The owner liked Beyer and knew him well. Because that is right around Derby fever time, we got an offer for 250K right away. I begged the owner to sell him.
The reason I wanted to sell was because I knew 3 things. 1st, he ran from the one post and was never headed. That day was a huge inside bias . 2nd, The horse was mean as hell all the time and had shown tendencies in the morning to sulk when pinned between or inside horses and headed. And 3rd, the race fell apart with scratches and was as bad a group of MSW horses as you could find. There was not a horse in the race worth more than 15k . And that's no exaggeration. That field was terrible. So he beat nobody.

Back in 1998, not many people understood biases. Most people had never even known of the concept. Very few bettors, and only one other Maryland trainer knew about it to my knowledge. It was never discussed by anyone to me. And I did not discuss it with anyone either.
So I could not try and explain that to the owner. I was not going to divulge what I had figured out years earlier to him or anyone. I knew one could exist which I learned at Bowie back in the day. (Pretty sure I have written about that here.) But I never fully understood why until John Passaro the track super at the time explained it to me. And with this owner knowing Beyer the way he did, he would have run straight to him and I was not good with that. I know that Andy knew of them but I also know he did not understand them in depth at all. That was obvious from what I heard him say when talking about them to a mutual friend (not the owner).

So with the owner being a Derby fever nut anyway , he countered for 500k. So he ruined the deal. And honestly, he ruined our long relationship as well. I took great pride in trying to make my owners money. That could have bought a horse or two for years to come. I was not always successful for all my owners but I tried hard and paid close attention to it. For that guy to throw all that away, and dismiss my thoughts without hesitation, told me we were no longer a good fit. I suppose I lost interest in my approach with him after that. I was pretty sure when we ran that horse back, he would get beat. Just had a feeling. He drew into a tough "a other than" at Pimlico and drew I think the 3 or 4 post out of twelve. He broke a step slow, got shuffled a bit and then sulked and never tried at something like 3-5. He ran terribly and the owner, who was already to go long next out and run in the Preakness after that was shocked. That quickly turned to pissed. We did not see eye to eye on anything after that. We parted ways about a year later. Should have been a week later in my book. I had lost interest and when that happens in that game, it's a disaster. Such a fine line between the top and the bottom in that sport.

The horse turned out to be a bust. I think he won a few more races but was mainly a claimer and not much of one.
Talk about a wasted opportunity.

[Louisvillekid1]

Great response and story, ty

[Louisvillekid1]

If you put a claim in for horse, is it pending a physical?

or even horse comes outta the race bad , your still stuck with him?

If I was in the game I’d try and claim the 6 horse in the second @ gulf for 16k

Keep extraordinary company in the original barn, struggled in the new barn and they plummet down this level

[str]

If you put a claim in for horse, is it pending a physical?

or even horse comes outta the race bad , your still stuck with him?

If I was in the game I’d try and claim the 6 horse in the second @ gulf for 16k

Keep extraordinary company in the original barn, struggled in the new barn and they plummet down this level

No. But it cannot be lame either. If deemed to be lame by the state vet after the race, the claim can be void.

Sounds like the horse ,if not sore, has a " thing' that makes it tick. Figure that out and you go back to where it used to be with some luck.

Something like, train it very lightly, or pony with no rider, or turn him out between races , or needs a goat, or something quirky like that.

Might just be somewhat injured like chipped knee or something like that.

Takes work to figure that out Kid but it is possible, no doubt.

Maybe the old trainer takes the horse back. If so, it's an auto bet back first time back.

[JBEX]

hey str


sent you something about this a few weeks ago regarding mclaughlin and contessa..this article along similar lines about the difficulty of making a go of it training in ny

https://pastthewire.com/why-horse-trainers-are-quitting-the-game/

[str]

hey str


sent you something about this a few weeks ago regarding mclaughlin and contessa..this article along similar lines about the difficulty of making a go of it training in ny

https://pastthewire.com/why-horse-tr...ting-the-game/

Thanks JBEX !

I hope people in here take a few minutes to read this. It is as spot on an assessment as I have seen printed.

While all the dollar amounts were smaller, (but it's all relative right?), this was happening when I was still in the game. The only person not getting paid by the hour was the trainer.

And the toughest part is, the trainer is always about 45 days behind in payment so add the carry of a barn full for 45 days before the 1st dollar comes in. You don't bill out until the end of the month and it takes 2 weeks for checks to start to come back in, so that's 6 payrolls, a month and a half to the feed man, all the screens, feed tubs, water buckets, etc. and everything else you have to provide like an accountant and blah, blah, blah. It never ends and when it does, oh yeah, your personal bills. In today's world, you would need 50-100k just to start being a trainer.

I can easily answer the question posed but left unanswered in the article. The answer is that it was very rare to find a trainer that had solid business sense. It is almost impossible to do what you know is right, and make it fit a business model when what it right is an additional cost that will not be paid to you.

I was no different. I did what I thought was the "way to do it". Cost was no object. Not a thought of it. And that lasted until I had 3 kids and was having to support a family. That is when I started to see what was going on.
I got as creative as I could but you just can't overload your owners with bills or they will go to someone else or be forced out of the game.
It was a tough balancing act.
It was by no means the reason I left the game. I felt like I had as good a handle on that as I was going to get. At the time, I was doing fine. But the problem did exist and it seems it is only getting worse.

[JBEX]

Thanks JBEX !

I hope people in here take a few minutes to read this. It is as spot on an assessment as I have seen printed.

While all the dollar amounts were smaller, (but it's all relative right?), this was happening when I was still in the game. The only person not getting paid by the hour was the trainer.

And the toughest part is, the trainer is always about 45 days behind in payment so add the carry of a barn full for 45 days before the 1st dollar comes in. You don't bill out until the end of the month and it takes 2 weeks for checks to start to come back in, so that's 6 payrolls, a month and a half to the feed man, all the screens, feed tubs, water buckets, etc. and everything else you have to provide like an accountant and blah, blah, blah. It never ends and when it does, oh yeah, your personal bills. In today's world, you would need 50-100k just to start being a trainer.

I can easily answer the question posed but left unanswered in the article. The answer is that it was very rare to find a trainer that had solid business sense. It is almost impossible to do what you know is right, and make it fit a business model when what it right is an additional cost that will not be paid to you.

I was no different. I did what I thought was the "way to do it". Cost was no object. Not a thought of it. And that lasted until I had 3 kids and was having to support a family. That is when I started to see what was going on.
I got as creative as I could but you just can't overload your owners with bills or they will go to someone else or be forced out of the game.
It was a tough balancing act.
It was by no means the reason I left the game. I felt like I had as good a handle on that as I was going to get. At the time, I was doing fine. But the problem did exist and it seems it is only getting worse.

no problem str..so you have a horse who only earns $30-40k a year in NY that's a serious money losing situation especially factoring in all the other expenses..will typically a horse who earns that little not be in the barn for the whole year and maybe off the grounds while not running..guess that would mean a physical issue or maybe just a breather..is it a lot cheaper to be off the grounds than in the stall ?? assuming no real serious physical issues ..when they say insurance for the owner are they talking about health insurance for the horse.. there's no other liability a horse could bring the owner ??

[str]

no problem str..so you have a horse who only earns $30-40k a year in NY that's a serious money losing situation especially factoring in all the other expenses..will typically a horse who earns that little not be in the barn for the whole year and maybe off the grounds while not running..guess that would mean a physical issue or maybe just a breather..is it a lot cheaper to be off the grounds than in the stall ?? assuming no real serious physical issues ..when they say insurance for the owner are they talking about health insurance for the horse.. there's no other liability a horse could bring the owner ??

Q. so you have a horse who only earns $30-40k a year in NY that's a serious money losing situation especially factoring in all the other expenses..will typically a horse who earns that little not be in the barn for the whole year and maybe off the grounds while not running..guess that would mean a physical issue or maybe just a breather.

A. Yes. Probably something along those lines.

Q. is it a lot cheaper to be off the grounds than in the stall ?? assuming no real serious physical issues

A. Yes. The % of difference in farm cost was usually about 20-25% of what you normally paid. So like 25.00 a day today if you are paying a 100.00 I guess. It was like 12.00 a day back when you charged about 45-50 a day. Inflation right?

Q. .when they say insurance for the owner are they talking about health insurance for the horse.. there's no other liability a horse could bring the owner ??

A. Nope they are talking about liability insurance for the jockeys.

The trainer must carry workmans comp and liability insurance for all the employees who are on the weekly payroll. But the riders are not on a weekly payroll.

Jockeys have there insurance paid for by the owners of every horse that runs.


Q. there's no other liability a horse could bring the owner ??

A. Yes. The owner could be exposed if their horse hurt someone. Like jumped the fence and ran through the crowd and ran over people or got loose and ran into someone or a car or whatever. As we all know, a lawyer can find a way to sue anybody for anything nowadays. So they have to cover themselves with an umbrella policy for liability or be exposed . At least that is the way I see it.

[Louisvillekid1]

Yeah Ny is gonna tough

Curious to see the 6 barns potentially shutting down

[JBEX]

Q. so you have a horse who only earns $30-40k a year in NY that's a serious money losing situation especially factoring in all the other expenses..will typically a horse who earns that little not be in the barn for the whole year and maybe off the grounds while not running..guess that would mean a physical issue or maybe just a breather.

A. Yes. Probably something along those lines.

Q. is it a lot cheaper to be off the grounds than in the stall ?? assuming no real serious physical issues

A. Yes. The % of difference in farm cost was usually about 20-25% of what you normally paid. So like 25.00 a day today if you are paying a 100.00 I guess. It was like 12.00 a day back when you charged about 45-50 a day. Inflation right?

Q. .when they say insurance for the owner are they talking about health insurance for the horse.. there's no other liability a horse could bring the owner ??

A. Nope they are talking about liability insurance for the jockeys.

The trainer must carry workmans comp and liability insurance for all the employees who are on the weekly payroll. But the riders are not on a weekly payroll.

Jockeys have there insurance paid for by the owners of every horse that runs.


Q. there's no other liability a horse could bring the owner ??

A. Yes. The owner could be exposed if their horse hurt someone. Like jumped the fence and ran through the crowd and ran over people or got loose and ran into someone or a car or whatever. As we all know, a lawyer can find a way to sue anybody for anything nowadays. So they have to cover themselves with an umbrella policy for liability or be exposed . At least that is the way I see it.

wow I thought that was on the jockeys.. I remember (think it was back in the early 2000's) when the jockeys protested to get health insurance.. shane sellers lead the charge and they said he was blacklisted by the owners for doing it.. realize it was a little after you retired from the game but do you recall that?

[JBEX]

wow I thought that was on the jockeys.. I remember (think it was back in the early 2000's) when the jockeys protested to get health insurance.. shane sellers lead the charge and they said he was blacklisted by the owners for doing it.. realize it was a little after you retired from the game but do you recall that?

oh i'm talking 2 different things.. workman's comp and health insurance.. the former makes sense the owners should be required to have

[str]

wow I thought that was on the jockeys.. I remember (think it was back in the early 2000's) when the jockeys protested to get health insurance.. shane sellers lead the charge and they said he was blacklisted by the owners for doing it.. realize it was a little after you retired from the game but do you recall that?

Once their union got strong enough they started calling all the shots.

They had no say to speak of in the 70's-80's.

Guess you can't blame them for trying but all the expenses these days are breaking the industry's back so it seems.

[Louisvillekid1]

Who actually pulls the slip of the lottery in the claim box

realize it’s rare but payoffs could be there as well?

lots of uglyness gets to fly in this game

as we spoke about

I think we on verge of change

Can’t believe Navarro and servis aren’t ratting yet

they can’t win

[JBEX]

hey str

was wondering if you could look at tampa bay R4.. solid msw field with some really nice pedigrees.. I thought what the 6 is doing is interesting in a bad way.. start out just missing in mcl 16k after steadying at the start from the 11 post.. then logically they try specials and another good effort with a significant figure improvement along with a wide trip.. so now tampa's not good enough and let's try gulfstream.. another solid 2nd with a big figure improvement.. so what's next.. let's go back to Tampa where the purse for a msw is now 33% less then when we tried 2 back?? trainer happens to own the horse but don't see why that would mean anything

[str]

Who actually pulls the slip of the lottery in the claim box

realize it’s rare but payoffs could be there as well?

lots of uglyness gets to fly in this game

as we spoke about

I think we on verge of change

Can’t believe Navarro and servis aren’t ratting yet

they can’t win

All the racing offices I ever claimed within went to great lengths to make the process as transparent as possible.

Here's how it works:

Let's say there are five claims in for a horse. As soon as the race is over, the five people representing the trainers or owners, typically the groom to be, must go to the racing secretary's office. At a front counter in full view of all those reps once they have all arrived and been identified as such, and anyone else around, two officials come out, one with the claim slips and one with a small milk jug style non see through bottle with a tapered neck so only one ball can fit through the passage and come out at a time. The spirit of this is that no official touches both the numbers and the claim slips.
The balls are marked with a number 1-12. The concept is from pee pool if you have ever played that on a pool table.
The 1st clerk takes the five claim slips , staples them to the envelope they were delivered in, turns them over so all you see is the back of the envelope on the counter, and mixes them up so nobody knows which is which. Then, the clerk numbers each slip 1-5 on the back of each envelope. Next, the clerk puts the 5 claims left to right , across the counter. All you can see is the number. No idea which one is which. Then, the other clerk puts the numbers 1-5 in the bottle, shows there hands so there can be no palming, shakes the bottle and pulls a number out. Whatever that number is, they flip over that envelope and read the winning claim. Everybody can see everything. Probably saw this a few hundred times and never questioned the legitimacy of it. It was all the luck of the draw.

Back when I trained, if the horse was dead, or won by a mile, the winning claim got the horse. No give backs. Because of that, the game was much riskier. Also, because of that, it did allow a trainer to run a horse they might have known would probably break down , just to try and lose it to a claim.
The new rule about lame horses getting returned really did help clean that accept up. It's a good rule, just too late for me to be a part of.


As for those two trainers not ratting yet? We don't know that . My guess is, if they suck as people enough to do what they did, they will do anything possible to lessen a punishment for themselves. That's usually how it works right?

[Louisvillekid1]

Very interesting and sounds like a great way to do it

thanks again

[str]

hey str

was wondering if you could look at tampa bay R4.. solid msw field with some really nice pedigrees.. I thought what the 6 is doing is interesting in a bad way.. start out just missing in mcl 16k after steadying at the start from the 11 post.. then logically they try specials and another good effort with a significant figure improvement along with a wide trip.. so now tampa's not good enough and let's try gulfstream.. another solid 2nd with a big figure improvement.. so what's next.. let's go back to Tampa where the purse for a msw is now 33% less then when we tried 2 back?? trainer happens to own the horse but don't see why that would mean anything

I see what you mean. My guess is that maybe he tried to enter at Gulfstream but did not draw in, and being a ship in, there is probably a preference to get in for horses stabled on the grounds or trained by a trainer on the grounds, something like that. I have to think that by beating the rest of the field by 7+ last out in a good effort, running here is taking a reduced purse in all probability. Not if it runs second again so much, but if it wins. Didn't look at the rest of the field but have to think this horse would be tough to beat today off that last race and solid work leading up to today. Nice problem to have though.

[JBEX]

I see what you mean. My guess is that maybe he tried to enter at Gulfstream but did not draw in, and being a ship in, there is probably a preference to get in for horses stabled on the grounds or trained by a trainer on the grounds, something like that. I have to think that by beating the rest of the field by 7+ last out in a good effort, running here is taking a reduced purse in all probability. Not if it runs second again so much, but if it wins. Didn't look at the rest of the field but have to think this horse would be tough to beat today off that last race and solid work leading up to today. Nice problem to have though.

interesting possibility what you said about not being able to draw in.. If you're right then this is probably not a big negative.. I'm going to try and beat him as feel that's too much money to leave on the table and maybe he didn't come out of that race 100%..mcgaughey also giving it a go in here with a huge pedigree 2nd time starter, first time lasix, which I remember you mentioning not too long ago is the way he operates.. also swift works at payson park.. he also has a war front 2nd time starter going in the following race on the grass (both Phipps homebreds).. well probably not such a negative as the phipp's certainly don't need the extra $20k they'd get winning at gulfstream lol..going to try and beat all 3..thanks again

[str]

interesting possibility what you said about not being able to draw in.. If you're right then this is probably not a big negative.. I'm going to try and beat him as feel that's too much money to leave on the table and maybe he didn't come out of that race 100%..mcgaughey also giving it a go in here with a huge pedigree 2nd time starter, first time lasix, which I remember you mentioning not too long ago is the way he operates.. also swift works at payson park.. he also has a war front 2nd time starter going in the following race on the grass (both Phipps homebreds).. well probably not such a negative as the phipp's certainly don't need the extra $20k they'd get winning at gulfstream lol..going to try and beat all 3..thanks again

Just looked back at the TB race. With Shug in there, and a couple others that look interesting, that horse is not in a easy as I might have thought. Could still win, and will be a favorite, but sure, try and beat it at a price.
I don't see the move back to TB as a negative as far as soundness. Seems to me the horse has shown enough to warrant time off if something popped up and the work 5 days ago was a blazer.
And the other Shug horse? He could very well have more than one for the same spot at GP. If that's the case, he would take what he deemed as the lesser ability horse and ship it to the lesser track. Owners don't need the money as you said. And, anytime you ship a horse for a race, you always seem to look for a spot for another one the same day. It does help having another horse to ride the van with. Horses like that. Maybe that's why.

[JBEX]

Just looked back at the TB race. With Shug in there, and a couple others that look interesting, that horse is not in a easy as I might have thought. Could still win, and will be a favorite, but sure, try and beat it at a price.
I don't see the move back to TB as a negative as far as soundness. Seems to me the horse has shown enough to warrant time off if something popped up and the work 5 days ago was a blazer.
And the other Shug horse? He could very well have more than one for the same spot at GP. If that's the case, he would take what he deemed as the lesser ability horse and ship it to the lesser track. Owners don't need the money as you said. And, anytime you ship a horse for a race, you always seem to look for a spot for another one the same day. It does help having another horse to ride the van with. Horses like that. Maybe that's why.

I have a hunch just a convenience thing with back to back races that he has horses for.. and as you said the van ride together is a benefit.. looks like he didn't run anything in the specials last few days at gulfstream (including nothing tomorrow)..still he'll be over bet down there and see others I like in both races..we'll see in a few hours!

[trytrytry]

anyone seeing this now at your ADW wagering platforms! wow

Daily virtual racing from Tampa Bay Downs, Palm Beach and Derby Lane on AmWager

*Virtual Racing is not available to KY and NY residents

Daily race cards created from a database of 100,000 previously ran races at each venue
Each race is recreated in the exact order of finish of the live race in the database
All bets are co-mingled into the pari-mutuel pools of the virtual racetrack
Summarized handicapping information available on all races

[str]

anyone seeing this now at your ADW wagering platforms! wow

Daily virtual racing from Tampa Bay Downs, Palm Beach and Derby Lane on AmWager

*Virtual Racing is not available to KY and NY residents

Daily race cards created from a database of 100,000 previously ran races at each venue
Each race is recreated in the exact order of finish of the live race in the database
All bets are co-mingled into the pari-mutuel pools of the virtual racetrack
Summarized handicapping information available on all races

Man, I wish they would do that at Laurel. One of my old horses might win a race.

How cool would that be !

[str]

Anybody watching Oaklawn?

Outside is dominating so far.