What is your religion?

[DeeVeeOSs]

DeeVos-

are you drunk? Your thoughts are all running together and barely decipherable this time.

And you are once again projecting your opinions of Americans on me.

You're equating Haiti to Iraq? It's a complete non-sequitur. Haitians aren't going around hijacking planes and blowing shit up.

And I've never stated I believe the U.S. can do no wrong. We screw shit up all the time. When have I said any different?

So you, as an outside observer, are of the thought that the U.S. should just pull out and let all the Jews get slaughtered? That's your solution?

wow. Well at least we know where you really stand now.

Look, the cold hearted bastard in me would love to sit back and let nature take its course as you suggest. Nothing would make me happier than to let them kill each other off and rid the world of their stupid bullshit all together. But it's not that simple.

Israel is a tiny county of a few million Jews surrounded by about billion Muslims. You think when cornered in that scenario they are just going to accept a hostile takeover?

They are going to bomb every Muslim city within reach and launch their damn nukes, and start a nuclear fukking holocaust. Hitler taught the Heebs a very valuable lesson: when faced with oppression you can't just take it. And they won't. They will go out swinging.

You obviously realize by my past comments that I am not specifically sympathetic to Israel or Jews. I am however, sympathetic to myself, and the MILLIONS of people that will die if Israel is left undefended.

Yes, America does have self-interest in Israel. The self-interest of living. Humanity in general has a self-interest in the survival of Israel. Even if they are too big of pussies to admit it. Israel won't just collapse. It will implode and take the world with it.


Your talk in this latest post is dangerous talk Deevos. It sounds as if you agree with Al Qaeda. It sounds as if you believe that Israel should be abandoned and the Jews left to the whims of the Islamic mob. Is that what you are saying? If that's what you are saying, then how can you possibly defend any of the things you've written about peace and equality?

I am by no means defending the violent/aggressive actions taken by Israel against Muslims. And as I have pointed out, looking back it seems to me that if the Brits hadn't been so damned determined to form a Jewish state,we wouldn't be here. But we are here. The Jews have nukes. For the time being, the Muslims don't. The Jews have shown they have the ability to refrain from using them. The Muslims have shown they will stop at nothing to kill Jews and take over Israel. Either way, abandoning Israel is to invite the destruction of all life on earth. For those of us who don't believe in an afterlife that includes dozens of virgins, we don't have the luxury of just bailing out and letting that happen.

No, no propped up strawman for you to lick this time guy.

Haiti PROVES that USA is not vest in moral high ground but monitary/power gain.

THAT'S where US is found. NOT where *needed*.
-
Questions? Good let's continue.
-
Jew, Islam, Islam, Jew, I don't give a shit who is where on which side.
Don't care.
I don't involve myself with other people's affairs to that extent.
-
You AGAIN claim moral high ground insinuating that, "poor lil old Israel is the underdog and they deserve help."
You are not picking up that Israel is propped up due to vested interest and not humanitarian reasons.
-
Now you say that Israel would start a nuke war?
In how many other situations could we draw out a thesis like that?
How about this one.

USA spreads itself too thin due to meddling, China and their friends to the north and to the south decide that this would be an opportune time to pull trigger on US and simply take over. China's not a democracy. Neither Russia. These cats can roll over US anytime they want.

They could CERTAINLY kick out meddling US forces from the middle east.....but they know how to MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS.

Back to Israel.

So propping up Israel could start nuke holocaust.
Not propping up Israel could start a nuke holocaust.

So what's your point?

If Israel is the threat to nuclear war, then why not disarm Irsael?

Hezbollah does it's best to fight back oppression with FEEBLE ROCKETS.
And Israel answers with laser guided missiles to schools and housing complexes.
No different than twisting someone's arm until they give up.

A very simple mind would want to argue who the oppressors are.
Muslim or Jew.

A complex mind would seek for the situation resolved instead, with that same energy.

Comparable to US misplaced energy. They're EXACTLY where they're vested. They're NOWHERE NEAR doing what's needed for the good of all.


I n the capacity of backing Israel, I say, don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong.

Anyway, my last post I think sums it up all quite perfectly and shows that US is not a global guardian fighting wrong.

Self-Serving-Slavedriving-Slobs.
Of course, the "slaves" are now the economies of small and poorish countries that have nothing to offer, or countries that refuse to climb in that bed.

Good luck with that. "Good" guy.



Lastly since we're talking past each other now, I'll leave you with this.

"I never said muslims were bad people and deserve what they get....."
".....but actually, they are and actually they do."

"I never said that USA was always right...."
"....but really, we can see that they clearly are."

"I can distinguish between the terrorists and good muslim people just fine...."
"........but really, they both obey the Koran which instructs them to destroy the west, so they're all terrorists."

"Israel is the little guy, surrounded by billions of muslims."
"And if not for us, Israel would nuke every muslim country in sight before finally being beaten down...so the only way...clearly, is to give the country with the nukes EXTRA backing."

My point is......EVERY POINT YOU'VE CONCEDED, in order to maintain even a grain of integrity.......you RETRACT within the next paragraph.

Let me sum you up in 2 sentences:

I love Muslims as equals and brothers of mother earth.
(Except for the following list, that "proves" them unequal to me.)

OR

I'm not on EITHER side.
(But I DO support the backing of Jewish state.)

What a klutz.

[bettilimbroke999]

[The Madcap]

DeeVees:

I don't know if it's the language barrier or what, but you seem to keep putting words in my mouth to suit your assumptions, and it's really starting to piss me off.

If you can't climb out of the emotional wastebasket you've fallen into and start reading my posts with a little more patience and reason, there's no point in continuing this. It's getting us nowhere.

Now.....

Haiti PROVES that USA is not vest in moral high ground but monitary/power gain.

Haiti is a third world shit hole that's been ravaged by in-fighting and civil wars for decades. We leave Haiti alone, guys like you get mad. We intervene, and guys like you get mad. (Read: MINUSTAH)

We tried helping Haiti out back when Clinton was in office. It didn't go over so well. Haitians bitched, the international community bitched. And despite all that, after the recent earthquake, what did we do? We gave them our money AND our troops. So shut the fuk up already.

You AGAIN claim moral high ground insinuating that, "poor lil old Israel is the underdog and they deserve help."
You are not picking up that Israel is propped up due to vested interest and not humanitarian reasons.

I insinuated no such thing. You inferred it.

How many effing times do I have to repeat myself? I DON'T CARE ABOUT ISRAEL. It's not about them being the "under dog" and "deserving help." It's about keeping them on a leash. They sit like a cornered dog. They won't just simply "fall" if the west pulls out, just like a cornered dog doesn't just roll over and play dead. They will use everything they've got to obliterate every Muslim they can before they go down. Is that what you want? Are you seeking Armageddon? Because that's what we're going to have.

I am WELL AWARE that Israel is "propped up due to vested interests." JESUS H. CHRIST MAN! Do you actually read my posts or just skim some key words here and there?

I love Muslims as equals and brothers of mother earth.
(Except for the following list, that "proves" them unequal to me.)

OR

I'm not on EITHER side.
(But I DO support the backing of Jewish state.)

Look DeeVees, the Islamists lost all credibility when they started hijacking planes and killing innocent civilians en masse. Once a person starts rationalizing that the premeditated murders of women and children are desirable methods in supporting their cause, they are no longer brothers of mother earth.

And don't fire back to that point with some statement about Jews doing this or that. Two wrongs don't make a right. You don't get allowed to just up and start planning the execution of children because some real estate got taken away from you.

They're NOWHERE NEAR doing what's needed for the good of all.


A complex mind would seek for the situation resolved instead, with that same energy.

Ok, so tell me, what's good for all? What's good for all DeeVees? Tell us. Please. Give us your solution. What's your "complex mind" suggest will resolve this situation? The deaths of millions of people? That's what's good for all?

Please tell me you've got something better.

[gwiz]

Ahhhh. Ok. Now we're getting somewhere.

You must understand, I don't blame any Iraqi that was just sitting at home minding his own business that got a bomb dropped on his house for deciding to pick up arms against the US. I don't blame them for that at all. If they do so because in their eyes it's in their self-defense and a matter of survival I've got no qualms with it. I don't consider them to be terrorists. Not at all. And I've never stated anything of the sort.

They aren't viewed in the same light as Osama and his nutjob friends.

But we can't just have nutjobs like Osama running around blowing up the world. The Muslim community has had decades to take these guys out. They didn't.

In the USA we had this organization known as the KKK. You've probably heard of it. Well they used to go around terrorizing black folks. And then one day people in the USA woke up and decided they were tired of letting those cracker fuks run around killing innocent people and spreading a message of hate. So they stood up to those assholes. They voted them out of office. Rated them out to the Feds. The President sent in the national guard to restore order and maintain peace. The innocent people of the USA stood up to those sons of bitches and took them down. They have no power in this country, and haven't had any, for a very, very long time.

No such stand has been made in the Muslim world. And that is why they now suffer at the hands of the United States. If they had stood up for peace against the hatred and violence of radical Islamists years ago, and convinced them that killing civilian people was wrong, then they never would have attacked US soil. They wouldn't have blown up that plane over Scotland. Or bombed the base in Beirut. We could have had peace. But the nutjobs like Osama don't want peace. They want to kill all the Jews and retake Israel, and will kill anyone that stands in their way. And they have a great deal of support in that endeavor. Enough support that folks like yourself, and the innocent students of Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan were too scared to stand up to them. And so they slowly began taking over minds. Much like the KKK once did in this country.

Perhaps none of this would have happened if the Brits hadn't insisted on creating a Jewish state in Israel. And perhaps they wouldn't have insisted on that if Ottoman Empire hadn't joined up with the Germans in WWI. And maybe that wouldn't have happened if the Brits weren't a bunch of imperialist pigs. But that's all in the past. There's nothing we can do about that now.

The point is, the number of nutjobs like Bin Laden had been growing for decades. They were not kept in check by their Muslim brethren. They bombed the US. And that was the last straw. The Islamic world had their chance to neutralize these shitheads---they didn't. If you want to argue invading Iraq wasn't the best way to go about dealing with these fuckos, fine. I won't disagree. Certainly there are moral arguments against. But then there were moral arguments against the a-bombs too. That one worked out all right. This one didn't. Tactical miscalculation. It happens.

The fact that remains is this: if it weren't for radical Islam, we'd be at peace right now. It is the inability of radical fundamentalist Muslims to accept the Jewish state that has led us to where we are now. Yes innocent people have been killed, and innocent people have been turned into killers. But again, it is the angry, violent, hate-filled Muslims that refuse live in a world with Jewish people (much like the KKK who couldn't share life with blacks) that are the cause of all this bloodshed. Someone had to deal with it. The U.S. was the only country with the balls and the resources to do it. So shut up and get the hell out of the way. If you get a bomb dropped on your head, sorry. You guys had your chance. You couldn't bother. So now we have to. You think we want to? Fuk you. Like I said, we'd rather be at home drinking beer and watching football on a plasma big screen then sweating our balls off in the fukking desert 6,000 miles from home. All we want is peace. Sometimes you've got to kill a few fukkers to get it.

I like a lot of what you say but let me compose a scenario with your paint,

say the black people had a country and some crazy KKK people came and settled on their land and through political ties built a system around the blacks that allowed them to take over and being in control allowed them to start subjecting the blacks to prison like conditions for fear of them regaining enough power to take back the land.Tactically do the blacks not have a right to do what they see necessary with whatever tools available to regain what was in all practical terms theirs?Not just the land but the freedom that is now gone.What would you do for freedom?One mans definition of freedom fighter might not be yours

[DeeVeeOSs]

DeeVees:

I don't know if it's the language barrier or what, but you seem to keep putting words in my mouth to suit your assumptions, and it's really starting to piss me off.

If you can't climb out of the emotional wastebasket you've fallen into and start reading my posts with a little more patience and reason, there's no point in continuing this. It's getting us nowhere.

Now.....



Haiti is a third world shit hole that's been ravaged by in-fighting and civil wars for decades. We leave Haiti alone, guys like you get mad. We intervene, and guys like you get mad. (Read: MINUSTAH)

We tried helping Haiti out back when Clinton was in office. It didn't go over so well. Haitians bitched, the international community bitched. And despite all that, after the recent earthquake, what did we do? We gave them our money AND our troops. So shut the fuk up already.



I insinuated no such thing. You inferred it.

How many effing times do I have to repeat myself? I DON'T CARE ABOUT ISRAEL. It's not about them being the "under dog" and "deserving help." It's about keeping them on a leash. They sit like a cornered dog. They won't just simply "fall" if the west pulls out, just like a cornered dog doesn't just roll over and play dead. They will use everything they've got to obliterate every Muslim they can before they go down. Is that what you want? Are you seeking Armageddon? Because that's what we're going to have.

I am WELL AWARE that Israel is "propped up due to vested interests." JESUS H. CHRIST MAN! Do you actually read my posts or just skim some key words here and there?




Look DeeVees, the Islamists lost all credibility when they started hijacking planes and killing innocent civilians en masse. Once a person starts rationalizing that the premeditated murders of women and children are desirable methods in supporting their cause, they are no longer brothers of mother earth.

And don't fire back to that point with some statement about Jews doing this or that. Two wrongs don't make a right. You don't get allowed to just up and start planning the execution of children because some real estate got taken away from you.



Ok, so tell me, what's good for all? What's good for all DeeVees? Tell us. Please. Give us your solution. What's your "complex mind" suggest will resolve this situation? The deaths of millions of people? That's what's good for all?

Please tell me you've got something better.

You feel I'm not answering or acknowledging your agreement?
There is no agreement.

Like I say, you claim you understand equality and then you talk shit about others' actions whilst exonerating your own. I read you loud and clear.

"Oh look, conflict, whoops! It's THEM that are wrong over THERE! ...AGAIN. What are the chances? That's 456983475839457345conflicts wherein I was pristine and THEM over THERE took the moral low ground."




By the way, I'm still waiting on your objective definition of something you say doesn't exist.

Also, what would your stand be if you were Haitian with Haitian roots , history and culture.
You'd want help and you'd say **** you out of the other side of your mouth.
That makes perfect sense. Do you know why there are Haitians?
No huh?
Just deny them the aid because they don't want to suck your centimeter huh?
That's a big boy.
You probably think if you cloned and led every country in the world that there would be peace.

Keep teling yourself that Haitians say "no" to gauze and grain.
All you do is substitute reality with whatever fits to support your position of selfish inwardedness.

I hope you have to live with yourself one day. That's my wish for you.

"Haiti is a third world shit hole that's been ravaged by in-fighting and civil wars for decades."

What you've said here and how you've said it completely mashes up almost all or your arguments on "concern for humanitarian survival."

Your concern isn't SURVIVALISM as you claimed.
Your concern is YOUR survivalism.

Can you see the difference?
Can you guess which of these is not conducive with mankind's chances of survival in the long?

Dammit your mind functions on a linear plane doesn't it.

As for your example with Haiti,
I bet I could get you to chew through your own arm.
Does that mean you're out of order or that I'm out of order?

No empathy whatsoever.
You're a sack of shit.

That couldn't pin the tail on a donkey in broad daylight without a blind fold...much less assign perspective to world history or current status of mankind's chances on this pebble orbiting the sun.

You just use the drugs to bury all that reality and then unleash your own little subjective postulate to live inside.

Hey, we all do it, fine, but you do it worse than most.

You're the difference between a cup of wine to celebrate Halloween and a cup of wine every hour to help you get through to the next Halloween.

You're a monster and I hope you meet one like yourself one day.
You're the creep and ones like you...just like you...causing all the fockery.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD1vsa4fL4Q


That's Capleton singing on the Far East Riddim.

[gwiz]

this is a satanic occultic thing where you get the "as above so below" motto happening with the statue and the reflection,they are satanists so yeah they are indulgent in themselves and enjoy the deception it creates

you can even see the roman colums on top of the church and tons of arches

[The Madcap]

I like a lot of what you say but let me compose a scenario with your paint,

say the black people had a country and some crazy KKK people came and settled on their land and through political ties built a system around the blacks that allowed them to take over and being in control allowed them to start subjecting the blacks to prison like conditions for fear of them regaining enough power to take back the land.Tactically do the blacks not have a right to do what they see necessary with whatever tools available to regain what was in all practical terms theirs?Not just the land but the freedom that is now gone.What would you do for freedom?One mans definition of freedom fighter might not be yours

I'm just going to answer your hypothetical in real terms.

I've stated from the outset the Brits and their imperialist aims causing this mess is unfortunate. And if I could change it, I would. But I can't. The past is the past.

Understanding and sympathizing with the Palestinian point of view is not hard. But at the same time, it does not allow one to just excuse the deliberate killing of women and children.

The past is the past like I said. We can't change it. The Jews control the land now. And perhaps one day they will give back some of that land. But they are never going to do it at the hand of the gun. And as long as they are terrified that Islamic interests aim to wipe them out, they are going to be way too paranoid to concede anything significant.

The Muslims have to accept the fact that they are going to have to learn how to live with the Jews peacefully. If they can't, then this standoff will continue eternally. There is no way to undo the mistreatment that has happened in that part of the world. The Muslims can either begin to embrace a peace resolution to the matter, or they can keep up this futile war against the Jews.

The US and the west, rightly or wrongly, is not going to just stand by and let the Muslims wipe out the Jews and retake Israel. It's not going to happen. Whether or not it should or shouldn't is irrelevant. It's not going to happen. You can blame it on anything you want. Zionist conspiracy, western ignorance, Islamophobia, monetary interests for the US (which is retarded, but whatever), you can blame it on whatever you want. The why does not matter at this point. What matters is that the U.S. and the west are not going to back down to escalations of violence made militant Muslims. And so the Muslims can either keep fighting, or they can lay down their arms and say "we've had enough, how can we resolve this peacefully?"

Encouraging death and destruction to the Jews is never going to solve anything. The only way for there to be peace is for the Muslims to lay down their arms, and speak of peace. It doesn't matter if that's right, or if that's what's "fair." Okay? Life isn't about what's "fair." It's about what's realistic. And the current aims of militant Islam are not realistic.

The Muslims say they are fighting injustice. But they are making it impossible for the rest of the world to see and sympathize with that injustice when they keep killing innocent women and children.

Just like the Japanese and Germans did in WWII, they picked a fight with the west. It was a dumb move then. And it's a dumb move now. They are never going to get what they want taking that approach. Their only hope is to embrace peace and hope that embrace will be rewarded.

[JohnGalt2341]

this is a satanic occultic thing where you get the "as above so below" motto happening with the statue and the reflection,they are satanists so yeah they are indulgent in themselves and enjoy the deception it creates you can even see the roman colums on top of the church

What satanists are you talking about? Wouldn't the quarter of a million dollars have been better spent on something else?

[gwiz]

What satanists are you talking about? Wouldn't the quarter of a million dollars have been better spent on something else?

Do you think satanists share?you don't think satanists have churches?you don't think they hide among the sheep?

You don't think some proudly call themselves satanists and because you don't believe you think they are joking or just whackos

[gwiz]

I am gonna try and break it down even more **

If you were taking slave today right now someone broke into your house and claimed you were their property because of the lineage of your parents.What rights do you have to free yourself?

Do you have the right to kill them or if they are stupid enough to leave their children around you would you not take vengeance on them since they are a part of your situation and will grow up to rule you if you don't do something.

See how ridiculous the questions of reality can get when you talk outside of the propaganda box

I guess this would be your answer then

"The Muslims have to accept the fact that they are going to have to learn how to live with the Jews peacefully."

[gwiz]

"If they can't, then this standoff will continue eternally."

this is what the bible is trying to tell people,they brag about their conquests and it is written off as fable.

Christ called them the tares or children of the devil,Satan is at war with god and his children are at war eternal.

Think about it,go back in history can you name a time war hasn't existed somewhere in your known realm.

It is a predator prey world some people can't get out of that mindset.These days it's called dog eat dog

[The Madcap]

DeeVos:

Are you going to keep blathering on and on about a bunch of inconsequential hypothetical bullshit regarding your perception of who I am, or are you eventually going to have the balls to man up and deal with the matter at hand?

All I've gotten out of you is a heap of insults and condemnation laced around the whining of a prepubescent tantrum.

Do you merely want to judge my beliefs? Or do you actually want to try and change them?

Just coming to me and talking a bunch of shit isn't helping your cause out. It's just making me think you're an impractical idealist dumbass full contempt and no productive content.

All I've tried to do is get you to understand the reality of this situation. You don't seem to care about the reality. All you seem to care about are emotional judgments about "morality," "equality," "justice," and a whole host of other abstract intangible ideas that mean absolutely nothing in a real world scenario.

I've asked you real world questions. And you ignore them. Is this because you're a coward? Is it because you are scared of how you feel? Or is it because you have no answers? I asked you a couple of very simple questions:

What's good for all?

What is your solution?

If you don't the answer to the first, nor have an answer to the second, then everything you say is completely hollow. As such thoughts reside in the mists of theoretical constructs maintaining no anchor in the physical world.

You need to stop spending so much time pissing and moaning about what happened before, and instead think about where we are now, and where we can go from here. What is possible? What isn't? In real terms. What can be? And what can't? This isn't a fukking classroom. This isn't debate club. This is real life. Do you have real answers? If not, then shut the fuk up until you do. Otherwise you're just wasting your time and everybody else's.

[The Madcap]

I am gonna try and break it down even more **

If you were taking slave today right now someone broke into your house and claimed you were their property because of the lineage of your parents.What rights do you have to free yourself?

Do you have the right to kill them or if they are stupid enough to leave their children around you would you not take vengeance on them since they are a part of your situation and will grow up to rule you if you don't do something.

See how ridiculous the questions of reality can get when you talk outside of the propaganda box

I guess this would be your answer then

"The Muslims have to accept the fact that they are going to have to learn how to live with the Jews peacefully."

Vengeance doesn't solve anything.

Sometimes fighting one's oppressors is the best way to win one's freedom. Sometimes it's not. This is one of those times it's not.

Concerning me specifically, this fight isn't about what's right or wrong, but rather what is the best possible outcome that can be achieved?

Letting either the Jews or the Muslims just have free reign to ethnically cleanse the other is not the best possible outcome. Even if the end result was achievable, the hell we'd have to go through to get there makes it completely pointless.

[gwiz]

Some people would say that backing the "state of Israel" is giving them free reign to cleanse the areas they covet.

I see a lot of the points you make as saying the game starts when I say it starts and it ends when I say it ends.

Tell the truth you were Simon more than the guy who says what Simon said huh?

[The Madcap]

"If they can't, then this standoff will continue eternally."

this is what the bible is trying to tell people,they brag about their conquests and it is written off as fable.

Christ called them the tares or children of the devil,Satan is at war with god and his children are at war eternal.

Think about it,go back in history can you name a time war hasn't existed somewhere in your known realm.

It is a predator prey world some people can't get out of that mindset.These days it's called dog eat dog

I don't give a shit about Biblical war history. The United States of America wasn't around fighting wars in Biblical times. It's irrelevant in modern times except as a propaganda tool. And maybe that's your point, but so what?

Yes it is a dog eat dog world. And it's a shitty existence for humanity. But that's the way it is. And probably the way it's always going to be. Along the way we've tried to improve it, turning in our guns for elections. Sometimes elections don't work. Sometimes neither do guns.

What's going on in the Unites States right now ideologically between liberals and conservatives is actually a mild (very mild) comparison to what's going on ideologically within Israel. Both sides are tired of being told what to do by the other, and want their own autonomy and freedom. One day it might come to violence. But it will never result in the American people purposely killing women and children.

Some things are worth fighting for, some things aren't. Some things are worth dying for, some things aren't. No fight is worth fighting once it is already lost. Militant Islam lost this fight September 11th 2001.

There's an old saying about war: "It can only be delayed to the advantage of one's enemy."

Well the USA made sure not to make that mistake again.

Had radical Islam waited in silence until they could grow their own ranks in greater numbers, gained more state support, developed a trained army, and acquired nuclear weapons they could have possibly stood a chance of winning something. But they didn't. And they didn't because their cause is one of emotional turmoil, and not principle. Revolutions only work when they are carried by the direct motivation of some grand idea of principle or progress. Of moving forward to something better. The Islamic Revolution is directly motivated by no such thing. It is based on hatred and vengeance. Whether there is a rational justification for such motives is irrelevant. You can't move forward by looking back. The world changes, sometimes you have to change with it. Muslims can either except that or they can't. If they can, then they will be able to live in peace. If they can't, then they will keep fighting. And they will keep dying.

[The Madcap]

Some people would say that backing the "state of Israel" is giving them free reign to cleanse the areas they covet.

I see a lot of the points you make as saying the game starts when I say it starts and it ends when I say it ends.

Tell the truth you were Simon more than the guy who says what Simon said huh?

OK. Say you're right. This matters how?

It doesn't change anything.

That's the problem with all of these arguments you're making. They DON'T MATTER.

Israel has the power. That's what matters. Our options are either to take it from them (Never going to happen. No matter how bad we might want it to. So just give it up.) OR, make them feel comfortable enough to concede some of it. And you know the current option to just keep pissing them off with threats and bombs. Obviously that's been enormously effective for the last 50 years.

Wars are a mess. There is no right way to ever end one. There is just the way you can. And that's what the Muslims have to ask themselves. Do they want this war to just go on forever, or would they like the chance of possibly seeing some amount of peace before they die?

[gwiz]

"Concerning me specifically, this fight isn't about what's right or wrong, but rather what is the best possible outcome that can be achieved?"

I don't ask the questions to call you out but to show that the best possible outcome for you might not be what some group of people somewhere else thinks or wants it to be

[gwiz]

OK. Say you're right. This matters how?

It doesn't change anything.

That's the problem with all of these arguments you're making. They DON'T MATTER.

Israel has the power. That's what matters. Our options are either to take it from them (Never going to happen. No matter how bad we might want it to. So just give it up.) OR, make them feel comfortable enough to concede some of it. And you know the current option to just keep pissing them off with threats and bombs. Obviously that's been enormously effective for the last 50 years.

Wars are a mess. There is no right way to ever end one. There is just the way you can. And that's what the Muslims have to ask themselves. Do they want this war to just go on forever, or would they like the chance of possibly seeing some amount of peace before they die?

The "muslims" are "submissive" by defintion so I sure as shit can't figure out why they keep getting the blame attached to them.

It's no different than calling a peaceful man a beast and over time only the beast gets carried on because nobody really cares about the definition of words and they are just whatever we call them.

A word is not just something that the meaning can be changed around however you want.

2+2 always equals 4 and war doesn't mean peace

Have you ever studied the occult?Secret Societies?They are a part of history.

Christ said all that is secret will be made manifest.They hide well but They live.

[DeeVeeOSs]

Why shouldnt Israel back down then.

No answer?

a) USA backs them
b) they're already there.

But this is the same as me breaking in, surround my house with a local ** and keeping it.

Now an outsider looks and see you trying to break back in.

People die on all sides, nobody wins.

And this guy looks at me and says, "that guys is in the house right now, who cares what happened, nobody has the right to evict him."

But if I broke in, or took all when I was entitled half......

Then I should be the one evicted.

So I'll ask you again, since we've ALREADY PROVEN that there is zero moral high ground on any side....
....

Why are you telling the Muslims to lower their guns. Why not Israel?

Oh cmon. We both know why you've chose a side.

[The Madcap]

The "muslims" are "submissive" by defintion so I sure as shit can't figure out why they keep getting the blame attached to them.

It's no different than calling a peaceful man a beast and over time only the beast gets carried on because nobody really cares about the definition of words and they are just whatever we call them.

A word is not just something that the meaning can be changed around however you want.

2+2 always equals 4 and war doesn't mean peace

Have you ever studied the occult?Secret Societies?They are a part of history.

Christ said all that is secret will be made manifest.They hide well but They live.

They get the blame for unethically killings in the fighting of a lost cause. The same way evangelicals get the blame for blowing up abortion clinics. Or segregationists got the blame for fighting integration. When the world changes on you, you can try and fight it, but in the end, eventually you just have to accept it.

Put the Middle East conflict in terms of Mexican-American relations. Some Mexicans believe the U.S. wrongfully stole California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas. Some of them want that land back. And are intent on getting it back. Now most realize this is a stupid day-dream. But imagine for a minute if a larger portion didn't. And they kept crossing the border and blowing up cafes in San Antonio and Phoenix. Or fired rockets into San Diego and El Paso. Is that going to end well for them?

At this point it doesn't matter if the US acquired that land rightly or wrongly. What matters is that the U.S. is never going to give the land back. Ever. No matter how many Americans they kill. Or even if they acquire nukes. All they are going to do is escalate violent acts.

But say this violence escalated, and kept escalating, with all that bloodshed people are going to start looking to understand it. To find some explanation for it. To point some blame. And some people would probably look back through the annals of history and blame the USA, but most people would just blame the Mexicans for being bloodthirsty idiots.

Make sense?

[gwiz]

[The Madcap]

Why shouldnt Israel back down then.

No answer?

a) USA backs them
b) they're already there.

I've already answered precisely why Israel shouldn't back down, taking into consideration the exact "answers" you just listed.

WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR PROBLEM?

Seriously?

Again I ask you:

Are you going to keep blathering on and on about a bunch of inconsequential hypothetical bullshit?


Tell us, what's good for all?

What is your solution?

What do you think is possible? What isn't? In real terms. What can be? And what can't?

Again, this isn't a fukking classroom. This isn't debate club. This is real life. Do you have real answers? If not, then shut the fuk up until you do. Otherwise you're just wasting your time and everybody else's.

[The Madcap]

What's the point of this video?

Some strict Catholic Sects reportedly practice corporal mortification. And even though most people probably think they are crazy, they are still considered Christians.

[lakerboy]

Jewish

[The Madcap]

"Concerning me specifically, this fight isn't about what's right or wrong, but rather what is the best possible outcome that can be achieved?"

I don't ask the questions to call you out but to show that the best possible outcome for you might not be what some group of people somewhere else thinks or wants it to be

True. The best possible outcome for slave owners wasn't Reconstruction. The best possible outcome in the minds of segregationists wasn't integration. But then, sometimes you've got to cut your losses and accept that what you want just isn't in the cards.

General Lee could have kept fighting the Union. But he realized it was pointless. The rest of the Confederates could have kept fighting as well. And there were some hold outs. Even through Reconstruction. But in the end most people realized they just had to give it up.

The Muslims have already lost this war much in the way the Confederacy lost the Civil War. The only difference is that they just haven't realized it yet. And maybe they never will.

[gwiz]

They get the blame for unethically killings in the fighting of a lost cause. The same way evangelicals get the blame for blowing up abortion clinics. Or segregationists got the blame for fighting integration. When the world changes on you, you can try and fight it, but in the end, eventually you just have to accept it.

Put the Middle East conflict in terms of Mexican-American relations. Some Mexicans believe the U.S. wrongfully stole California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas. Some of them want that land back. And are intent on getting it back. Now most realize this is a stupid day-dream. But imagine for a minute if a larger portion didn't. And they kept crossing the border and blowing up cafes in San Antonio and Phoenix. Or fired rockets into San Diego and El Paso. Is that going to end well for them?

At this point it doesn't matter if the US acquired that land rightly or wrongly. What matters is that the U.S. is never going to give the land back. Ever. No matter how many Americans they kill. Or even if they acquire nukes. All they are going to do is escalate violent acts.

But say this violence escalated, and kept escalating, with all that bloodshed people are going to start looking to understand it. To find some explanation for it. To point some blame. And some people would probably look back through the annals of history and blame the USA, but most people would just blame the Mexicans for being bloodthirsty idiots.

Make sense?

It does make sense what your saying and what I am saying is to La Raza it's not whether the U.S. is going to give it back but how they are going to recapture what was once theirs the same way the british look at the colonies

[gwiz]

What's the point of this video?

Some strict Catholic Sects reportedly practice corporal mortification. And even though most people probably think they are crazy, they are still considered Christians.

the point is information

true that they might be called "christians" but that kind of makes a point doesn't it,just because someone calls someone something doesn't really mean jack squat

the shia are the one's who have the "power" over there not the "muslims"

I think that is a pretty significant part of the puzzle.They are creating their own religion and it gets passed off as Islam to the lazy mind

When you hold the power you have the ability to change whatever practices you want.

[charlesbroccoli]

agnostic

[gwiz]

1Chronicles 1:28 The sons of Abraham ; Isaac , and Ishmael .


1Chronicles 1:34 ¶And Abraham begat Isaac. The sons of Isaac; Esau and Israel=

1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel
2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob


Islam
Islamic is attested from 1791. Earlier Eng. names for the faith include Muhammadism (1614) and Ismaelism (1604), which in part is from Ishmaelite, a name formerly given (esp. by Jews) to Arabs, as descendants of Ishmael (q.v.), and in part from Arabic Ismailiy, name of the Shiite sect that after 765 C.E. followed the Imamship through descendants of Ismail (Arabic for Ishmael ), eldest son of Jafar, the sixth Imam. The Ismailians were not numerous, but among them were the powerful Fatimid dynasty in Egypt and the Assassins, both of whom loomed large in European imagination.

[gwiz]

[The Madcap]

It does make sense what your saying and what I am saying is to La Raza it's not whether the U.S. is going to give it back but how they are going to recapture what was once theirs the same way the british look at the colonies

Sure, and that's why we think La Raza are a bunch of idiots.

[The Madcap]

the point is information

true that they might be called "christians" but that kind of makes a point doesn't it,just because someone calls someone something doesn't really mean jack squat

the shia are the one's who have the "power" over there not the "muslims"

I think that is a pretty significant part of the puzzle.They are creating their own religion and it gets passed off as Islam to the lazy mind

When you hold the power you have the ability to change whatever practices you want.

Fair point.

[DeeVeeOSs]

... When the world changes on you, you can try and fight it, but in the end, eventually you just have to accept it....

Paul Bogle says you're a posswole idiat. "Uncle Tom Sellout".

And don't think for a second I'm the minority and out of order here.

Worldwide, in my lifetime alone, SO MANY, from so many difference places
and situations, have thoroughly DASHED and THRASHED you philosophy about what is
to be done when the "world changes on you".
Yes, far more than a petty 333 million have fought downpression.

I hear you say, "accept that whip on your back. Accept that your freedom has been taken."

You're a benchwarmer.

Also, I wonder if that will be your philosophy should the US ever have their standard of life threaten by
a foreign nation.

You'd probably sell your your whole circle to the Chinese huh?
Judas style huh?

Oh no wait, now I see....

When US is the one causing the change, people are stupid for not accepting what the US wants to do in their homelands. That's just futile and unnecessary.

But I know you'd change your tune wicked fast if the shoe were on the other foot.

You're worse than the pharisees you know that?
OK maybe not. I can't show that.
But I can show you're AT LEAST equal to them.

[DeeVeeOSs]

Link is not working- Removed-)

[The Madcap]

Paul Bogle says you're a posswole idiat. "Uncle Tom Sellout".

And don't think for a second I'm the minority and out of order here.

Worldwide, in my lifetime alone, SO MANY, from so many difference places
and situations, have thoroughly DASHED and THRASHED you philosophy about what is
to be done when the "world changes on you".
Yes, far more than a petty 333 million have fought downpression.

I hear you say, "accept that whip on your back. Accept that your freedom has been taken."

You're a benchwarmer.

Also, I wonder if that will be your philosophy should the US ever have their standard of life threaten by
a foreign nation.

You'd probably sell your your whole circle to the Chinese huh?
Judas style huh?

Oh no wait, now I see....

When US is the one causing the change, people are stupid for not accepting what the US wants to do in their homelands. That's just futile and unnecessary.

But I know you'd change your tune wicked fast if the shoe were on the other foot.

You're worse than the pharisees you know that?
OK maybe not. I can't show that.
But I can show you're AT LEAST equal to them.

Still too much of a coward to answer the questions I've asked you?

DeeVees my man, you've used up my patience brother and have become quite the bore. I want to talk about the issue at hand, you just want to talk about how you feel about me. When you're ready to stop revving your mental engine in neutral and are ready to put it in gear so as stop spinning the wheels of this conversation in the mud, then get back to me. Until then I'd ask that you stop interjecting yourself into the conversation I'm having with gwiz.