500 point giveaway!

[Daniel Espinosa]

I challenged you again John! Lets see how I do this time (although my results have been pretty bad last games)

[JohnGalt2341]

I challenged you again John! Lets see how I do this time (although my results have been pretty bad last games)

Let's do it!

I just took a look at your losses. You've had a pretty tough schedule. I would say Joshua is the weakest player that beat you but even Joshua is quite good. He won a small Reversi tourney in 2016 and a couple of 10x10 tourneys in the early 2000's and several anti-Reversi tourneys as well. Most of his losses in the ladder are against the top players including several of those losses to Toptal and myself.

I'm expecting another good one!

[JohnGalt2341]

Holden2341 vs DanielEspinosa 2 Preview

Holden2341 playing Green
Ladder record 707-26-2 Rank #5
Head to Head 1-0
Moneyline -1000
Spread -25.5

DanielEspinosa playing Purple
Ladder record 3-5 Rank #20
Head to Head 0-1
Moneyline +800
Spread +25.5

My analysis:
Daniel reminds me of the MMA fighter Mark Hunt. If all you do is look at his record you may think that he's mediocre at best. But then when you look at his opponents it starts to make sense. Daniel has already proven to me that he can play at a high level. I won't take him lightly in this game. I expect the first 3 rounds to be relatively close and then beyond move #24 I think my experience will be just too much for him.

The thing that scares me about Daniel is he plays with confidence. Players that play me too passively usually don't beat me too often and players that are too aggressive almost always lose. But there's a sweet spot in there that gives me fits. If you can pick your spots and know when to be aggressive and when to be passive then this should be a really close game.

My Prediction
Daniel taps out at move #36

Final
Holden2341 58
Daniel 32

[blankoblanco]

Looks like you're not finished just yet! Another unique and interesting game...

I'm pretty sure butterbean could've just tapped me out and completely taken over the board if she'd kept playing on the left side starting from move 13, right? That was my thought when I looked at it. But instead she opened up an unbalanced edge on the right side and has (maybe) let me back into the game

Would you say that's an accurate assessment? Just want to know if I'm seeing these positions correctly at all

[JohnGalt2341]

I'm pretty sure butterbean could've just tapped me out and completely taken over the board if she'd kept playing on the left side starting from move 13, right? That was my thought when I looked at it. But instead she opened up an unbalanced edge on the right side and has (maybe) let me back into the game

Would you say that's an accurate assessment? Just want to know if I'm seeing these positions correctly at all

Yeah, I would say you are exactly right. I think she could have done it a couple of different ways as well.
But it looks like you're going to match the 2002 Oakland A's.

If you've ever seen the movie Moneyball(a favorite of mine)... The guy Brad Pitt is playing.... Billy Beane, would be a hell of a good Hexversi player. Especially his sidekick "Pete". That guy would be a master!

[JohnGalt2341]

Here's how the final section of the tourney finished

Holden2341 (winner)	16	8	2.00
aragon	10	8	1.25
§Jon	8	8	1.00
§dmoresco	6	8	0.75
Eddie	0	8	0.00

I was surprised to see aragon sweep Jon. Other than that, no surprises. I think Eddie would have finished 2nd had he not timed out.

[Daniel Espinosa]

Congrats! So aragon is pretty good. In what place did Toptal and Ryan finish?

[blankoblanco]

Here's how the final section of the tourney finished

Holden2341 (winner)	16	8	2.00
aragon	10	8	1.25
§Jon	8	8	1.00
§dmoresco	6	8	0.75
Eddie	0	8	0.00

I was surprised to see aragon sweep Jon. Other than that, no surprises. I think Eddie would have finished 2nd had he not timed out.

I know I already kind of gave the premature congrats before, but now it's official! Very nice. Must feel pretty good to beat out that field of players in a tournament. You may make it look easy but it's definitely not. At least not for most of us mere mortals

I'm also surprised aragon did that well but I may just be biased because he had a bad game against me

[JohnGalt2341]

Congrats! So aragon is pretty good. In what place did Toptal and Ryan finish?

Thanks, yeah aragon is very good but they make mistakes on the sides and they often play too passively in the openings and mid-game.

Toptal was in my division in the first round and I swept him so he got knocked out. Ryan timed out in the first round so he got knocked out as well.

[blankoblanco]

Ha, I've also made things difficult for myself against Hugolin because I "experimented" with a move that I know is fundamentally bad and would make John sad (#18). I wanted to see if the spaces it gave me access to could make up for the moves and also if I'd eventually "get the moves back" anyway. There's probably just no way to make it worth it. But yeah, just as a disclaimer, I knew I was doing something that had at least a 90% chance to be terrible (it's probably 100 but I wasn't sure at the time) just wanted to see what would happen

[JohnGalt2341]

Ha, I've also made things difficult for myself against Hugolin because I "experimented" with a move that I know is fundamentally bad and would make John sad (#18). I wanted to see if the spaces it gave me access to could make up for the moves and also if I'd eventually "get the moves back" anyway. There's probably just no way to make it worth it. But yeah, just as a disclaimer, I knew I was doing something that had at least a 90% chance to be terrible (it's probably 100 but I wasn't sure at the time) just wanted to see what would happen

You're right... that move did make me sad... lol. But you're play up until that move was so dominant that you should be able to recover. It would be like being ahead in a football game 17-3 in the 2nd quarter and you are in their red zone with 1st and goal and you throw an interception and they run it back for a TD. It was really bad but... luckily you had that cushion.

This is a really interesting game now because of your bold move #24. You should be able to pull this one out but it looks like it's going to be really challenging now. My favorite games to win are usually in the games where I know I made a mistake but I still pull off the win. You've had quite a few games like that I believe. The more dominant you become over the average player you should be able to figure out how to better finish them off when you are completely dominating them like you were early in this game.

This is one thing I really like about Hexversi is... just about anyone can pull off an upset at any given time. I could play Magnus Carlsen 100 games of Chess or even 1000 games and I doubt I would ever even be able to get a draw let alone a win.

I'll be watching this one... I still can't decide if your move #24 was brilliant or just slightly too daring. I love games like this.

[blankoblanco]

The more dominant you become over the average player you should be able to figure out how to better finish them off when you are completely dominating them like you were early in this game.

Tbh, I knew exactly how to finish him off after move 17. The game was over. If I play the space just right of the bottom-right corner, and then I play one space away from that on the same right edge, he has to give me a corner, game is a snoozefest from there. I just don't really learn anything from stomping bad early games so I tried to spice it up. If it costs me a win, so be it. I'm more focused on improvement at this point and thought I might learn more this way. When you and I face off I definitely won't do stupid stuff like this (intentionally at least)

Yeah, move 24 is interesting. Given the situation I put myself in, I felt it was necessary to prevent that free/unpunishable move he would have had in the bottom right quadrant. But it definitely makes it harder for me to play on the top side. I may be reliant on him making a mistake, hard to tell

[JohnGalt2341]

Tbh, I knew exactly how to finish him off after move 17. The game was over. If I play the space just right of the bottom-right corner, and then I play one space away from that on the same right edge, he has to give me a corner, game is a snoozefest from there. I just don't really learn anything from stomping bad early games so I tried to spice it up. If it costs me a win, so be it. I'm more focused on improvement at this point and thought I might learn more this way. When you and I face off I definitely won't do stupid stuff like this (intentionally at least)

Yeah, move 24 is interesting. Given the situation I put myself in, I felt it was necessary to prevent that free/unpunishable move he would have had in the bottom right quadrant. But it definitely makes it harder for me to play on the top side. I may be reliant on him making a mistake, hard to tell

Yeah but... after his move #17 he took away your 2nd move. Unless I am not sure what you are talking about.

Sometimes games like this can be tricky... even when you are way ahead in positioning.

[blankoblanco]

Yeah but... after his move #17 he took away your 2nd move. Unless I am not sure what you are talking about.

Sometimes games like this can be tricky... even when you are way ahead in positioning.

https://imgur.com/a/P3pjCmB

I mean, I go A as green. He can't prevent anything on his turn, then I go B. Guaranteed corner

[JohnGalt2341]

https://imgur.com/a/P3pjCmB

I mean, I go A as green. He can't prevent anything on his turn, then I go B. Guaranteed corner

Oh okay gotcha. I was wondering if that's what you meant. In this situation I think you would definitely win like you said because you would be able to build off that corner and he's nearly out of moves. But in other similar situations you have to be careful when pulling this trick because if your opponent places moves elsewhere instead of that section... after your 2nd move if you take the corner your opponent can wedge in and take a corner for himself. But in your situation I don't think you would have to worry about that because you were beating him so badly.

[JohnGalt2341]

25 Point Hexversi Challenge

What's the best move for Purple? (2 good ones here I think... which did I pick?)

This was an interesting game vs Toptal. As you can see Purple doesn't really have any good places they can go. And Green has only one good move which is #4. All I have to do right now is gain a move and I should win the game. I took #4 and Green took the corner and then I took #5. I just gained a move and now he's done. I also could have taken #5 from the start and I think that would have worked as well.

[JohnGalt2341]

25 Point Hexversi Challenge

What's the best move for Green? (There are a few good moves here... which one did I pick?)

I chose move #11. #13 would have worked as well but I felt #11 was more efficient. Right now Purple doesn't have a lot of good moves but one of those good moves is #12. By going to #11 I take away their good move and now they have to move again. I'm always looking for these types of moves in really close games. Sometimes their is a great move like this for both players and it's just a matter of who takes it first.

[JohnGalt2341]

I didn't quite get 90 vs Freddo but I did manage to get 88. I'm pretty sure this is the closest I've ever gotten to 90. Had I played move #33 differently I think I could have gotten 90. Oh well...

[blankoblanco]

Wow, that's incredible! And still a shut out at least. Very nice

It looked dicey for a bit but I regained control vs Hugolin. I'll probably tone down the "experimenting" in the future... that move 18 was a bridge too far! I guess some rules just aren't meant to be broken. The risky 24 panned out well though

[JohnGalt2341]

Wow, that's incredible! And still a shut out at least. Very nice

It looked dicey for a bit but I regained control vs Hugolin. I'll probably tone down the "experimenting" in the future... that move 18 was a bridge too far! I guess some rules just aren't meant to be broken. The risky 24 panned out well though

Nice work on the Hugo game! I just reviewed the entire game and aside from move #18 you played quite brilliantly. I was particularly impressed by your side-play. Whenever I'm judging how good I think someone is at Hexversi I am always putting a ton of emphasis on how well they play the sides. The sides are the hardest part to learn but if you can learn how to play the sides correctly it's going to give you a huge advantage over just about everyone. Even Toptal and Ryan make fairly frequent mistakes on the sides. I make mistakes on the sides as well but not nearly as often as most players. Man... I think you're ready for Ryan and maybe even Toptal.

[blankoblanco]

Thanks man! Feels good to hear because side-play is where the game gets the most fun and interesting for me. I feel like I'm able to actually logic things out and solve the puzzle (heavily aided by the stuff I've learned from this thread of course). Early game still just seems so abstract. "Try to give your opponent as few moves as possible" sounds simple enough, but it gets complicated when a single move might open up 6 more

I've studied some of your early games and maybe half the moves make sense to me and the other half I'm not sure why it's better than move x. Wish I knew how to improve there. Practice would help if I could identify my own mistakes, but not as much when I don't always know what I'm doing right or wrong. I think I only tend to get way ahead early when my opponent is making big mistakes and not so much because of something I did

[JohnGalt2341]

Thanks man! Feels good to hear because side-play is where the game gets the most fun and interesting for me. I feel like I'm able to actually logic things out and solve the puzzle (heavily aided by the stuff I've learned from this thread of course). Early game still just seems so abstract. "Try to give your opponent as few moves as possible" sounds simple enough, but it gets complicated when a single move might open up 6 more

I've studied some of your early games and maybe half the moves make sense to me and the other half I'm not sure why it's better than move x. Wish I knew how to improve there. Practice would help if I could identify my own mistakes, but not as much when I don't always know what I'm doing right or wrong. I think I only tend to get way ahead early when my opponent is making big mistakes and not so much because of something I did

This is a really interesting phenomenon to me because as you mentioned in a different post that this thread is probably the single best source for Hexversi strategy on the internet. And I do believe you are correct. If players like Mr. Bruno ever read this thread I think his play could improve dramatically. Hexversi is one of the few things I can think of where you are almost entirely dependent on yourself to improve. Of course, reading a book such as "A Minute to Learn.. A lifetime to Master" about Othello strategy would probably help but for Hexversi you're sort of on your own. And because of this it is extremely difficult to learn from your mistakes because it's hard to identify them which is why I expect people to keep making the same mistakes over and over and they almost always do. I often want to tell people where they are making mistakes but I don't want to come off as a pompous jackass either. Hopefully you guys don't mind... lol.

So... in my current game vs Daniel well... he caught me in one of my better games. I was able to set up a lot of things and really take advantage of his lack of experience in some fairly high level side-play. He made a lot of common mistakes that I usually set people up to make. This is how I win the majority of my games. If the sides were played correctly the games would be extremely close. I know of at least 4 examples in this game where the sides were played incorrectly. I'll post 1 at a time and make it 25 point challenges.

This is no offense to you Daniel, I was just on my game in this one. These are very common mistakes that I always see people make on the sides. I will attempt to explain why I consider them to be mistakes. Hopefully these next few will be the best learning tools yet.

[JohnGalt2341]

25 Point Hexversi Challenge

What's the best move for Purple?

I should note that the answer to this may or may not be a side. It could be that he played a side incorrectly or he didn't play a side when he should have.

[blankoblanco]

This is probably dead wrong, but I'll say 8. It just looks compelling to me and instantly shuts off a decent amount of green's moves. The thing is I'm not really sure how it shakes out in the long run, which is of course what matters

I assume we don't want to opt into a situation where we have to either lose a move or create an unbalanced edge. That's why I'm wary of this move, because I imagine green could accomplish that eventually

7 also looked interesting because green can't immediately follow up with 8 or 9. Again, seems like things could get complicated later on though

Mostly just curious what the answer is. I should've specified I think I'm decent at endgame side-play when the board is less open. Earlier on I'm sure I put myself in precarious positions that better players like John would exploit

[Daniel Espinosa]

No offesne taken, obviously I have played terrible. Maybe you can get 90 points in this game .

I remember feeling I was getting owned at that point in the game (although maybe Im wrong? It doesnt look that bad). I took 4, which is probably a mistake but Im not sure why. I will say 7, because as blanko said, you cant take 8 or 9 inmediately.

[JohnGalt2341]

No offesne taken, obviously I have played terrible. Maybe you can get 90 points in this game .

I remember feeling I was getting owned at that point in the game (although maybe Im wrong? It doesnt look that bad). I took 4, which is probably a mistake but Im not sure why. I will say 7, because as blanko said, you cant take 8 or 9 inmediately.

Exactly right. Let me see if i can explain this... the move I made on move 13 was risky for me. And the reason it's risky is because Purple can gain a move if they play it correctly. If Purple takes #7, they should be able to take #8 on the very next move. No matter how Green plays it Purple should be able to gain at least 1 move out of this. But it is paramount that Purple move to #7 before Green moves to the spot just under #12. The reason why it's important is because if Green moves into the spot under #12 before Purple takes #7 then #7 is no longer a terrific move. The reason for this is... if Purple takes #7 after Green takes the spot just below #12... then Green would just move in #9. This way, the side would be split 1 move each. But if Green takes #7 now, Green can get 2 moves and Purple will likely get 1. Make sense?

Often times it only takes one or 2 exchanges like this and you can completely take over a game.

[Daniel Espinosa]

Yeah I later took 7 but it was too late

[JohnGalt2341]

25 Point Hexversi Challenge

Once there is action near a side and moves become available to both players there are always moves that should or shouldn't be made. To me, this is really the crux of the game because if you can learn how to play this well you should be able to beat almost all of the other players. Most of this comes down to either unbalanced edges or move count(efficiency). As crazy as I am for creating unbalanced edges there are some that are much easier to exploit than others.

Purple moved to the X, why is this not the optimal move?

[blankoblanco]

This might not be as precise of an answer as you're looking for, but x isn't really good here for purple because green can take the space above it and be fine with the unbalanced edge since there's no wedge spot for purple to take advantage of. Green can easily just avoid playing there until the edge is balanced or a corner is filled

[Daniel Espinosa]

I actually have no clue in this one.

[JohnGalt2341]

I actually have no clue in this one.

When the board starts to fill up but the sides haven't been played yet there are moves on the side that are acceptable and then there are moves that are not good. If you can learn what moves are not good and WHY they are not good... you should be able to beat just about anyone else in the ladder.

For the board in post #483 Purple made a move that was "not good". Here's why. in this position there is only 1 acceptable move for Purple on that upper right side. That move is the spot just above the X. It's not available at the moment but because it is your only acceptable move on that side you have to wait until you can make it available. The reason why Purple's move is not good is because Green got 2 moves on that side and Purple only got 1. That means Green gained a move on that side. Generally, it's only worth it if you can create an easily exploitable unbalanced edge.

The potential for Green to have an unbalanced edge is not worth it here for Purple. Because it's just too damn hard to create. Even if you do get it you're going to lose at least 2 moves in the process. It's not worth it. You are far better off waiting for the spot just above the X. If you can get that spot you'll essentially get your move back and the upper right wall will now have one move for Green and One for Purple. Green will still have outplayed Purple on that side because of the positioning but only slightly now. That spot above the X is sort of like a free move for Purple right now, Green can't move there. Purple just has to be patient and earn that move. Once Purple earns the move and moves there Green will now have to act and this might possibly be enough for Purple to work his way back into the game.

I'm not sure if any of this made sense or not.

A new Open Tourney is starting up on Tuesday July 14th. I haven't done any recruiting yet but I plan to tomorrow. I hope you guys will join the tourney. I'm going to start a separate thread about it tomorrow I think. I plan to have the same format for winning the 500... most games won and if there is a tie we'll have a playoff. I plan to do the division winner picks a little bit different. Anyway... thought I'd give you guys a heads up. I'm hoping to get more people playing this time.

[blankoblanco]

Makes sense to me. I sort of got a tiny part of it before but not the bigger picture

If the wedge spot is filled in from green (so we can more easily exploit the unbalanced edge), does x become the right move then? Or is it still better to wait to get the spot above?

Looking forward to the next tournament, should be fun, just hope I don't get a group of death right off the bat

[JohnGalt2341]

Makes sense to me. I sort of got a tiny part of it before but not the bigger picture

If the wedge spot is filled in from green (so we can more easily exploit the unbalanced edge), does x become the right move then? Or is it still better to wait to get the spot above?

Looking forward to the next tournament, should be fun, just hope I don't get a group of death right off the bat

That's a good question. I think it mostly depends on the circumstance. In most cases I grab the other spot for myself because I value extra moves so much. But I wouldn't say I do this 100% of the time. If you can get back to back unbalanced edges now it becomes twice as valuable. And there are other circumstances where I would try to force the unbalanced edge but I think most of the time I grab the spot for myself.

In the first round of the last tourney there was a circumstance where Toptal could have grabbed a spot for himself but he decided to try to force an unbalanced edge. I took it because in this circumstance I had what I call an "unbalanced 6" meaning all 6 pieces are mine. Because of this, it can only be attacked from one angle which makes it much harder to exploit. I don't know if that move cost him the game but I am nearly certain that it didn't help him. This is because when he forced the unbalanced edge he created a move for me. We each got 1 move in the sequence. But if he just grabbed the other spot for himself it would be 1 move for him and 0 for me in the sequence. All he got out of the deal was an unbalanced edge for me that is very difficult to exploit. It would have only been worth it for him in my opinion is if he would have forced me into an unbalanced that was very easy to exploit. But his move was essentially worthless because he couldn't exploit the unbalanced edge. He would have been far off just grabbing the spot for himself in my opinion.

I was just thinking... if you draw an easy 1st round I think you'll likely be a serious threat in these 2nd round games. I like your chances. Especially since I feel like you are still learning. Daniel too!

I still have a couple of more side-play examples to do in my game vs Daniel. This game is a really fantastic learning tool because these mistakes are so common but they are all slightly different. I'll try to have the other examples in this thread before the start of the next tourney. Side-play is the #1 weakness for most players. There are so many subtle things that make such a big difference. Especially when you do them consistently you can see what a big difference they make against strong players.

[Daniel Espinosa]

Yeah makes sense. I kinda knew the unbalanced edge would be hard to exploit, but still went for it because I didnt know any better.

Nice to hear about the tournament!

[JohnGalt2341]

25 Point Hexversi Challenge

The best move here is debatable but I wanted to show an example of this type of move because I'm not sure if I ever talked about it before. So... where do you think I(Green) moved?