God does not exist

[MrX]

'X', the sacrifice is great for many reasons. Jesus, while on earth, felt things as a man feels them. He was tortured and suffered a death that would be unimaginable to most. What makes it even more amazing, however, is that He had the ability to stop the suffering at the hands of His creation at any time, but knew if He did He would, in effect, be dooming us to our own sins.

Millions of people suffer greatly and die agonizing deaths. It seems like all he did was have his son experience what many of his creation were already experiencing. Only Jesus had concrete knowledge of the afterlife (not a minor point, there), not to mention some nice perks like the ability to walk on water and duplicate fish.

[The HG]

Timothy 2:11 - - - A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Dude is this really from the Bible??

I TOTALLY TOTALLY agree with this. FULL SUBMISSION. This is very clear. A woman must SHUT HER PIEHOLE at all times!

Why does anyone have a problem with this?

[HedgeHog]

Simply depends on whether you believe or not. God sent Jesus down to Earth to die on the Cross. That was his destination from immaculate conception. That's the point, Jesus went through the pain so others wont have to. He took MY place in torture. At least that is what Christians believe. If God had saved him (which he could have at any time, in fact Jesus could have taken himself down from the cross at any time and killed every soldier there mocking him instead of praying for them), there would have been no sacrifice. Every person would have then been accountable for there sins. As it stands now he did in fact go through with the torture for those who accept.

Again these are Christian beliefs, just answering your question from a Christian point of view.

But you bring up another theological question or two. Those that lived before Christ are denied heaven because they had no one to die for their sins at that time? Likewise, those that belong to non-Christian faiths are denied access to the Pearly Gates regardless of their deeds on Earth?

Thanks WO, but you're preaching to the choir. I am a believer and as such, realize that God's plan is different than man's.

[moneyline]

Millions of people do not have the power to stop their suffering whenever they choose. How many of them would continue to suffer agonizing deaths if they could stop the pain immediately, especially when they are suffering for people, many of which will not even believe in the person's existence after his death?

Start ripping off your fingernails, one by one. Know you can stop at anytime, but keep going anyway. Do it for people, many of which don't even acknowledge your existence or, even better, openly mock you.

(and you still won't even be close to what Jesus suffered)

[MrX]

Millions of people do not have the power to stop their suffering whenever they choose. How many of them would continue to suffer agonizing deaths if they could stop the pain immediately, especially when they are suffering for people, many of which will not even believe in the person's existence after his death?

Start ripping off your fingernails, one by one. Know you can stop at anytime, but keep going anyway. Do it for people, many of which don't even acknowledge your existence or, even better, openly mock you.

(and you still won't even be close to what Jesus suffered)

You're missing my point. Doesn't it seem a bit strange for an all-powerful God to allow millions of his creation to experience horrific agony, and then when he allows his own Son to experience it, knowing that he'll soon be back in heaven, we're supposed to be all amazed and grateful?

[moneyline]

I understand your point, but I believe you are missing the larger one. You see, we all were born under original sin and have been given free will by God. We are all sinners. Suffering is a by-product of humanity's own actions. And very few of us suffer purposely for others. Jesus did.

Also, Jesus was without sin. He was perfect. And yet He still suffered. That makes it very different than any person here on earth. Along with the other reasons I have already mentioned.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

You decide:

My girl's father got into a motorcycle accident last Friday. An 18-wheeler ran a red light and plowed into him on his bike. He wasn't wearing a helmet and his most significant injuries wound up being a shattered wrist and leg. Miracle? Me thinks so.

He had (guessing) a 10% chance, and was one of the 10%. Just as -1000 shots lose fairly regularly, people get lucky in accidents.

There's also a logical follow-on to this. Were the other 90% undeserving? Surely if you praise an invisible being for saving one, equally it must be blamed for killing the rest?

[HeeeHAWWWW]

I understand your point, but I believe you are missing the larger one. You see, we all were born under original sin and have been given free will by God. We are all sinners. Suffering is a by-product of humanity's own actions. And very few of us suffer purposely for others. Jesus did.

Also, Jesus was without sin. He was perfect. And yet He still suffered. That makes it very different than any person here on earth. Along with the other reasons I have already mentioned.

Got any proof for any of this?

[WileOut]

Oh, trust me, I understand fully how interpretations work. My question to you is which interpretation is correct? Or is any interpretation correct? Or are they all wrong, except for yours naturally?

What about the Corinthians verse, is that also just dealing with a husband protecting his wife?

How about this one, another that should just be taken to mean the husband protects the wife?

Timothy 2:11 - - - A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Edit: Remember at the time, it was accepted in almost every culture across the world that women were submissive to men. Islam still practices this today for the most part.

First of all these were not God's or Jesus' words.

Reading the entire section here and not just this one verse, the author is speaking about how it was Eve and not Adam that was deceived so therefore the woman should be submissive (Eve being falling into temptation was a big thing at the time and women were blamed for the fall of paradise on earth for a long time).

Since this was written a lot of time has passed and I believe men have stopped punishing women for the transgression of eve

I have no problem with women Mr. Bee. I also dont know what is fully meant by the verses you read. What I do know is that neither you nor I know completely the circumstances surrounding what is said in this book of 1 Timothy. It is a question you would need to ask a preacher if you want a good answer. Or look for it on the internet. What I can guarantee you is that there is a perfectly good explanation for it. The Bible is perfect afterall

I steer you to a preacher for the answers you seek Willie. Just like I would steer you to a dentist for answers to why you may be having a tooth ache.

[HedgeHog]

I think we should be steered to a proctologist, because these unending God threads are a pain in the ass.

[pavyracer]

Never trust religious people who can't laugh at themselves.

It was a baseball thread.

At least someone got the joke and realized this is a baseball thread and not the ecumenical council of christianity at Nicaea.

[MrX]

This isn't a grammar thread?

[WileOut]

Ohhhhhhhh my head hurts, mercy Willie Bee, have mercy sir!

[moneyline]

HeeHaw, you'd like proof? Well, there are very few religions who doubt the existence of Jesus Christ. Very few people who disbelieve His existence, actually. And virtually each individual, to a man or woman, believes He was, at the very least a prophet and a good person.

It is also widely accepted He said He was the son of God. Which leaves this very good man as either crazy, a liar or telling the truth. There is no fourth option.

Do you have any proof that Alexander the Great existed, other than the history books? Please bring whatever eyewitnesses you have to the forefront immediately.

[pavyracer]

HeeHaw, you'd like proof? Well, there are very few religions who doubt the existence of Jesus Christ. Very few people who disbelieve His existence, actually. And virtually each individual, to a man or woman, believes He was, at the very least a prophet and a good person.

It is also widely accepted He said He was the son of God. Which leaves this very good man as either crazy, a liar or telling the truth. There is no fourth option.

Do you have any proof that Alexander the Great existed, other than the history books? Please bring whatever eyewitnesses you have to the forefront immediately.

The fact that there are hundreds of cities in the world named Alexandria proves that Alexander the Great existed. How many cities are named Jesusia? None!

Here is you proof.

[Shark79]

The fact that there are hundreds of cities in the world named Alexandria proves that Alexander the Great existed. How many cities are named Jesusia? None!

Here is you proof.

U just cant be serious ...

[HedgeHog]

The fact that there are hundreds of cities in the world named Alexandria proves that Alexander the Great existed. How many cities are named Jesusia? None!

Here is you proof.

How many Hispanic men are named Jesus? Is that proof?

[Shark79]

Its a catchy name

[Willie Bee]

First of all these were not God's or Jesus' words.

Aren't they all? I mean, ultimately they are all the words of someone besides God or Jesus, except for those in which Jesus may be quoted I would reckon. And all of the words first passed through the eyes, minds and pen strokes of an editor. Never underestimate the power of an editor

And ultimately, all of the words in the Bible were judged by someone in order to 'make the cut' in the finished product. How many books were left on the cutting room floor, something like 27 I believe, though I could be wrong on that number.

Like you said, these were the interpretations of many over time, and a lot of time has passed since they were laid down as the law. They are no more perfect than the men who interpreted them, and as you've already noted, no man is perfect, indeed, no man needs to be perfect.

So how do you interpret heaven, WileOut? Do only Christians get in, true believers of Jesus Christ? Do you follow the beliefs of Rev. Hagee who offers up a dual covenant theology that those of the Jewish faith do not need "to go through Christ or the Cross" to get to heaven? Do you follow the prophecy noted in Revelations that only Christians and 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the Children of Isreal, reach heaven? Does God also allow Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, even Agnostics to ascend to the heareafter?

[moneyline]

No man needs to be perfect because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ ...

(you forgot the most important part of the sentence, Bee)

[pavyracer]

What sacrifice? It's a known fact amongst non-believers that Jesus didn't die on the cross. He passed out and his followers bribed the roman guards to take him down and fake the burial and removal of him from the tomb.

The rest is what the bible says which was written by his followers.

[HedgeHog]

What sacrifice? It's a known fact amongst non-believers that Jesus didn't die on the cross. He passed out and his followers bribed the roman guards to take him down and fake the burial and removal of him from the tomb.

The rest is what the bible says which was written by his followers.

Wow, talk about fairy tales! Is this still a Baseball thread, Pavy.

[pavyracer]

Wow, talk about fairy tales! Is this still a Baseball thread, Pavy.

I specifically said non-believers. You are excluded, right? Next time highlight all my statements not what suits you, OK?

[HedgeHog]

Ok. But to not believe in God, yet believe in the Son of God. Do you see the contradiction?

Come over to our side Pavy; walk towards the light.

[moneyline]

Pavy knows there is a God and that Jesus is His son ... Pavy is conflicted ... he is tired of thinking he is the alpha and omega of the universe ... and that he is in control of everything that happens to him.

Pavy, much greater men than you have been lost and found themselves through the word of the Lord. God loves you so much He allows you to question and even ridicule Him incessantly, and yet still holds open the opportunity for you to know Him until your death.

Good luck in your search.

[The HG]

moneyline, I know being gay and also having sex with a woman before marriage is out if you are a Christian.

What about playing with yourself? Is that completely out?

[HedgeHog]

moneyline, I know being gay and also having sex with a woman before marriage is out if you are a Christian.

What about playing with yourself? Is that completely out?

He's a forgiving God. You're absolved from your sin. Say 10 Hail Mary's and go back to typing with two hands, HG.

[WileOut]

Aren't they all? I mean, ultimately they are all the words of someone besides God or Jesus, except for those in which Jesus may be quoted I would reckon. And all of the words first passed through the eyes, minds and pen strokes of an editor. Never underestimate the power of an editor

And ultimately, all of the words in the Bible were judged by someone in order to 'make the cut' in the finished product. How many books were left on the cutting room floor, something like 27 I believe, though I could be wrong on that number.

Like you said, these were the interpretations of many over time, and a lot of time has passed since they were laid down as the law. They are no more perfect than the men who interpreted them, and as you've already noted, no man is perfect, indeed, no man needs to be perfect.

So how do you interpret heaven, WileOut? Do only Christians get in, true believers of Jesus Christ? Do you follow the beliefs of Rev. Hagee who offers up a dual covenant theology that those of the Jewish faith do not need "to go through Christ or the Cross" to get to heaven? Do you follow the prophecy noted in Revelations that only Christians and 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the Children of Isreal, reach heaven? Does God also allow Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, even Agnostics to ascend to the heareafter?

I believe the Bible to be a perfect collection of books that is devinely inspired by God himself. The books that were left out of the Bible were left out for a reason and God had a hand in that.

What I was referring to was that 1 Timothy is in the new testament and all of Jesus' quotes are in red in the new testament. The words we were referring to were the words of Paul I believe.

I believe that I need to believe in Jesus to get into heaven. However God made it very clear that a man must be very careful in judging people or predicting who gets into heaven and who doesnt. So I'm not going to sit here and say who I know wont get into heaven. Because that is up to God himself. I am just a man, I can only do what I think is right. I let God determine who gets into heaven.

The reason I am so vague about this (I use to say cut and dry you have to believe in Jesus, and if not you go to hell) is because of a very wise old preacher that use to be on at 5am or so. He was a pastor in Arkansas and had an hour long show. He knew the original languages the guys spoke in the Bible, Hebrew and Greek. He knew the interpretations, everything. Its amazing how some english words and sentences in the Bible mean nothing close to what you think they mean.

Anyway, he said that there were people writing in telling him about how the indians were going to hell because they didnt believe in Jesus and he was upset about these emails. He said that it wasnt our call on the Indians, that they worshipped a spirit and who are we to say that the spirit they worshipped wasn't the Holy Ghost himself (aka Jesus aka The Father)? He said that you better walk a thin line and don't judge other people's beliefs. That God will not tolerate it. So therefore I'm not going to sit here and call people out and tell them they are going to hell. I just say my piece about Jesus and what I believe and others can do as they want.

[pavyracer]

Question to Christians: Since Jesus hang with the lowlifes and said if someone slaps you on the left chick you should offer the right chick for him to slap (The HG, don't even go there) why do most Bible states endorse death penalty which is against Jesus preachings.

[moneyline]

They are wrong. In this instance, they allow the Old Testament to dictate over the New, and that is wrong. Only God can create life and it is not our job, whether it be through the death penalty, abortion, euthenasia or suicide, to take life ...

[Willie Bee]

No man needs to be perfect because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ ...

(you forgot the most important part of the sentence, Bee)

Actually, I didn't forget anything moneyline. You simply chose instead to put your words into my mouth. I'd have gotten back to you sooner on that but I had to start a fire to grill some hot dogs. Ironically, they were Hebrew National wieners. Was grilling some up for my godson and his little buddy to eat while we watched some of the pre-game show for tonight's All-Star Game.

The reason I am so vague about this (I use to say cut and dry you have to believe in Jesus, and if not you go to hell) is because of a very wise old preacher that use to be on at 5am or so. He was a pastor in Arkansas and had an hour long show. He knew the original languages the guys spoke in the Bible, Hebrew and Greek. He knew the interpretations, everything. Its amazing how some english words and sentences in the Bible mean nothing close to what you think they mean.

Anyway, he said that there were people writing in telling him about how the indians were going to hell because they didnt believe in Jesus and he was upset about these emails. He said that it wasnt our call on the Indians, that they worshipped a spirit and who are we to say that the spirit they worshipped wasn't the Holy Ghost himself (aka Jesus aka The Father)? He said that you better walk a thin line and don't judge other people's beliefs. That God will not tolerate it. So therefore I'm not going to sit here and call people out and tell them they are going to hell. I just say my piece about Jesus and what I believe and others can do as they want.

So wait, you're telling me this preacher in Arkansas could understand, speak and interpret the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages as they were spoken in the original writings, but he wasn't quite sure what American Indians might have been saying or exactly who they may have been worshipping?

In the end, WileOut, I believe you are fairly tolerant of others and their beliefs, and on that we can reach accord.

[moneyline]

The biggest disservice any Christian can do for a non-believer is agreeing with them that they will be saved, regardless of what they believe or whether or not they acknowlege Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

It'll make the Christian more popular during their lifetime, but won't do anything for the individual who chooses not to believe and, therefore, ends up without God upon death.

(just like the best line in The Usual Suspects -- the best trick the devil ever pulled is convincing the world he doesn't exist)

[pavyracer]

You must be out of your mind thinking that God will not welcome with open arms in heaven any good Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or Atheists.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Yawn. The Bible was written by humans, often centuries after the event, edited out of sight, retranslated to the nth degree repeatedly.

Regardless if there ever was anything in it originally, clearly what's there now is just pure gibberish.

[WileOut]

In the end, WileOut, I believe you are fairly tolerant of others and their beliefs, and on that we can reach accord.

All-Star Time!