agree with ganchrow here...I think asking for an ID is OK, even though if you fund your account via neteller, I don't think it's necessary...but I think asking for any type of neteller/ bank statement is completely unecessary...
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Originally posted by natrass
MetraDynamix made some good points.
No, a person should not have to provide banking details if he/she chose to deposit with Neteller. Players choose to use the transfer methods that require information they feel confortable providing. A book that utilizes Neteller puts its trust in its security measures.
However, I don't think this is what BetMaker is asking for.
Sarah: Sir, your account has been block due to suspicious plays on the poker. To unblock your account, we would require a official picture ID and a prove of your deposits, example: copy of your bank statement or so
The bank statement can be provided without sensitive information. It's used as a 2nd form of ID verification. A utility bill can also serve this purpose. In this case the clerk may have overlooked it was a Neteller deposit. In most cases, one picture ID with a Neteller account should be enough.
BetMaker and Americas Cardroom are looking at this as chip dumping and it will likely come down to the account activity.Comment -
If a bank statement is requested, that is not a big deal. Simply black out the parts that do not pertain to the information being requested. Really this is only a concern if you are engaging in some kind of fraudulent activity. You do not need to show them the full account number. You do not need to show them the balance. You do not need to show them any transactions but the ones in question. It is a symbiotic relationship you are engaging in when you play online. Sometimes the institutions need to make sure you are who you say you are. Don't be so defensive unless you have something you need to cover up.Comment -
Am amazed they would even take a bank statement. Seems very easy to manipulate or create fraudulently as all are different and none have photo ID on them. At least a credit card has raised numbers that would make it difficult to fabricate.Comment -
“Betmaker probably wants to see how the Neteller account was funded. If it was a peer-to-peer transfer they would be able to see if the email addresses match any of the other poker accounts.”
This statement from Bill caught my eye and has gotten me thinking. Regardless of whether this is precisely what’s going on, it’s still interesting to consider it as a hypothetical, and to think about the implications.
So Player A and Player B have played at the same poker table several times at, say, Pokerstars. There’s certainly no conclusive proof that they are engaged in some kind of collusion or chip dumping or any other practice that a poker site would actively try to prevent, but there’s enough in their pattern of play to at least raise suspicions.
So Pokerstars freezes one or both accounts and puts conditions on the players ever seeing their money again. They insist that, for one thing, they must receive the player’s Neteller account records for the past three months.
If the Neteller account of Player A shows that he received a peer-to-peer transfer from Player B, then that’s a big, big piece of evidence against them. These are people who know each other, and in fact know each other well enough to be transferring money one to the other. Now they’re seated at the same onlike poker table and have interacted in ways that seem at least somewhat indicative of collusion? I’d say they’re in big trouble.
And if they instead refuse to produce the Neteller records, it would seem they have something to hide.
Meanwhile, Party Poker has some concerns—again nothing blatant or provable—about the play of Player C and Player D. They freeze the accounts. But they don’t want Neteller records; they want phone records of every incoming and outgoing phone call from the number you have on record with them, and any other number they’ve been able to attribute to you through their investigation.
Obviously if the phone records show calls between Player C and Player D, then that is evidence that they know each other. If any of the calls occurred during the time they were on the same table, well, that’s pretty damning.
And again, failure to provide the phone records is treated as admission of guilt.
Then it turns out BetOnSports insists on all your bank records from the last month, including all cancelled checks, or they will confiscate your account. They suspect that you violated a rule in a recent promotion that offered a high free play bonus but with the condition that it not be used to bet both sides of the same game to insure a win. If they find among your records a check from someone for the amount of the free play, and that someone just happens to be another customer of theirs that just happened to use his free play to bet the opposite side of what you bet, and he won and you lost, you can both say goodbye to whatever money you might still have on account at BetOnSports.
The next day, Intertops contacts you to let you know you’re under suspicion of working with confederates to circumvent their betting limits. They want phone records, proof of residence for the last five years, bank records, Neteller records, and more. If they find you are related to, have ever lived with, spoken by phone with, e-mailed with, or had any financial transactions with any other Intertops customer, and they then find that there were any games wherein you and that customer both placed wagers that cumulatively would have gone over the maximum wager allowed per customer, they will void those bets (if they won).
I think you see where this is headed. Quite naturally, if poker sites and sportsbooks had access to whatever personal information they wanted about their customers, the opportunities for scamming, colluding, breaking rules, etc. would be drastically reduced. The people “with nothing to hide” would be given a clean bill of health by any such investigation and would not have their accounts confiscated, while those who had engaged in some kind of skullduggery would get caught, and would have to go to much greater lengths to conceal their activity in the future to circumvent such countermeasures (which would likely result in most of them giving up scamming as now too difficult to bother with).
But is this what we want? How far are you comfortable with letting this go? Does a sportsbook have a right to see who you’ve done peer-to-peer Neteller transfers with? Does a poker site have a right to see who you’ve been on the phone with? Does a sportsbook have the right to know everyone you are related to? I’m curious about people’s opinions.Comment -
great thread...Comment -
Good point and well made, TLD.Originally posted by TLD
However, the fact is that a small minority of poker players spoil the party for the rest of the players. Would you be willing for a poker room to put up requests for information like you pointed out in return for a poker site which is free of cheats? Assuming that they only catch the cheats (OK, that might be a big assumption) then the fair majority have nothing to fear and it makes for a better gaming environment.
It's like a breathalyser test when you're driving. I don't drive when I'm over the limit but I have no problem in being inconvenienced by being tested at random to prevent other people doing it or offenders being caught. As long as they don't fabricate evidence of me being drunk when I'm not then I'm happy to play by those rules.
It's a double-edged sword for the poker rooms. If they let the cheats run riot, people won't play there. If they restrict players to a high degree then they won't play there either.Originally posted by pags11Originally posted by BuddyBearOriginally posted by curiousComment -
I mean the guy is a suspect, not guilty. So why dont just send the requested documents and be "released" if everything is ok. I wish some bookie found my activities fraudlent, cause now im only losing at poker and nobody cares about me
But I sent bankstatment to different sportsbooks and other parties, the last one was Click2pay. To bad they see all my porn subscriptions plus lapdance bar bills, but I guess i live with it.
The thing is if it was a scam and fraud sportsbook, they would not need a lot to scam you, perhaps only what you already provided (neteller account nr).
I stand by what I said, your just suspected..and I also suspected you after that conversation. But until that, your not guilty in my eyes. So clean your name and provide some documents.
Regarding banks they are always xtremly sceptical, especially to the gambling business. That is perhaps good, but they would not be able to seperate between Richcoast and Pinnacle if you asked themComment -
Anybody can be accused of anything. I only played a couple of times on their poker room and i lost. So how can I commit a fraud. You mean to say If they want a valuable information from you you have to follow them or else they will confiscate your money even if you have done nothing wrong. If their poker software is so poor that they can't stop those people who are cheating then they shouldn't have POKER ROOMS at all. That's why I stopped playing there because their POKER ROOM are not sophisticated. I have been playing POKER at BODOG and no problem at all. I think there are a lot of cheaters at BETMAKER because I lost money there. One more thing How can you cheat on POKER?Comment -
Sorry, but for me you look like a suspect one. When you ask how you cheat, it sounds for me you PRETEND to be stupid...Listen man, they have strong reasons to believe you commited fraud. If I was you, I would have provided the documents. If you feel so unsafe, close your account afterwards with the bank and open a new one. This is about your name and reputation, not anything else. So I would have done alot to prove my innocence. By screaming at a forum so soon you only look more suspect in my eyes. I know it can be a hassle to open a new bankaccount if your relationship with the bank is ok. But Im sure the bank will understand you if you tell them why you are sending the documents and why you need a new bankaccount. The bank, if they trust you, will be more than happy to help you if you say you want to prove you are innocent. Its a long way to go, but so so worth it.Comment -
Although I'd hate to supply bank information...I'd do it to get my money back. Then close the account if you hate their practices and stick with the A books in the future to stay on the safe side( although you're dealing with a reputable B book)Comment -
I've told you before, you should keep this off the forums. Acting as a total innocent makes you look even more guilty. It's bleedin' obvious how to cheat at poker. I don't play poker online but I know how to cheat. I bet the majority of non-poker players here know how to cheat as well.Originally posted by siopow
But I doubt there's anyone who plays online poker with any regularity who is that innocent. And if they were, they really shouldn't be let loose on a poker table.Originally posted by pags11Originally posted by BuddyBearOriginally posted by curiousComment -
Originally posted by tacomax
agreed on all accountsComment -
I'm being sarcastic when I said "How can you cheat in POKER". It's a POKER game where anybody can do whatever they want. You can bluff, you can fold even with the best hand by mistake. Everyone in POKER is free to do whatever they want. So if there is cheating in POKER like swithing cards or exchanging cards then we are talking live games not online games. If there is cheating on online POKER then everyone shouldn't be playing POKER online. TACOMAX expalin to me how you can cheat online. Maybe your the one that cheats and you should be banned here. You obviously work for BETMAKER.Comment -
chip dumping is obviously the biggest threat of cheating in online poker.Comment -
You are a big big fool..and the way you end that post with accusing him of working for Betmaker, convince me that you are talking shit. My experience with forums is that often when people is hiding a fact in a case against a sportsbook, they tend to accuse others to work for the sportsbook when they feel the pressure.Originally posted by siopowComment -
Just because I know how to do something doesn't mean that I've ever done it. For instance, I know exactly how to shag Keira Knightley but I've not yet had the pleasure.Originally posted by siopow
The more you post, siopow, the bigger the hole you're digging.Originally posted by pags11Originally posted by BuddyBearOriginally posted by curiousComment -
I'm going to take the player's side here.
If they can prove he was chip dumping, by all means show him the evidence and let him defend himself. Just because the book needs his bank statements to help them make their case does not give them a right to it. The book does not have subpeona power here.
Players should not be forced to disclose either their bank statements or their Neteller statements. If a player wanted to volunteer that information as a defense, that's his perogative.
In the meantime, the book has not put forth any evidence of the allegations. And the burden is on them.Comment -
Well chip dumping will only work on a tournament. But other than that chip dumping will not benefit any player.Comment -
Why should they present their evidence to possible cheater? That can just be used against them. And I suspect that is why the player does not want to present them either, as everything from now on can be used against him. This case will need a 3rd party, lets hope Bill can solve this and present the truth.Comment -
I have seen many chip dumping cases where a book try to confiscate(rob) player's money. But at the end the book loses chip dumping case because they can't provide evidence.Comment -
How suprising a new player signed up with the name chipdumping using the term "rob" about a sportsbook...is it only me seeing a connection here?Comment -
JC,
I totally agree with you. Chip dumping is just another weapon a book used to rob players or hold their funds for a long time. Then releases it later when they find they have no evidence at all.Comment -
Next, you'll suggest it wasn't a coincidence that he joined today.Comment -
Never said that. Peoples first post is often a dispute with a sportsbook, something I mentioned in my first post. But my experience is also that many new signups that post comments like this (robber) is having a sort of relationship to the poster. People that scam with multiple accounts, chip dumping etc, also scam forums with multiple signups. Dont bother to explain the whole thing, but Im sure somebody see my point. But its also true what he says, that it often leads to nothing..So the boy must have been involved in the stuff before..Suddenly expresses all this knowledge. I might be paranoid, but Im pretty sure these two nicknames are connected.Originally posted by Winston Smith
But again, let Bill solve this with Betmaker and the player.Comment -
I wasn't disagreeing with you.Comment -
Ok, sorry for editing the post, needed to add some comments there.Comment -
Guys,
Don't hate I'm just expressing myself based on what I observed in the past. I'm doing research on chip dumping and collusion. i want to master it myself so I can put these POKER ROOMS to bankrupcies.Comment -
Why, because in our society people are entitled to see the evidence agaist them. They are not supposed to be blindly accused. The burden is on Betmaker to prove the chip dumping, the player owes them nothing more than his ID.Originally posted by diamondComment -
JC, Im sure he is not blindly accused. But this discussion is just going in the wrong direction, with Chipdumper contributing in a sick way. We can expekt a sportsbook to be fair, but we have to play fair ourselves as well.
I would love to see Betmaker win this case, as I dont believe a shit of what the player is saying,Comment -
OK, Ive seen enough here.
This guy is a fraud. I will point out the bleeding obvious. He says he doesnt know about chip dumping. Noone believes him but now he is in a hole because he cant discuss this accusation.
So he comes back as a chipdumping fraud alias to back himself up by saying blah blah blah.
The fraudster stopped posting wyen chipdumping came on. Their English is clearly very similar ... not sure of the country but there are grammatical structures there which are identical.
This guy is a waste of time. He is guilty as accused.
Case closed.
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Incorrect. He is subject to the Terms and Conditions of the site providing the medium for the activity he wishes to pursue. He agreed to those terms and conditions and therefore he is bound by them. If he didn't like those terms and conditions then he should not have sent them funds in the first place.Originally posted by JCComment -
I don’t know. I doubt the “terms and conditions” specify that the book may request any and all documents it sees fit as part of an alleged investigation into an unspecified or vaguely specified wrongdoing, without even revealing what it’s basing its suspicions on.
And even if it specifies precisely that, that doesn’t settle matters. Unreasonable provisions of contracts are routinely set aside. If you park your car in a parking lot where they have you sign something that includes the provision “Car owner hereby agrees that parking lot will not be liable if one of its employees bashes in the windshield with a tire iron,” guess what? They’re still liable. (I know “legal” principles aren’t literally binding here. But they can be relevant as analogies in discussing what is and isn’t right and reasonable behavior.)
For what it’s worth, I’d guess the guy’s guilty of something or other. But JC is trying to take it beyond “Who do you like better?” or “Who would you rather see lose because they seem like the bigger crook or asshole?” to the level of principle.
Forget the specific book and this clown and his ghost. Isn’t there a problem with a book telling a customer that they’ll confiscate his money if he doesn’t provide it with whatever personal documents they demand, without even specifying what exactly they’re accusing him of and what their grounds are for making the accusation?Comment -
By the way, if a poker site—rightly or wrongly—decides a player was cheating and isn’t entitled to whatever money he has in his account, what happens to the money? It isn’t like he cheated them; they still got their rake. If he cheated anyone it would be the other players at the tables where he was colluding with his partner (or whatever he was doing). Do they somehow distribute his money into the accounts of those other people? Do they just pocket it?Comment -
Originally posted by TLD
Is a good question. I would tend to say no when put that way. Player should at least know what he is accused of.Comment
