I am now a democrat, please join me

[DwightShrute]

[reno cool]

no i'm saying the income tax system is anything but fair, what you government tools claim that it is.

you did it again:
the fact that the government waste trillions of dollars elsewhere is irrelevant to the discussion.
so save the speculating about what i believe or what i have a problem with.


care to share some examples?

You can't be serious. I gave you three and you quoted two in your answer.

Pay attention.
Our social- political system is created and enforced by the wealthy to preserve wealth, influence and power. The govt is a tool in this crusade. Unfortunately, such a system leaves many people up shits creek. All you are doing is blaming the victim. You're either ignorant or a sadist. You chose.

btw, I like much of Ron Paul's rhetoric.

[losturmarbles]

i dont get it

are you saying that 99% of government spending only helps elites?

[Numenor80]

lol...standard repub

[wtf]

ok reno, assuming your right

what you suggest?

you cannot just spread wealth out, reducing the tax burden on lower brackets is the most rational alternative

[reno cool]

Well, I suggest a radically different social and economic order.

However, within the context of the current system any policy that is designed to help the poor and those struggling should be encouraged. It's not good enough to blame the victims. Our system among other things encourages self-promotion, dishonesty, selfishness, scamishness and the like. Qualities you wouldn't want in a friend. To say that someone who is struggling is probably a person of poor character is not only wrong but more like the opposite of the truth.

I don't favor income taxes for anyone. I'd be ok with a sales tax on non-essential items. Or a tax which exempts any income bellow the poverty line. Contrary to what Marbles seems to imply it is not currently the case.

[jon101]

Oh yeah take this

I am an independant because I know republicans and democrats bow to lobbyists.

I am an independant because republicans and democrats are only loyal to dollars instead of voters.

I am an independant because the two party system is corrupt.

I am an independant because republicans and democrats forgot what the constitution is.

I am an independant because while democrats are pushing for healthcare overhauls and wasting trillions, republicans just want to save the rich.

Wouldn't ya like to be an independant too?

[donthalfstep]

huh what donkey-crats

donkey-crats i guess.

[losturmarbles]

Well, I suggest a radically different social and economic order.

However, within the context of the current system any policy that is designed to help the poor and those struggling should be encouraged. It's not good enough to blame the victims. Our system among other things encourages self-promotion, dishonesty, selfishness, scamishness and the like. Qualities you wouldn't want in a friend. To say that someone who is struggling is probably a person of poor character is not only wrong but more like the opposite of the truth.

I don't favor income taxes for anyone. I'd be ok with a sales tax on non-essential items. Or a tax which exempts any income bellow the poverty line. Contrary to what Marbles seems to imply it is not currently the case.

so what exactly did i imply again?

btw selfishness is a virtue.

[reno cool]

so what exactly did i imply again?

btw selfishness is a virtue.

yes, I know, the opposite of everything is true.

for the other question, You imply that those earning at the poverty level pay no taxes. That is not true.

[jon101]

Everyone pays taxes

Electricity
TV
Booze
Cigarettes
State Sales
Water
Phone
Gas
Federal Income
and soon

Sodas
Health Insurance
and more
they get ya coming or going!

[losturmarbles]

yes, I know, the opposite of everything is true.

for the other question, You imply that those earning at the poverty level pay no taxes. That is not true.

and where exactly did i imply this reno?

by asking you if you really believed 99% of government spending only helps elites?

see, i respond to actual statements that you make. i dont try to put words in your mouth and then refute them.

but having a honest dialogue about it isnt possible with you.

[reno cool]

It must be impossible to understand that I'm referring to your statements saying the poor pay no income taxes.
You have posted numerous times claiming that the bottom 50% pay no taxes.

[losturmarbles]

It must be impossible to understand that I'm referring to your statements saying the poor pay no income taxes.
You have posted numerous times claiming that the bottom 50% pay no taxes.

yes ive said in previous threads that the bottom 50% of income earners pay virtually no income tax. 3% of all income tax collected.

so are you saying this is inaccurate again? it comes straight from the irs.

[reno cool]

yes, the implication is certainly inaccurate. You've also said that 30+% pay not taxes. The implication is that those making slightly less than the median income don't pay any taxes. This is of course not true.
I'm not certain if the stats you quote are blatantly false or if they consider certain groups in the (no pay) category that mislead the reader. Possible groups would be: Rich people that deduct all income, children, disabled, pensioners. etc.

Bottom line is any worker making as little as 10k a year pays income taxes.

[losturmarbles]

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

reno, youre a wise man.

doh, there i go with the opposite is true again.

[reno cool]

yes, the implication is certainly inaccurate. You've also said that 30+% pay not taxes. The implication is that those making slightly less than the median income don't pay any taxes. This is of course not true.
I'm not certain if the stats you quote are blatantly false or if they consider certain groups in the (no pay) category that mislead the reader. Possible groups would be: Rich people that deduct all income, children, disabled, pensioners. etc.

Bottom line is any worker making as little as 10k a year pays income taxes.

are you denying the highlighted statement? If not. what's your point? To mislead?

[losturmarbles]

single, no dependents, income of 10k

you will pay $30. thirty dollars.

what has that got to do with anything? what's your point?

youre the one that's steering the conversation. you wont address anything directly, just keep deflecting.

[bettilimbroke999]

He should pay 9k in taxes just like someone making 50k, where do these democrats get off lost? 30 bucks in taxes on 10k in annual income, unreal. He should pay 11k taxes and owe the IRS a 100 hours of work at the end of every year if you ask me

Republican tax system:

Up to 1 million income pay 11k taxes
Over 1 million income pay nothing bc they created jobs making less than a million which pay taxes

[frostno98]

Rightwing Republican radicals are more paranoid and fanatic than them pothead smoking liberals in the 60's and early 70's. These fvcks are going nuts, they're going as far as saying Hawaii is not part of the 50 states and that our President is an illegal alien. LOL! You Cyco's!

[losturmarbles]

lol i always get a good laugh from you bettil

his tax rate is .3 %

9/50 is 18%

that's 60 times as much. for every dollar first guy pays, the 50k guy pays 60.

yeah the income tax rates are fair.

and i'm not advocating raising the rate on the low income. i just believe that everyone should pay 0% tax on income.

[reno cool]

single, no dependents, income of 10k

you will pay $30. thirty dollars.

what has that got to do with anything? what's your point?

youre the one that's steering the conversation. you wont address anything directly, just keep deflecting.

how much does someone making 15k or 25k pay? what's the median income in the US? The point is people making well bellow the avg or median income pay considerable taxes.
I'm happy to answer any question. What am I deflecting? I'm trying to explain the point you're trying to make is misleading at best.

[losturmarbles]

how much does someone making 15k or 25k pay? what's the median income in the US? The point is people making well bellow the avg or median income pay considerable taxes.
I'm happy to answer any question. What am I deflecting? I'm trying to explain the point you're trying to make is misleading at best.

how does 99% of government spending only help the elites?

[reno cool]

I believe I covered some of that here, although there's a lot more to it.(I wouldn't use the word "only". How about "primary function to"?)

The short answer is: govt spends to support, preserve, and expand an unjust, unhealthy social-economic system which benefits elites at the expense of the public.

you are saying that the law is unfair because poor workers can claim a small tax rebate.
government spends money on numerous things.(99% of which helps elites, the rich, business)
Your biggest gripe is the few measly cents that fall to the working poor.
That's pretty small of you.
How did I misrepresent your position?

Of course you don't have a problem of spending billions on the prison system to keep same people enslaved because that makes a ton of $ for business,
You don't have a problem of spending trillions on war which enriches business elites and maintains their power.
I doubt you have a problem with $ spent on research through NASA and countless other programs, discoveries from which are handed over free to business. Products then sold to the public for large profits.

[losturmarbles]

I believe I covered some of that here, although there's a lot more to it.(I wouldn't use the word "only". How about "primary function to"?)

The short answer is: govt spends to support, preserve, and expand an unjust, unhealthy social-economic system which benefits elites at the expense of the public.



[/b]

that i dont totally disagree with, but my stance is government shouldnt be spending the money, yours is that youre okay with them spending it as long as it directly benefits the poor.

[reno cool]

But we debate about helping the poor, while the other things are already a given.

[losturmarbles]

But we debate about helping the poor, while the other things are already a given.

what's a given? that government isnt going to do it's job and only it's job?

it's not the government's job to be "helping" the poor.

what is the purpose of government in a free society reno?

when the government stops being a protector and becomes a granter, we are no longer living in a free society.

but people dont care. people want the government doing for them.

the house gets elected every 2 years, the entire house can be replaced every 2 years. yet the re-election rate is around 95%.

[reno cool]

Society doesn't function without rules and standards. These things are enforced by a "government". There are no objective set of rules. The prevailing laws are created by either the public, some powerful individuals or a mix.

Who says that this property belongs to Mr A? Or you can run this business a certain way? Or, you have to have a degree to perform surgery? It's all established through a governmental process.

Everything we know is linked to government in some way. How do you miss this? The only person who's possibly outside is Grizzly Adams. But he has little to do with modern America.

I believe the government we have is heavily influenced by elitists and scumbags of different sorts to the detriment of good people. And it is the job of government to be helping the poor when it gives all the resources to the wealthy few.

[losturmarbles]

Society doesn't function without rules and standards. These things are enforced by a "government". There are no objective set of rules. The prevailing laws are created by either the public, some powerful individuals or a mix.

...

um, wrong. there is an objective set of rules. it's called the constitution.

the law is just an organization of the natural rights of individuals. it is the substitution of a common force for individual forces. and this common force only has the authority to do what the individual forces have a natural right to do. ie protect life, liberty, and property.

what you may be referring to is the perversion of the law. however you dont object to the perversion, just to whom it may ultimately help more.

[reno cool]

Where in the constitution does it say you're supposed to kill Indians take their land, work your slaves on it and pass it down to your children? But then, when somebody comes for you, then the government is supposed to stop them. Or as you would say, do it's job.

Nothing objective about the constitution anyway. They were a handful of people who made up rules to serve their interests and vision. As you can tell, the poor or the slave wasn't their concern.

[losturmarbles]

Where in the constitution does it say you're supposed to kill Indians take their land, work your slaves on it and pass it down to your children? But then, when somebody comes for you, then the government is supposed to stop them. Or as you would say, do it's job.

Nothing objective about the constitution anyway. They were a handful of people who made up rules to serve their interests and vision. As you can tell, the poor or the slave wasn't their concern.

reno please take a us history class. your ignorance on the subject is really annoying.

http://www.flashpointmag.com/amindus.htm summarizes the constitution and native americans.

slavery unfortunately wasnt directly addressed in the constitution until the thirteenth amendment. and not that every country in the world also had slaves, the constitution was never a pro slavery document.

and then we have the poor again. here you lose me. it's always the poor, huh reno. and it's always the rich man's fault the poor man is poor.

please explain to me how there is "Nothing objective about the constitution". and "the poor ... wasn't their concern."

[reno cool]

What's hard to understand? If a group of people with power agree on something and make it law it's subjective. It has nothing to do with natural law. Natural law= those who can, dictate the law.
What I'm saying is the public should not accept law that's detrimental to it. We as the public should use whatever collective power we have to create a more just and healthy society. Instead of deferring power to elites out of blind ignorance.

[andywend]

Losturmarbles, its hard enough to have a rational conversation with a regular democrat let alone someone like RenoCool.

Initially, the argument started because you correctly indicated that the poor pay no INCOME taxes. RenoCool then refuted your argument saying the poor do pay taxes. However, he left out the "income" part when he objected to your statement and said the following:

"You imply that those earning at the poverty level pay no taxes. That is not true."

He knew what you originally said was 100% accurate but wanted to continue his CRUSADE on how the poor are being taken advantage of by the rich so he purposefully left out the "income" part.

He also said the following:

"And it is the job of government to be helping the poor when it gives all the resources to the wealthy few."

Once again, you are wasting your time trying to have a rational conversation with people who actually think like this.

With that being said, RenoCool is very sincere about what he believes and unlike regular left-wing nutcases can actually think for himself. The problem is his "perfect world" where there is one big middle class can NOT possibly happen.

[reno cool]

I do mean income taxes. How can both of you be so ignorant of simple tax code?

[andywend]

The 2009 Poverty Guidelines for the
48 Contiguous States and the District of Columbia Persons in familyPoverty guideline1$10,830
$10,830 is the top end of the poverty guideline.

Assuming that figure, the individual would have a $5,450 standard deduction and a $3,500 individual exemption.

$8,950 at the very minimum comes off the $10,830 leaving a taxable income of $1,880 and a $188 yearly income tax burden assuming the individual does not claim one single tax deduction.

In return for this $188, the individual can NOT be denied emergency health care, is eligible for a huge assortment of federal low income tax programs, is kept safe from both domestic and international threats as well as being eligible for all the stimulus packages these politicians keep coming up with.

Please explain again how the wealthy 10% who pay over 90% of the tax burden are taking advantage of the poor?

Oh, crap, I need to practice what I preach regarding trying to have rational conversations with people like this.