How come the Japs kick our ass in baseball?

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 04:43 PM

Ty Cobb slugged a mere 117 HRS in his 23 seasons. Wow... steroids era!

In Cobbs' career, 90% of his hits were either SINGLES or DOUBLES. Ichiro? 92%!!!!!! Very similar hitters. Bonds? just 71%.

Just goes to show that SLG% doesn't mean HOMERUNS or POWER.

**Chi_archie** · 03-23-09, 04:43 PM

this is why pedroia is sooo valuable too..

**ryanXL977** · 03-23-09, 04:44 PM

and green monster also, chi

ps. i hate the bosox

**Chi_archie** · 03-23-09, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by element1286

Times Ty Cobb finished in the top 10 in the AL in home runs.

Home Runs
1907 AL-5-2
1908 AL-4-6
1909 AL-9-1
1910 AL-8-2
1911 AL-8-2
1912 AL-7-3
1913 AL-4-8
1916 AL-5-5
1917 AL-6-4
1918 AL-3-7
1921 AL-12-9

DK, ^this ended the discussion.... Cobb was one of the top Home run hitters of his time.... if cobb played in the live ball era, he would basically be hitting 30-60 hr's by those estimates...

its apples and oranges, and stop changing the argument... first you said Cobb was a SINGLES hitter, now he is a singles AND doubles hitter??? which is it.

the fact that you argue how good a pitcher is by wins... and compare the deadball era to "steroid era" homerun totals and stats pretty much makes EVERYONE aware that you haven't made it..

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 04:51 PM

Who cares how he ranked as a HR hitter during his era???????

90% of his hits came from SINGLES & DOUBLES! If that makes him a POWER HITTER, then apparently Ichiro qualifies as one since too since he's at 92%!!!!!

Btw, 93% of Rose's hits were SINGLES & DOUBLES..... similar to Cobb & Ichiro.

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 04:54 PM

# of HRs hit might've changed but how SLG% is calculated DID NOT.

So your point is MOOT.

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 04:58 PM

Ichiro Suzuki: One of the Best Players the Game Has Ever Seen

Even though the Major League Baseball season is officially over now, I still have baseball on the brain. One thing I've been wondering about lately is if Ichiro can reach the 3,000-hit plateau in the MLB.

He already has 3,083 hits, if you count his numbers in Japan. But if Sadaharu Oh has taught us anything, it's that those Japanese stats don't count

I like crunching numbers, especially when sports are involved; so away we go.

In eight years (2001-08) in the MLB, Ichiro has 1,805 hits. That's an average of 225 hits a year. In Japan (1992-2000), he had 1278 hits in nine seasons, for an average of 142 hits a season.

Let's break this down even further by looking at his numbers year by year in both leagues (hits, avg.).

Japan

1992 - 24, .253; 1993 - 12, .188; 1994 - 210*(single-season record), .385; 1995 - 179, .342; 1996 - 193, .356; 1997 - 185, .345; 1998 - 181, .358; 1999 - 141; .343; 2000 - 153, .387

Again, that's 1278 hits, with a .353 average in nine years. That includes just 36 hits and a .221 average in his first two seasons.

In Japan, they only play 144 games a year and Ichiro has played at most 135 games (twice). Ichiro played 951 games in Japan. They also don't play past the 12th inning if the game is tied, costing players some bonus at-bats; or in Ichiro's case, a hit or two.

MLB

2001 - 242, .350; 2002 - 208, .321; 2003 - 212, .312; 2004 - 262*(single-season record), .372;

2005 - 206, .303; 2006 - 224, .322; 2007 - 238, .351; 2008 - 213, .310
That's good for 1805 hits and a .329 average in eight years. We all know that the MLB season is 162-games long. Ichiro has played at least 157 games every year. He has missed only THREE games in the last five seasons; how's that for dependable? Ichiro has played 1280 games in the MLB.

He has 333 extra-base hits, and I'm not quite sure how many infield singles Ichiro has, but it's probably a high number. Take a look at his MLB numbers again, at least 206 hits every year, amazing!

Let's continue with the whole numbers theme; Ichiro averaged 1.34 hits per game in Japan and 1.41 hits per game in the MLB, for a 1.38 in his entire 17-year professional baseball career. That may not mean much to the average fan, but consider these other prolific hitters' hits per game averages (3,000-hit club members).

Tony Gwynn (1.28), Cap Anson (1.36), Rod Carew (1.24), Honus Wagner (1.23), Robin Yount (1.1), Ty Cobb (1.38), Tris Speaker (1.26), Pete Rose (1.19), and Nap Lajoie (1.31).

Ichiro is ahead of all those Hall of Famers (using his 1.41 in the MLB), especially the two greatest hitters to play the game in Cobb and Rose. Granted, the game has changed immensely since Cobb's, and even Rose's days, but that doesn't change the fact of Ichiro dominating opposing pitching.

So what does all this number crunching mean?

It means that Ichiro can reach the coveted 3,000 hit mark in the MLB, even with his nine years played in Japan. That is provided his amazing track record for health and effectiveness stays put.

What will it take for Ichiro to get there though?

If he keeps his pace of 225 hits per year, he will only need to play six more years in this league. And that means playing until he is 40 years old and possibly completing a 23-year professional baseball career.

This may also mean an eventual move to DH (a highly-disputed position) or not, but Ichiro can amass more than 3,000 hits if he can manage to stay in the game through the 2014 season.

I must add that Ichiro also excels on defense. In his seven full seasons in Japan, Ichiro has won a gold glove every single season.

In eight MLB seasons, he has eight gold gloves. 17 years in baseball and 15 gold gloves, mixed with his hitting prowess; that's what I call a great baseball player.

An eight-time All Star and a two-time batting champ in the MLB; not to mention the Rookie of the Year and the league's MVP in 2001. He was a three-time MVP in Japan.

Now, there's only one question left in all of this. In what city will he continue to play?

There's talk about him getting moved out of Seattle (he is the best player on a crappy team), but that city might just fall apart if he goes. First the Sonics and then Ichiro?

Where ever he ends up though, he needs to continue to be a leadoff hitter, because if Ichiro gets on base in that first inning, you're team is in good shape.

It will also guarantee him an at-bat in the first inning, thus keeping his percentage of getting at least one hit per game rather high.

I have never seen Ichiro play in person, but there's a saying for certain players of, "that's a guy you'd pay to see". I would gladly open up my wallet to see Ichiro play at least once.

Ichiro Suzuki: One of the Best Players the Game Has Ever Seen

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/75163-ichiro-suzuki-one-of-the-best-players-the-game-has-ever-seen

Even though the Major League Baseball season is officially over now, I still have baseball on the brain. One thing I've been wondering about lately is if Ichiro can reach the 3,000-hit plateau in the MLB...

**ryanXL977** · 03-23-09, 05:03 PM

how is your copy and paste any more evidence than the shit obama our lord does that you rail against? it doesnt prove shit.
i can find an article saying ryan doumit is the best hitter, every player has some crazy asshole fan

ichiro isnt top tier hitter.

**Chi_archie** · 03-23-09, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by daggerkobe

# of HRs hit might've changed but how SLG% is calculated DID NOT.

So your point is MOOT.

right... Ty Cobb # 67 all time in slugging % I'd say all the guys ahead of him were considered "sluggers" or power hitters or whatever the category he made up was...

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 05:06 PM

Can you NOT read?

Ichiro is ahead of all those Hall of Famers (using his 1.41 in the MLB), especially the two greatest hitters to play the game in Cobb and Rose.

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Chi_archie

right... Ty Cobb # 67 all time in slugging % I'd say all the guys ahead of him were considered "sluggers" or power hitters or whatever the category he made up was...

Again, you don't seem to understand SLG%.

Even if he had 0 career HRs, and all his HRs were instead all singles, he'd still be top 100. Why do you think that is?

**waiverwire** · 03-23-09, 05:11 PM

I feel stupider for having read this thread. Ichiro is not top 20 or 30 in the statistics that contribute to winning games (for example OPS). Dice-K is not top 20 in the statistics that predict future performance best (like xFIP).

**ryanXL977** · 03-23-09, 05:13 PM

ted williams is the best hitter of all time

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by waiverwire

I feel stupider for having read this thread. Ichiro is not top 20 or 30 in the statistics that contribute to winning games (for example OPS). Dice-K is not top 20 in the statistics that predict future performance best (like xFIP).

This moron ghost has to be Ryan.

**ryanXL977** · 03-23-09, 05:22 PM

everyone is a moron but you, who thinks a guy is the best pitcher bc he was 18-3
i guess russ ortiz and bartolo colon were better in 2k4 than johan santana, or whatever year it was

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 05:27 PM

Russ Ortiz never had a 18-3 (85.7% win) season, an ERA under 3.29 or lead the majors in BAA.

Yeah, keep throwing out retarded comparisons.

**ryanXL977** · 03-23-09, 05:32 PM

how does a 6 inning pitcher control his wins? he doesnt, his offense and bullpen do

**Willie Bee** · 03-23-09, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by ryanXL977

ted williams is the best hitter of all time

I would agree with this, combined the batting eye of a pure hitter with the power of a slugger. I saw a bit with Williams and Tony Gwynn talking about hitting and Williams sort of admonished Gwynn for not mixing in more long balls to his offensive attack.

Cobb and Ichiro would be pretty good comparisons in my opinion, though I really hate comparing across such a wide set or eras that the game has gone through. Technology is certainly one reason. In Cobb's day, they didn't throw in a new ball to play with ever 2-3 pitches as they do now. In fact, they didn't really start using a bunch of new balls in a game until after Ray Chapman was killed. Coincidentally, that was at the beginning of the 'Babe Ruth Era' when the home run started to figure more and more into the game.

**Chi_archie** · 03-23-09, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by daggerkobe

Again, you don't seem to understand SLG%.

Even if he had 0 career HRs, and all his HRs were instead all singles, he'd still be top 100. Why do you think that is?

hmmmm well i'd guess that being 2nd all time in triples and 4th all time in doubles had a SOMTHING to do with it...

maybe your argument is that TY Cobb was a pure singles, doubles AND triples hitter and one of the top home run hitters of his era????????

is that where we've moved to?

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 05:48 PM

In his 18 wins, his ERA was even better (2.55 ERA) and 8 shutouts when he exited the game. Don't let facts get in the way of your racist rants.

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Chi_archie

hmmmm well i'd guess that being 2nd all time in triples and 4th all time in doubles had a SOMTHING to do with it...

maybe your argument is that TY Cobb was a pure singles, doubles AND triples hitter and one of the top home run hitters of his era????????

is that where we've moved to?

Cumulatative hits don't mean squat in this discussion.... he did play 23 seasons.

Like I said, take away his "POWER" triples & HRs and 90% of his hits were singles & doubles. Similar to Ichiro's 92% and Rose's 93%. A true SLUGGER in Balco Bonds was just 72%.

Or are you delusional enough to believe that hitting DOUBLES makes Cobb a SLUGGER in the same sense as Bonds, Hank Aaron and Mark McGwire?

**Willie Bee** · 03-23-09, 05:57 PM

My only problem with Matsuzaka is you have to have quality pitchers in the pen to pitch the final three innings. Wins really don't mean squat for determining a pitcher's effectiveness any longer, and to be honest I never liked them back when pitchers routinely finished what they started. If they assigned wins and losses to all players, Ernie Banks would be a .487 shortstop. Dice K's 18 wins last year were pretty remarkable considering he didn't even average 6 IP per start, and you have to go 5 for a starter to even get into the Win column. Digging deeper into his starts, it shows how strong the Red Sox bullpen was to maintain all of those leads. Five of his wins came with him pitching the minimum 5 IP.

**ryanXL977** · 03-23-09, 05:58 PM

it also shows how strong the bosox offense was in the early innings

**Chi_archie** · 03-23-09, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by daggerkobe

Cumulatative hits don't mean squat in this discussion.... he did play 23 seasons.

Like I said, take away his "POWER" triples & HRs and 90% of his hits were singles & doubles. Similar to Ichiro's 92% and Rose's 93%. A true SLUGGER in Balco Bonds was just 72%.

Or are you delusional enough to believe that hitting DOUBLES makes Cobb a SLUGGER in the same sense as Bonds, Hank Aaron and Mark McGwire?

why would I ever compare Cobb to them? YOU are the one that said Cobb was a pure singles hitter and a "slap" hitter... the burden of proof was on your to prove your statement...

I never claimed that Cobb as a slugger... I only gave you stats to dis proved your statement. I think you got a little confused in this argument as you got buried.....

I proved that Cobb most certainly was not a "slap" singles hit in his era... by the way alot if not most of doubles are the result of "power" so you can't just claim them as part of your "slap" hitter argument...

fuk cumulative stats, Cobb was a triples machine, it had nothing to do with his 23 years..... in his prime he was hitting 15-25 triples a YEAR...

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Willie Bee

My only problem with Matsuzaka is you have to have quality pitchers in the pen to pitch the final three innings. Wins really don't mean squat for determining a pitcher's effectiveness any longer, and to be honest I never liked them back when pitchers routinely finished what they started. If they assigned wins and losses to all players, Ernie Banks would be a .487 shortstop. Dice K's 18 wins last year were pretty remarkable considering he didn't even average 6 IP per start, and you have to go 5 for a starter to even get into the Win column. Digging deeper into his starts, it shows how strong the Red Sox bullpen was to maintain all of those leads. Five of his wins came with him pitching the minimum 5 IP.

He led the majors in BAA and had 8 shutouts when he was taken out. He was coming off a stint in the DL so I can understand why Francoma didn't want him going 8 innings each start.

Sure, Red Sux has one of the best closers in the business but they had a pretty weak middle relief with Okajima struggling so bad he was moved out of his setup role. But it doesn't change the fact that Dice K gave them a quality-to-spectacular start in almost every start last season.

Also, their BP & offense being good didn't exactly help Beckett much did they?

**ryanXL977** · 03-23-09, 06:09 PM

usc beats an nfl team
check
and
mate

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Chi_archie

why would I ever compare Cobb to them? YOU are the one that said Cobb was a pure singles hitter and a "slap" hitter... the burden of proof was on your to prove your statement...

I never claimed that Cobb as a slugger... I only gave you stats to dis proved your statement. I think you got a little confused in this argument as you got buried.....

I proved that Cobb most certainly was not a "slap" singles hit in his era... by the way alot if not most of doubles are the result of "power" so you can't just claim them as part of your "slap" hitter argument...

fuk cumulative stats, Cobb was a triples machine, it had nothing to do with his 23 years..... in his prime he was hitting 15-25 triples a YEAR...

You still don't get it, do you?

You're the one who tried to compare Cobb to the "POWER HITTERS" of today. You failed miserably. A doubles/triple does NOT a power hitter make! Then I guess Rollins, Reyes, Granderson and Crawford are POWER HITTERS in your confused little mind since they hit close to 20 triples a season.

Since you are still clueless and unable to understand why Cobb had a high SLG% with hardly any power.... it was due to his seasons having less games than today (thus less at bats). He could have 0 HRs and 5 triples a season and he's still have a high SLG% due to the simple fact that he had a high BA (3 times over .400). It's as simple as that. All his hits could've come from bunt singles and he'd still be top 100 in SLG%.

But then again, you'd still believe he was a "SLUGGER" in your confused mind.

**element1286** · 03-23-09, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by waiverwire

I feel stupider for having read this thread. Ichiro is not top 20 or 30 in the statistics that contribute to winning games (for example OPS). Dice-K is not top 20 in the statistics that predict future performance best (like xFIP).

Exactly.

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by ryanXL977

usc beats an nfl team
check
and
mate

Oh? What was the score of their game, dumbass?

**Willie Bee** · 03-23-09, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by daggerkobe

He led the majors in BAA and had 8 shutouts when he was taken out. He was coming off a stint in the DL so I can understand why Francoma didn't want him going 8 innings each start.

Sure, Red Sux has one of the best closers in the business but they had a pretty weak middle relief with Okajima struggling so bad he was moved out of his setup role. But it doesn't change the fact that Dice K gave them a quality-to-spectacular start in almost every start last season.

To be a shutout, you need to go nine full innings unless a game is shortened by rain.

As for Okajima struggling, I assume you're talking about a rough patch in June. Over the course of the season, he had three games in which he allowed a total of 10 runs, all earned, in a total of 2 IP. Those games were June 2, Jun 10 and Aug 17. In his other 61 appearances covering 60 IP, he allowed 10 earned runs. Practically all pitchers are going to have times that the hitters win. This is true even for Matsuzaka who had three really bad goes among his 29 starts: April 13 vs Yankees, 5 IP, 4 ER, 6 BB; June 21 vs. Cardinals, 1 IP, 7 ER, 3 BB, and; July 28 vs. Angels, 5 Ip, 6 ER, 2 BB.

He had a fantastic season, but without the great job the bullpen did, including Okajima, he'd have never gotten the 18 wins.

**ryanXL977** · 03-23-09, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by daggerkobe

You still don't get it, do you?

You're the one who tried to compare Cobb to the "POWER HITTERS" of today. You failed miserably. A doubles/triple does NOT a power hitter make! Then I guess Rollins, Reyes, Granderson and Crawford are POWER HITTERS in your confused little mind since they hit close to 20 triples a season.

Since you are still clueless and unable to understand why Cobb had a high SLG% with hardly any power.... it was due to his seasons having less games than today (thus less at bats). He could have 0 HRs and 5 triples a season and he's still have a high SLG% due to the simple fact that he had a high BA (3 times over .400). It's as simple as that. All his hits could've come from bunt singles and he'd still be top 100 in SLG%.

But then again, you'd still believe he was a "SLUGGER" in your confused mind.

crawford, rollins, reyes, and granderson all get a lot of xbh's, and rollins hits like 25 hrs a year in two of the last three? its not even comparable between rollins, reyes, crawford and ichiro. those 3 are a mile better hitters a

a mile

**Chi_archie** · 03-23-09, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by daggerkobe

You still don't get it, do you?

You're the one who tried to compare Cobb to the "POWER HITTERS" of today. You failed miserably. A doubles/triple does NOT a power hitter make! Then I guess Rollins, Reyes, Granderson and Crawford are POWER HITTERS in your confused little mind since they hit close to 20 triples a season.

Since you are still clueless and unable to understand why Cobb had a high SLG% with hardly any power.... it was due to his seasons having less games than today (thus less at bats). He could have 0 HRs and 5 triples a season and he's still have a high SLG% due to the simple fact that he had a high BA (3 times over .400). It's as simple as that. All his hits could've come from bunt singles and he'd still be top 100 in SLG%.

But then again, you'd still believe he was a "SLUGGER" in your confused mind.

lol that is the dumbest post I've ever read....

games have nothing to do with it... I'm sure Cobb is near the top of the list all time in total games played, so I don't think his sample size is too small..

why is his slugging % high? simple he had alot of total bases..... he got alot of bases from singles, alot of bases from doubles, alot of bases from triples and a decent amount from homers...

again I never compared Cobb to power hitters of today... I merely said he wasn't a slap hitter... YOU BROUGHT him into the discussion... you LABELED him...

I and others only showed you that you can't take his RAW homerun totals and single season stats and compare them to HR totals of today... Cobb led his league in homers one year.... will Ichiro do that? did rose ever do that? nuff said

Cobb, was almost always in the top 10 in his league in homers in his prime... IN HIS era HE DID HIT FOR POWER, you can't deny that.

you are the goofball pretending i'm comparing him to bonds or big mac... that is silly... I'm not trying to say he is a power hitter.
only point out that is was a RIDICULOUS FOOL HARDY statement to say he was a singles hitter

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by Willie Bee

To be a shutout, you need to go nine full innings unless a game is shortened by rain.

As for Okajima struggling, I assume you're talking about a rough patch in June. Over the course of the season, he had three games in which he allowed a total of 10 runs, all earned, in a total of 2 IP. Those games were June 2, Jun 10 and Aug 17. In his other 61 appearances covering 60 IP, he allowed 10 earned runs. Practically all pitchers are going to have times that the hitters win. This is true even for Matsuzaka who had three really bad goes among his 29 starts: April 13 vs Yankees, 5 IP, 4 ER, 6 BB; June 21 vs. Cardinals, 1 IP, 7 ER, 3 BB, and; July 28 vs. Angels, 5 Ip, 6 ER, 2 BB.

He had a fantastic season, but without the great job the bullpen did, including Okajima, he'd have never gotten the 18 wins.

Which is why I prefaced it by saying he had a shutout going when he EXITED those games.

If your starter gives you 5-7 shut out innings, don't you think he deserved the win if he gets it?

AS for Okajima... he blew 8 SAVES and he's not even the f'n closer!!!! His ERA was 9.64 in June and 3.75 in August. He couldn't handle the pressure of the setup role and was demoted to middle relief and was able to get his confidence back. But this just weakened the setup role even more. So it was not an automatic save as you make it out to be.

Plus.... what team doesn't depend on their pen to get saves? I think K-Rod helped a few of the starters get wins... and Mariano also. Hardly any pitcher goes full 9 innings any more.

**ryanXL977** · 03-23-09, 06:37 PM

who on earth wouldnt rather have ervin santana over dice k

not even a debate
ill take a guy who goes 7 every time

**daggerkobe** · 03-23-09, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Chi_archie

lol that is the dumbest post I've ever read....

games have nothing to do with it... I'm sure Cobb is near the top of the list all time in total games played, so I don't think his sample size is too small..

why is his slugging % high? simple he had alot of total bases..... he got alot of bases from singles, alot of bases from doubles, alot of bases from triples and a decent amount from homers...

again I never compared Cobb to power hitters of today... I merely said he wasn't a slap hitter... YOU BROUGHT him into the discussion... you LABELED him...

I and others only showed you that you can't take his RAW homerun totals and single season stats and compare them to HR totals of today... Cobb led his league in homers one year.... will Ichiro do that? did rose ever do that? nuff said

Cobb, was almost always in the top 10 in his league in homers in his prime... IN HIS era HE DID HIT FOR POWER, you can't deny that.

you are the goofball pretending i'm comparing him to bonds or big mac... that is silly... I'm not trying to say he is a power hitter.
only point out that is was a RIDICULOUS FOOL HARDY statement to say he was a singles hitter

You still don't get it.

You do realize that number of ABs is a crucial factor in SLG%, right? You don't seem to realize this. The funny thing is, he never had more hits in a single season than Ichiro's 262 hits in 2004 in 704 at-bats. But then again Cobb never had more than 605 at-bats due to their season being 26 games less in his era.

Lets say Cobb did have 100 more at-bats a year... and his hits remained the same, you think his SLG% wouldn't drop?

OF COURSE IT WOULD!!!!!

Again, you're the one who tried and failed miserably to compare Cobb to the SLUGGERS of today such as Pujols. Cobb was NOT a slugger in any sense of the word. He was someone whose 90% of hits were SINGLES & DOUBLES.... just like Ichiro & Rose. He was not a slugger in any sense of the word, unless you think Reyes and Rollins are sluggers since they hit a lot of triples themselves.

Like I said, take away his HOMERUNS & TRIPLES and he'd still have a high SLG% due to the fact he had a lot of hits relative to his ABs.

He was a GREAT SINGLES HITTER more so than a SLUGGER. He was NOT Bonds, Pujols or McGwire. A SLUGGER isn't someone that hits SINGLES & DOUBLES 90% of his career.