Canbet, Centrebet, Ladbrokes, Stan James vs Pinny, CRIS, DSI, Greek etc - RANT

[betplom]

p.s. skybook has the best CS IMO and ive tried just about every A+ rated book

Cloakster, I don't doubt you at all, but I don't have an account with Skybook myself and doubt I'll be opening anymore accounts anytime soon.

Right now I have active accounts (obviously not all funded) at Canbet/Centrebet/Stan James/Ladbrokes/Pinnacle/Greek/5Dimes/CRIS/DSI/Matchbook/BETDAQ/

[HeeeHAWWWW]

I'd rather have Pinnie's 8c asian EPL lines than Stan James' 35c. At least Ladbrokes/centre/canbet are 20c.

Poor CS is irritating, but poor lines cost money.


Limits: Stan do limit more than any of the others there - their lines are very slow to move, so it's kinda inevitable. Ladbrokes/dsi are OK, takes a while to get limited. It's pretty hard going to get limited at the big Aussie books - unless you repeatedly bet bad lines or blatantly steambet of course.

[englishmike]

I dont care what the juice is wherever, I choose my picks and use an oddschecker to find the highest price I can get and bet it there, simple as that, if Stan james offer me the highest price for a bet i want I take it, end of story. I don'treally get involved in the vagries of 'juice.' Of course i'm refering to soccer and I do realise juice plays a very important part in the US sportsbetting landscape, but for soccer, prices never move, if it's 6-1 on Monday it will be 6-1 on gameday, it's fixed odds.

[betplom]

Right, for MLB UK books tend to offer worse lines, but I get good prices on hockey from Centrebet/Canbet, comparable to Pinnacle, especially if I bet early.

I can't argue that there are better lines elsewhere, my original post was in regard to the frustration of dealing with offshore books, then Durito came in and started all his shit, ignoring the reason for my post.

I'm happy to have friendly arguments/discusions with people that behave in a courteous manner such as yourself.

[rookie]

Canbet, Centrebet, Ladbrokes, Stan James.

Customer service is top notch, if I have a problem or a request these places never hesitate to help.
Getting things done is easy, withdrawals are free and quick, I can put the request in online while logged into one of my accounts for a moneybookers payout and can expect to see the funds in my moneybookers account anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours later.

These UK/Aussie books don't ask for my password, they ask me verification questions when dealing with personal information of mine.


CRIS - they ask for my password when I contact them, these guys are in a third world country and I don't particulary trust them, I really hate giving out my password.

DSI - Same as CRIS with passwords but my DSI account is in Canadian Dollars, when I order a check I have to pay $50 USD, then get a US Dollar check in the CAD equivalent, I get hosed on the exchange every time.
The DSI "rewards program" isn't fully available (Freeplays -YES, free payouts - NO) to Canadians, only US residents. I no longer use DSI.

Pinnacle - I changed my email address because of spam, I told Pinny of my new email, they told me they had to send my moneybookers payouts to my old email address for all previous deposits until they were cleared off the books (even though my email addy was now inactive), their customer service via email is often unhelpful and downright arrogant - I'm not playing much at Pinny lately.

Greek - difficult to understand CS reps that seem annoyed at having to help out, never seem to be very helpful, I find I have to ask to speak to a supervisor to get anything done by them

One thing I know is that I receive much better treatment/customer service from licensed UK/Aussie books than I have from any "offshore" book - EVER!

I'm just venting my frustrations at the moment, offshore books do have some useful features but they are a distant second to the books I mentioned at the top in terms of customer satisfaction.

I'll probably add to this as I think of other things I like/dislike about the different books.

A few points:

- Stan James' customer service rocks: email response within few minutes at times.

- Wrote an email to Canbet more than a week back and no response as yet. You have to wait for 24 hours before a moneybookers withdrawal from them.

- The practice of asking for password is wrong but who devised it ? N. American owners/managers in all probability. Btw, did you follow that 60 mins story on poker ?

- I have had to email almost every UK / Irish / Gib sportsbook about grading errors.

- Smart traders / bookies don't limit anyone for going on a hot streak. The key is the odds / line at which bets are made. If you consistently beat the closing odds (or bet at best odds available), then you need to be limited.

[MoneySportsGuy]

you make some very good points

[HeeeHAWWWW]

I dont care what the juice is wherever, I choose my picks and use an oddschecker to find the highest price I can get and bet it there, simple as that, if Stan james offer me the highest price for a bet i want I take it, end of story. I don'treally get involved in the vagries of 'juice.'

Yeah, fair enough.

However, the problem with Stan James in that context is that they'll only ever have the best price in two situations:

1) they're way off base on the opening price. Not a bad line or typo, but fairly significantly off the market consensus
2) the market has moved bigtime, and they've been ridiculously slow to change (has to be a major move too, when you're talking 35c!).


Either way means they eat a lot of money on the outcome, and if you bet that repeatedly their software will flag you for account review eventually - if you're only betting there when they have best odds, you don't have the ameliorating factor of lots of more normal mugpunt-ish type bets to disguise them.

They're kinda like a UK equivalent of Carib - dodgy lines on occasion, ok max stakes at first, but the good lines are the ones that will get you limited eventually.


There's a good example of this on Friday's Bayern-Hoffenheim match, where the under price has dropped. Stan are still stuck on +220, when with their juice they should be around +160 to +180. It's not an arb so doesn't get automatically hammered, but it's still around 10% value, which is totally unsustainable. Either they limit customers, or get better software/risk management (or the 3rd alternative: go bust). Most UK books choose the former.

This isn't really an issue with canbet, who have asian-style risk management on soccer and rarely get caught with their pants down on lines like that. Centrebet sometimes get a little caught out on obscure sports, but they refer all sizable bets on such markets to traders, so not a problem.

[englishmike]

That's interesting stuff H. I wouldn't claim to win every bet I place and am definetly down over the last ten years but I do have some food runs and I do pick and choose the best prices for all my bets.

As you know, just because it's the best price it doesn't mean it win. For example, I've backed Watford to beat Tottenham tommorow with bet365 because they were offering a best price of +400. I made that bet because I make Watford a +300 chance so I beleive I've found an 'edge' but if Watford lose it's just another loser I've backed at bet365, so my edge is dependent on Watford winning and bet365 know that, as do Stan James.

I think my point is, soccer betting is a different animal to any other sport, especially at UK books.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

There's an element of the unknown here - what books are using more complicated sowtware analysis, and which are just the head trader casting their eye over an account for 30 seconds?

If it's the latter, it's mainly winning accounts and those which bet on obscure sports are in trouble. If it's the former (and it's really the only way to do it properly), it doesn't really matter whether you win or lose the Watford bet - if you always beat the closing line, there's no way to escape limits as it's so easy for them to check automatically. Once they have enough examples to be statistically valid, you're done for. Quite what constitutes enough I've no idea - I think this could be entirely automatic, as there's very little need for any subjective human input with that method.

wrt the Watford example: although I like the bet (got to love the MickeyMouse Cup for upsets!), bet365 haven't moved the line - the far eastern books like 188 have slightly higher odds, so bet365 will be taking minimal amounts on Watford. It's probably a good example of a value bet that won't beat the closing line, because there's so much Asian square money going on the big name team, shielding what would otherwise be an exposed line.

[RogueJuror]

It's somewhat clear that some of these books examine accounts from outside England with more scrutiny.

OK, now that is 100% true and I have no problem in beleiving that 'foreign' bettors are also the subject of checks and verification that an English person would never be subjected to.

I've read the threads you refer to and it is noticeable that the people booted were either betting 'minority' sports or were located abroad.

I couldn't begin to think why they would be treated any differently other than paranoia.

In Bet365, out of corporate policy, there are seperate risk trader groups that handle the UK customers and abroad customers. I know this for a fact, as to exactly why I don't know. I theorize that in their corporate books a UK customer has a higher value than an abroad customer, a UK customer may have less acqusition cost, cheaper dispute resolution, higher retention rate. At such policy, the UK customers risk traders are permitted more leeway, and abroad customers experience a diminished service.

[englishmike]

You make some great points H and I love your obvious wealth of knowledge, it's interesting to me, but UK soccer M/L are very rarely moved at UK books, so there is no 'closing' line as there is in the US. I'm not saying lines never move, I'm just pointing out there's a completely different mentality and reasoning behind the way lines are arrived at and why they hardly move. Unlike any other country in the world, there is more faith applied to the way a trader or linesmaker arrived at a line than there is to the weight of public money that line then attracts. Also, if they suddenly become vulnerable to weight of money they simply hedge, often amongst each other.

The opening line is the closing line becuase, although bet365 are longer about Watford, they're also shorter about Tottenham, the price about Watford is +400 because their soccer trader thinks Tottenham will win, and it will stay +400 until kick-off. (I'm praying it does otherwise I look an idiot!)

So yes, when you talk about accounts being limited, in theory my account could be looked at because I beat the Ladbokes price about Watford, but Watford still need to win and that's what makes soccer slightly different. I beleive Watford will beat Tottenham in tommorows circumstances one time in three, so consequently I find +400 an attractive price. The reality is, if they lose, all I've done is backed another loser, my perceived edge actually means nothing when looking at my ability to cap soccer, I'm guessing like everyone else and Stan james and Bet365 know this.

How sharp is it to be entrusting your money to a crappy football team that are one division below their opponents just because you've got an extra point?

Because I'm betting well priced dogs, it stands to reason that Bet365 could look at my account and see it's a losing one because I've had a bad run there, in the same way Ladbrokes might take a look and see it's winning for the last three months but losing overall in the last nine , yet winning for the last two years, yet down over the last five. These are just examples but the general point stands, I actually use twenty books and don't put a significant amount of cash through any, simply because of price shopping.

What I'm trying to say is, it's possible to have accounts that back winners and losers at the same ratio but still be slightly ahead money wise, but probably not enough for anyone to take a look and think I was being 'sharp' in any way, my wins and losses are spread equally, I just happen to know if I take my time and keep trying to find my perceived 'edge' I will do ok long term. Does that mean i win a lot of money?....No, it doesn't, it just means that I'l win enough to make gambling as cost effective as possible, i.e. lose as little as possible and take it from there.

Obviously when I make the comments above, I do realise that asian books, offshores and just about everyone else do have flexible prices. The reason they don't in the UK is predominately because Ladbrokes for instance operate 2000 walk-in premises(as i'm sure you know,) with football matches on pre-printed sheets for customers to fill in, much the same as Vegas. They don't alter their odds, quite simply because it would be a logistical nightmare to do so and their soccer traders consequently sit on the hottest seats. The amount of money Ladbokes take on a single big soccer match is absolutely vast and I can assure you the sheet is the same on gameday as it was on Monday.

[englishmike]

In Bet365, out of corporate policy, there are seperate risk trader groups that handle the UK customers and abroad customers. I know this for a fact, as to exactly why I don't know. I theorize that in their corporate books a UK customer has a higher value than an abroad customer, a UK customer may have less acqusition cost, cheaper dispute resolution, higher retention rate. At such policy, the UK customers risk traders are permitted more leeway, and abroad customers experience a diminished service.

Great post and great points, I also think you'll find the foreign bettors, particuarly from the Americanas, are betting on sports that books such as Bet365 don't feel they have enough 'control' over or local knowledge and subsequently are quick to boot. Volatile line movements are another reason why UK books don't particuarly like US sports.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Aha, good point - I'd totally forgotten about the effect of Ladbrokes (and willhilll's) chain of shops. Pretty much all my soccer bets are at 12bet or Pinnacle these days, and my bet365 account has been limited a while now (Russian lower division soccer betting, in retrospect asking for trouble!). I use Ladbrokes for US betting occasionally though. Wish I had bet365 shops near me though, I'd have been in there every night clobbering their duff MLB lines :-))

An interesting (to me!) related point is that Asian Handicap soccer lines often bounce around as manically as any US sport, but the 1x2 prices don't. That'll mainly be because of the lower juice on asian lines forcing everyone into a narrower range, as arbers pick off anyone outside it. That asian/1x2 disconnect does nicely illustrate the different focus between (geographic) Asian and European betting though - eg ladbrokes/tote/eurobet currently have better 1x2 prices for spurs than any asian book does on the -0.5 (square money in Asia? early morning in Europe vs night in Asia?)

[vanman]

Uk books have got to be the safest,but also the quickest to show you the door,depending on your betting patterns.
Someone like Mikey will probably be able to play at them for ever more if he`s only playing say a dozen bets a week in total and there all at different books due to following the best price.

[noyb]

to track back in this thread a bit, centrebet might not limit outright, but refers all your bets to a trader and then accepts little to nothing these days, they might as well just limit.
to say you haven't heard about stan james ever limiting is beyond me, since they are one of the fastest limiters around, and this is well documented.

in general though, cs at european books is definitely much better then at sbr's US-facing A-books for some reason, with in my experience the cris-group being the worst. If you e-mail you don't get an answer, if you livechat you get a wrong answer, and I've pretty much given up on calling books in the Carribean region unless it's absolutely necessary since i just somehow can't understand their english half of the time and they can't understand mine (never had that with any other book), which makes for some pretty frustrating calls.

[APK]

I dont care what the juice is wherever, I choose my picks and use an oddschecker to find the highest price I can get and bet it there, simple as that, if Stan james offer me the highest price for a bet i want I take it, end of story. I don'treally get involved in the vagries of 'juice.' Of course i'm refering to soccer and I do realise juice plays a very important part in the US sportsbetting landscape, but for soccer, prices never move, if it's 6-1 on Monday it will be 6-1 on gameday, it's fixed odds.

It looks like you don't follow markets much because most soccer prices tend to move all over the place, to such an extend that I don't understand that certain bookies (the slow or non moving ones) are still in business.

[Santo]

"Prices never move" is pretty laughable.. fixed odds refers to the fact they don't change after you bet them, they change all the time.

[fiveteamer]

Why did dorito edit all of his posts last night?

[englishmike]

"Prices never move" is pretty laughable.. fixed odds refers to the fact they don't change after you bet them, they change all the time.

You're right, myself and the author of this book are pathalogical liars.

http://www.fixed-odds-sports-betting.co.uk/

[englishmike]

Why did dorito edit all of his posts last night?

Given that Durito is constantly reffered to as one of 'the sharpest posters at SBR,' I'll let him answer for himself.

[englishmike]

"Prices never move" is pretty laughable.. fixed odds refers to the fact they don't change after you bet them, they change all the time.

The fact you've wrongly described the meaning of the term 'fixed odds,' is probably more laughable. How many times have you been into a betting shop and seen changes to a football coupon in English soccer?

The answer is never....it's fixed odds.

[Santo]

http://odds.bestbetting.com/football/england/cups/carling-cup/matches/watford-v-tottenham/match-result/historic-odds?selections=369282372

Fixed indeed.

Bookie shops change their prices all the time. If they put prices up on Monday and offered them on Saturday they'd be bankrupt. Coupons are a different matter (and not what you started discussing), but even those are often changed these days.

[englishmike]

It looks like you don't follow markets much because most soccer prices tend to move all over the place, to such an extend that I don't understand that certain bookies (the slow or non moving ones) are still in business.

Have you considered that maybe they know what they're doing?

[englishmike]

http://odds.bestbetting.com/football...ions=369282372

Fixed indeed.

Bookie shops change their prices all the time. If they put prices up on Monday and offered them on Saturday they'd be bankrupt. Coupons are a different matter (and not what you started discussing), but even those are often changed these days.

Ahhhh coupons are different.....coupons are never changed and are reffered to as fixed odds for that reason, if you continue to dismiss this simeple fact theres not much more I can say.

[Santo]

As for Coupons, these used to be a goldmine. I spent a few years (and a few identities) betting them in London. There is a thread on a UK betting forum currently where people post what shops are honouring "stale" coupon prices, and others race to get them.. They're usually gone (or limited to £25-50 a bet) within 2 hours.

[Santo]

Ahhhh coupons are different.....coupons are never changed and are reffered to as fixed odds for that reason, if you continue to dismiss this simeple fact theres not much more I can say.

Since the inception of the tote, Fixed odds has always referred to getting a price which does not change after you bet it (i.e. 4-1) as opposed to the tote where the price is not set until the pool closes.

The fact you are using a different definition from that used in contemporary betting circles means it's no surprise you have difficulty communicating your thoughts.

[noyb]

Have you considered that maybe they know what they're doing?

oh so that's why these shops limit everybody that bets those slow moving lines (which according to you never move at all) to pennies????

i'm sorry, but you're wrong on both counts. fixed odds do move all the time, and books that move slow generally do lose out to people that bet those lines (which doesn't mean they're likely to go bankrupt as long as they have enough customers that don't watch line moves and just bet their favourite team).

[englishmike]

Since the inception of the tote, Fixed odds has always referred to getting a price which does not change after you bet it (i.e. 4-1) as opposed to the tote where the price is not set until the pool closes.

The fact you are using a different definition from that used in contemporary betting circles means it's no surprise you have difficulty communicating your thoughts.

I defer to your superior knowledge. You'll have to ask the books that went 6-1 about Aston Villa winning at Arsenal for the whole week two weeks ago why they did that. If what you're saying is true, English Soccer would be like baseball, with every line the same as the next. How do you explain why they're all different, depending on a traders view of a game?

[englishmike]

As for Coupons, these used to be a goldmine. I spent a few years (and a few identities) betting them in London. There is a thread on a UK betting forum currently where people post what shops are honouring "stale" coupon prices, and others race to get them.. They're usually gone (or limited to £25-50 a bet) within 2 hours.

why do Independent bookmakers offer their clients 'best price,'
of all the books? using your logic they'd be broke. Barry Dennis offers 'best price,' and does so because he knows most of his players bet 7 team accumalators.

[englishmike]

To end this temporarily, here's what I'll do. I'll post the lines next Monday for the following weekends games, in all divisions including Scotish and non-league, I'll use Ladbokes. I'll then repost the same lines Friday and we'll see how many have moved. If I'm wrong I'll apologise and accept I've made a mistake. Should be interesting.

[Mudcat]

I'm sorry Mike but Santo is absolutely right.

Cursed as I am with a very detailed memory, it reminds me of when someone started a thread about how Bet365 cuts limits and you ridiculed them and called them names and even (as I recall) posted a Live Chat you had with Bet365 to prove your point.

Problem was you were just on the wrong side. You were arguing against common knowledge based on a preponderance of experience.


I don't know how you get in these positions but every word Santo is saying sounds right-on-the-money to this professional bettor.




But that is only the latest twist in this thread which has been quite strange from the get-go. In the words of John Lennon: "Most peculiar mama."

[HeeeHAWWWW]

If what you're saying is true, English Soccer would be like baseball, with every line the same as the next. How do you explain why they're all different, depending on a traders view of a game?

Bigger juice, especially on 1x2. Stan has 10% profit margins on that, the greedy *****. Lots of room for major differences with that sort of range - for example, Man Utd vs Blackburn tonight:

Canbet 1.64 3.60 5.10
Coral 1.57 4.00 5.50
Jennings 1.70 3.65 5.50
Ladbrokes 1.53 3.75 6.50
Stan 1.62 3.50 5.00
Tote 1.44 3.75 6.50

Even with those wild differences, the best prices together aren't an arb - only 99%.

However, the Asian Handicap odds are very much like US sports, cos the juice is lower. All very close together - mansion, 188, 12bet, sbo & pinnacle will rarely stray far from each other, because if they do at 7-10c juice it becomes an arb and gets clobbered fast. The other books have a little more leeway cos of higher juice, but they're liable to get arbed against the big 5 above if they're far out of line either.

[APK]

Have you considered that maybe they know what they're doing?

I know what they're doing, they're humping the mistress instead of following the market.

Have you considered following odds on a few matches for a week or so?

Let's start with the 'A' from Austria:

LASK Linz – SK Sturm Graz opened at 1.85 with a few bookies, average price is now 1.71

[englishmike]

I'm sorry Mike but Santo is absolutely right.

Cursed as I am with a very detailed memory, it reminds me of when someone started a thread about how Bet365 cuts limits and you ridiculed them and called them names and even (as I recall) posted a Live Chat you had with Bet365 to prove your point.

Problem was you were just on the wrong side. You were arguing against common knowledge based on a preponderance of experience.


I don't know how you get in these positions but every word Santo is saying sounds right-on-the-money to this professional bettor.




But that is only the latest twist in this thread which has been quite strange from the get-go. In the words of John Lennon: "Most peculiar mama."

Its all good Cat, I have absolutely no problems with other posters arguing or disagreeing with me, it's the reason why this is a good forum. I'm merely saying, to clarify, a lot of odds don't move after they've been set when refering specifically to UK soccer, that's all. And cursed with a memory as I am, I can only argue about my own experiences, if I haven't been limited at Bet365, I haven't been limited. People seem unable to comprehend everyone has different experiences,they're so busy looking for 'sharp' numbers and 'stale' lines they forget how cap a sport and actually pick winners.

[englishmike]

I know what they're doing, they're humping the mistress instead of following the market.

Have you considered following odds on a few matches for a week or so?

Let's start with the 'A' from Austria:

LASK Linz – SK Sturm Graz opened at 1.85 with a few bookies, average price is now 1.71

APK: With respect, I've made it VERY clear throughout the whole thread I'm talking specifically and unequivically about UK soccer, i'm sure 25 euros could shift the Graz price, that's why i'd be happy to post Ladbokes full list next Monday and we can see how many stay the same.

I have a living to earn, later.