fishboy

[kobefanatic]

Bringing out the best in players is a key component of winning. Lebron is one of the best in the league at doing that. It's taking medicore players and making them look a lot better than what they really are. It's about having the skill to create chemistry between you and your team. Look at the Cavs. Lebron is an expert at doing that.

the cavs roster has guys that can actually score and do something, unlike those in LAL, kobe tried to get the best out of those bums but to no avail, watch the games he passes the ball and those bums either fumble a pass/ brick an open shot so he just took it upon himself to take them into the playoffs, look at those lakers player before
smush not even in the league anymore
kwame not even have a contract right now( was used sparingly in detroit)
mihm out of the league
radmanovic couldn't even get any PT in golden state even before he was hurt again
cook didn't even play significant minutes with whoever team that he went to for the past 2 years
george couldn't even crack the rotation in the undermanned Golden state, got PT late in the season when they were seriously undermanned
granting mckie and shammond williams are retired because of age
playing with kobe made those guys better more than what other people think, where were they after they left the lakers? if they're good players or even some pieces missing to make a championship team then they should be picked up by the other teams
kobe pushed gasol to be a better player right now than he was before, if gasol's that good before he went to LAL he should at least win a single playoff game with his decent team

[Bradyd]

the cavs roster has guys that can actually score and do something, unlike those in LAL, kobe tried to get the best out of those bums but to no avail, watch the games he passes the ball and those bums either fumble a pass/ brick an open shot so he just took it upon himself to take them into the playoffs, look at those lakers player before
smush not even in the league anymore
kwame not even have a contract right now( was used sparingly in detroit)
mihm out of the league
radmanovic couldn't even get any PT in golden state even before he was hurt again
cook didn't even play significant minutes with whoever team that he went to for the past 2 years
george couldn't even crack the rotation in the undermanned Golden state, got PT late in the season when they were seriously undermanned
granting mckie and shammond williams are retired because of age
playing with kobe made those guys better more than what other people think, where were they after they left the lakers? if they're good players or even some pieces missing to make a championship team then they should be picked up by the other teams
kobe pushed gasol to be a better player right now than he was before, if gasol's that good before he went to LAL he should at least win a single playoff game with his decent team

The Laker squad didn't change much. They needed a superstar, Gasol. Gasol was a beast before LA, and he is a beast now. Remember, Gasol is in his prime right now... Kobe didn't somehow transform him from a medicore player to a superstar. He was already one. And being a superstar has nothing to do with winning, being on a good team does. Because if being a superstar alone meant winning, than Kobe should have been able to led his team to a playoff series win. In the 3 years Shaq left and pre-Gasol: Kobe either didn't make the playoffs or lost in the first round. So if you are going to play the "he isnt a superstar because his team couldn't win" card, you better understand that your argument points the finger at Kobe also.
You need another superstar to win in this league. Kobe was only a winner when he has a superstar. Not saying anything is wrong with that, but to bash Lebron for wanting to play with another superstar is insanity at it's finest..

[kobefanatic]

The Laker squad didn't change much. They needed a superstar, Gasol. Gasol was a beast before LA, and he is a beast now. Remember, Gasol is in his prime right now... Kobe didn't somehow transform him from a medicore player to a superstar. He was already one. And being a superstar has nothing to do with winning, being on a good team does. Because if being a superstar alone meant winning, than Kobe should have been able to led his team to a playoff series win. In the 3 years Shaq left and pre-Gasol: Kobe either didn't make the playoffs or lost in the first round. So if you are going to play the "he isnt a superstar because his team couldn't win" card, you better understand that your argument points the finger at Kobe also.
You need another superstar to win in this league. Kobe was only a winner when he has a superstar. Not saying anything is wrong with that, but to bash Lebron for wanting to play with another superstar is insanity at it's finest..

gasol is an all star, gasol was a good player, all star level but he isn't a beast, guess you forgot the soft labels? memphis had a much more decent team back then than LAL, mike miller,shane battier eddie jones, bobby jackson and they couldn't even win one single playoff game, i didn't say he was a mediocre player when did i say that? he was an all star but not a superstar, kobe didn't eneter the playoffs the 1st year he was injured for the latter part of the season, lost in the playoff because of his bum teammates, where are those LAL players now? 05-07, kobe didn't even have a decent team back then, if those players are even half decent then they should be able to contribute on any other NBA team right now, only lamar is the exception he's not suited to be a 2nd fiddle, say what you want and cheer on the heat and lebron let's see what will your excuses be if they didn't win this year , it's hard to argue with someone who thinks that LAL had a decent team back then and gasol as a superstar in memphis

[Bradyd]

gasol is an all star, gasol was a good player, all star level but he isn't a beast, guess you forgot the soft labels? memphis had a much more decent team back then than LAL, mike miller,shane battier eddie jones, bobby jackson and they couldn't even win one single playoff game, i didn't say he was a mediocre player when did i say that? he was an all star but not a superstar, kobe didn't eneter the playoffs the 1st year he was injured for the latter part of the season, lost in the playoff because of his bum teammates, where are those LAL players now? 05-07, kobe didn't even have a decent team back then, if those players are even half decent then they should be able to contribute on any other NBA team right now, only lamar is the exception he's not suited to be a 2nd fiddle, say what you want and cheer on the heat and lebron let's see what will your excuses be if they didn't win this year , it's hard to argue with someone who thinks that LAL had a decent team back then and gasol as a superstar in memphis

You are such a homer that it's painful. You give nothing but excuses for Kobe. Kobe was injured. He didn't have this. He didn't have that. Enough with the bull! I will let you keep your misguided, inaccurate, and headscratch worthy opinions as it's pretty obvious that you can't stand if Kobe is held to the same standard you are holding other players on. And remember, I'm taking YOUR standards and applying them to the person you worship. You started this conversation trying to bash a player you are fearful of because he decided join a team capabable of dethroning the Lakers. The Lakers just won the championship, why do you feel the need to bash another team or player? Your team is on top of the world right now. Savor the moment. The only way I don't see you doing that is if you are fearful of next year. I didn't want to call you out but it's becoming ridicious. Just relax and accept whatever happens next year. Personally I don't know and could no way predict anything right now. But it doesn't matter who wins to me, just as long as some good basketball is played..
And I'm not a Lebron or Miami Heat fan. I am a NBA fan. I don't have a team or a favorite player. But make no mistake, I understand the game and I will call BS when I see it. You are full of it Kobefanatic!!.....I guess that name says it all..

[$Burm$]

kobe is a baller, and lebron is a tool...1st post of the day

[kobefanatic]

You are such a homer that it's painful. You give nothing but excuses for Kobe. Kobe was injured. He didn't have this. He didn't have that. Enough with the bull! I will let you keep your misguided, inaccurate, and headscratch worthy opinions as it's pretty obvious that you can't stand if Kobe is held to the same standard you are holding other players on. And remember, I'm taking YOUR standards and applying them to the person you worship. You started this conversation trying to bash a player you are fearful of because he decided join a team capabable of dethroning the Lakers. The Lakers just won the championship, why do you feel the need to bash another team or player? Your team is on top of the world right now. Savor the moment. The only way I don't see you doing that is if you are fearful of next year. I didn't want to call you out but it's becoming ridicious. Just relax and accept whatever happens next year. Personally I don't know and could no way predict anything right now. But it doesn't matter who wins to me, just as long as some good basketball is played..
And I'm not a Lebron or Miami Heat fan. I am a NBA fan. I don't have a team or a favorite player. But make no mistake, I understand the game and I will call BS when I see it. You are full of it Kobefanatic!!.....I guess that name says it all..

your opinions about the lakers roster are really ridiculous 05-07 roster is shit, and you're naming gasol a superstar in memphis is laughable, gasol was good in memphis but not great, not comparable to the likes of kobe,wade,duncan,kg. gasol is an all star at best not superstar, he was labeled soft by most of the NBA fans when he was in memphis and you call him a beast , you just want to make kobe look bad while making lebron look good, i've got no problem with the rest of the heat just the queen who's nothing but a quitter choker in the playoffs, making a fake elbow excuse when's he about to face boston, so that he will have an excuse ready when he loses, i can't wait for next season let's see what will that superteam do, i hope wade wins the regular season MVP, so that we will see another weird reaction from lebron

[nikeboyz]

your opinions about the lakers roster are really ridiculous 05-07 roster is shit, and you're naming gasol a superstar in memphis is laughable, gasol was good in memphis but not great, not comparable to the likes of kobe,wade,duncan,kg. gasol is an all star at best not superstar, he was labeled soft by most of the NBA fans when he was in memphis and you call him a beast , you just want to make kobe look bad while making lebron look good, i've got no problem with the rest of the heat just the queen who's nothing but a quitter choker in the playoffs, making a fake elbow excuse when's he about to face boston, so that he will have an excuse ready when he loses, i can't wait for next season let's see what will that superteam do, i hope wade wins the regular season MVP, so that we will see another weird reaction from lebron

Yeah that was BS. He wasnt fooling anyone with that

[kobefanatic]

Yeah that was BS. He wasnt fooling anyone with that

i hope your wade wins the MVP so that we will see lebron frowning just like in the all star game

[Goat Milk]

Brad,

You make me laugh. You aren't reading any of the things I am saying. DId I say rings make you go down as the best ever. Do you know why Kobe will go down as better than JOrdan if he wins this year?

Please tell me 1 team Jordan played that comes even remotely close to this Miami Heat team. The teams Jordan faced in the finals were not even close to as good as the Celtics team was this year bro. The Bulls were dominate for 6 straight years, no one could even compete. The league is different today.

I didn't say Lebron isn't clutch did I? The question was, "If it comes down to the last shot of the game, who do you want taking the shot for the win"

Out of 191nba players, 75% said Kobe, 3% said Lebron. You have yet to answer this question......

[bestpick]

look at how the number 1 lebron fan argue with everyone here

[Muggy]

Man, I am so glad Fisher's back. Dude's been one of my favorite Lakers since day 1. I was rocking an away Fisher jersey and people were glowering at me. I couldn't help but smile. But I'm sure if he were on any other team I'd hate his guts. Definitely one of those "love him on your team, hate him otherwise" deals. One of my buddies is always reminding me how he dragged Monta down in that one Warriors game and how dirty Fish is, yada yada.

[kobefanatic]

questions about the lakers players of 05-07? kwame can he catch a freaking ball to get involved in the offense consistently, was lamar odom consistent enough to play 2nd fiddle, was luke a good 3rd option?

[Bradyd]

your opinions about the lakers roster are really ridiculous 05-07 roster is shit, and you're naming gasol a superstar in memphis is laughable, gasol was good in memphis but not great, not comparable to the likes of kobe,wade,duncan,kg. gasol is an all star at best not superstar, he was labeled soft by most of the NBA fans when he was in memphis and you call him a beast , you just want to make kobe look bad while making lebron look good, i've got no problem with the rest of the heat just the queen who's nothing but a quitter choker in the playoffs, making a fake elbow excuse when's he about to face boston, so that he will have an excuse ready when he loses, i can't wait for next season let's see what will that superteam do, i hope wade wins the regular season MVP, so that we will see another weird reaction from lebron

My opinions about the Lakers from 05-07 are also facts. They needed 1 piece to be serious title contenders. They got that piece and they became serious title contenders. How many pieces did you think it would take for the best player in the league at that time to get things going?

And Gasol numbers have essentially been the same. This past season he averaged more rebounds but everything else pretty much stayed the same. A rebound or two and higher FG %. How does those 2 things all of a sudden turn you into a Superstar? It doesn't. He was already one. It's all about the perception. The perception that he wasn't anywhere near his playing level now. WRONG. And we have to realize that all superstars are not created equally. Meaning you shouldn't expect the same thing from them all. Lebron, Wade, Kobe are all superstars. But they are on a different level than Melo, Howard and Paul. Who are on a different level than Nash, KG, Duncan. You see they're different levels of superstars, with different types of games, that have different types of roles.

And I am not trying to make Kobe look bad. I am trying to show you that the same thing you are bashing Lebron for, Kobe has done. But yet you have nothing but excuses for Kobe. Kobe has failed before. He doesn't need any excuses from you. Jordan has failed. He doesn't need any excuses from me or the rest of the sports world. And Lebron has failed. He doesn't need any excuses from his fans. Failure is part of the process. So for you to think that Kobe hasn't failed, or that he never did anything questionable like Lebron, he didn't need a superstar to win, his injuries are somehow worst than the many other athletes who also play through injuries, or his situations were different than everybody else, you are completely wrong. You may not have flat out said some of those things, but this conversation clearly states your views. It would be nice for you to acknowledge that for a change. Frankly I don't even know why you are wasting your precious time talking about Lebron, your team won and you guys are the 2 time defending champs. Just enjoy the moment and watch your team defend it next season...

[Bradyd]

Brad,

You make me laugh. You aren't reading any of the things I am saying. Did I say rings make you go down as the best ever. Do you know why Kobe will go down as better than JOrdan if he wins this year?

Please tell me 1 team Jordan played that comes even remotely close to this Miami Heat team. The teams Jordan faced in the finals were not even close to as good as the Celtics team was this year bro. The Bulls were dominate for 6 straight years, no one could even compete. The league is different today.

I didn't say Lebron isn't clutch did I? The question was, "If it comes down to the last shot of the game, who do you want taking the shot for the win"

Out of 191nba players, 75% said Kobe, 3% said Lebron. You have yet to answer this question......

I'm sorry, I guess I just somehow got the impression you thought rings decided who the best player ever was when you said: If kobe wins a rings this year, he will be the best ever!!! Now that I take a second look, that clearly doesn't not seem like rings decide who the best player is.

Just because the Bulls dominated the 90's doesn't mean the league was watered down. It just means the Bulls were that good. I'm not going to get into the business of comparing different decades. For one it's nearly impossible to do. And probably most importantly, it takes away from the Champions in each era. One could argue that that early 2000 Lakers playing the Nets were not a challenge, or that the 2009 Lakers beating the Magic 4-1 wasn't competitive, or that the Spurs lock out season championship didn't count because only half a season was played. Yes, I've heard it all before and I don't like any of it. So I will just say you do you own research, look at those teams, hall of famers, and how competitive the league acutally was and make you own conclusion. I don't take away from Champions, that's not cool at all in my book..

You may not have said Lebron wasn't a closer, but you sure didn't he say he was one. And as far as your poll, what's your point? I would take Kobe too. I guess you missed my point in which I said: the Best Player isn't always the most clutch, but the best players usually are clutch. Personally give me Lebron the last 5 minutes of the game, then give me Kobe to take the last shot.

[kobefanatic]

My opinions about the Lakers from 05-07 are also facts. They needed 1 piece to be serious title contenders. They got that piece and they became serious title contenders. How many pieces did you think it would take for the best player in the league at that time to get things going?

And Gasol numbers have essentially been the same. This past season he averaged more rebounds but everything else pretty much stayed the same. A rebound or two and higher FG %. How does those 2 things all of a sudden turn you into a Superstar? It doesn't. He was already one. It's all about the perception. The perception that he wasn't anywhere near his playing level now. WRONG. And we have to realize that all superstars are not created equally. Meaning you shouldn't expect the same thing from them all. Lebron, Wade, Kobe are all superstars. But they are on a different level than Melo, Howard and Paul. Who are on a different level than Nash, KG, Duncan. You see they're different levels of superstars, with different types of games, that have different types of roles.

And I am not trying to make Kobe look bad. I am trying to show you that the same thing you are bashing Lebron for, Kobe has done. But yet you have nothing but excuses for Kobe. Kobe has failed before. He doesn't need any excuses from you. Jordan has failed. He doesn't need any excuses from me or the rest of the sports world. And Lebron has failed. He doesn't need any excuses from his fans. Failure is part of the process. So for you to think that Kobe hasn't failed, or that he never did anything questionable like Lebron, he didn't need a superstar to win, his injuries are somehow worst than the many other athletes who also play through injuries, or his situations were different than everybody else, you are completely wrong. You may not have flat out said some of those things, but this conversation clearly states your views. It would be nice for you to acknowledge that for a change. Frankly I don't even know why you are wasting your precious time talking about Lebron, your team won and you guys are the 2 time defending champs. Just enjoy the moment and watch your team defend it next season...

can you please evaluate each player from the lakers roster 05-07 one except for kobe
odom- consistent enough to be a 2nd fiddle?
kwame- can he catch the ball consistently to be the low post presence they needed?
smush- can he defend other PG's well enough?
luke- is he a good third option? he was the 3rd option back then in case you forgot
radmanovic (07)- can he be a consistent shooter to knock down those kick out passes?
bynum- haven't developed that time
turiaf- energy guy but is he a good enough rebounder to be depended on the boards?
farmar- was a young rookie back then but thrown into the fire because of that dumbass smush
cook- big man that's allergic to rebounds
shammond williams- near retirement when they got him, reason to lure KG because he's KG's cousin
aaron mckie-nothing left in the tank and hampered by injury most of the time
vujacic- shooter that can't shoot

what do you think of gasol? which tier does he belong to? 1st tier or 2nd tier? 1st tier= superstars 2nd tier= all stars right?

[Goat Milk]

I'm sorry, I guess I just somehow got the impression you thought rings decided who the best player ever was when you said: If kobe wins a rings this year, he will be the best ever!!! Now that I take a second look, that clearly doesn't not seem like rings decide who the best player is.

Just because the Bulls dominated the 90's doesn't mean the league was watered down. It just means the Bulls were that good. I'm not going to get into the business of comparing different decades. For one it's nearly impossible to do. And probably most importantly, it takes away from the Champions in each era. One could argue that that early 2000 Lakers playing the Nets were not a challenge, or that the 2009 Lakers beating the Magic 4-1 wasn't competitive, or that the Spurs lock out season championship didn't count because only half a season was played. Yes, I've heard it all before and I don't like any of it. So I will just say you do you own research, look at those teams, hall of famers, and how competitive the league acutally was and make you own conclusion. I don't take away from Champions, that's not cool at all in my book..

You may not have said Lebron wasn't a closer, but you sure didn't he say he was one. And as far as your poll, what's your point? I would take Kobe too. I guess you missed my point in which I said: the Best Player isn't always the most clutch, but the best players usually are clutch. Personally give me Lebron the last 5 minutes of the game, then give me Kobe to take the last shot.

Brad, the reason why I say Kobe is the best this year if he wins because He will have 8 finals appearances and 6 rings, and the last ring being the most important. If Bryant wins the ring that means he did it against 2 of the top 15 players ever to play the game (no, Wade and Lebron are not even top 20 in my book right now, but they will be top 10 when they both retire with multiple rings).

Jordan never beat 2/3 best players in the world on one team, ever. Not even close bro. If Kobe does this, it will be something no other superstar has ever done in their career. Would never take Lebron in the last 5 minutes of the game. Stats show Lebron is more efficient but stats also show Lou Williams the backup PG for Philly is the 4th best closer in the game.

Give me Bryant any day of the weak with 5 minutes left in a game. Lebron is built for the regular season my man, just like Peyton Manning. Cannot carry a team alone when it most matters. Wade did it in 06.

Anyway we will see how it pans out, but what are you going to say when Wade wins MVP this year over Lebron?

[Bradyd]

can you please evaluate each player from the lakers roster 05-07 one except for kobe
odom- consistent enough to be a 2nd fiddle?
kwame- can he catch the ball consistently to be the low post presence they needed?
smush- can he defend other PG's well enough?
luke- is he a good third option? he was the 3rd option back then in case you forgot
radmanovic (07)- can he be a consistent shooter to knock down those kick out passes?
bynum- haven't developed that time
turiaf- energy guy but is he a good enough rebounder to be depended on the boards?
farmar- was a young rookie back then but thrown into the fire because of that dumbass smush
cook- big man that's allergic to rebounds
shammond williams- near retirement when they got him, reason to lure KG because he's KG's cousin
aaron mckie-nothing left in the tank and hampered by injury most of the time
vujacic- shooter that can't shoot

what do you think of gasol? which tier does he belong to? 1st tier or 2nd tier? 1st tier= superstars 2nd tier= all stars right?

Oh don't get me wrong, that Laker squad isn't anything to write home about. I'm just saying that adding a superstar with Kobe made them serious title contenders, no matter what the rest of the team looks like. Sure they would need role players, but they would still be title contenders.

And I don't consider 2nd tier players allstars. I still consider them superstars. Kobe, Wade, and Lebron are 1st tier. They are just on a different level than everyone else. Gasol would be in the 2nd tier with Howard, Paul, and Melo(he is pretty close to 1st tier) Gasol is what Pippen was to Jordan. A superstar, but is better being the guy#2 on a team..

[Bradyd]

Brad, the reason why I say Kobe is the best this year if he wins because He will have 8 finals appearances and 6 rings, and the last ring being the most important. If Bryant wins the ring that means he did it against 2 of the top 15 players ever to play the game (no, Wade and Lebron are not even top 20 in my book right now, but they will be top 10 when they both retire with multiple rings).

Jordan never beat 2/3 best players in the world on one team, ever. Not even close bro. If Kobe does this, it will be something no other superstar has ever done in their career. Would never take Lebron in the last 5 minutes of the game. Stats show Lebron is more efficient but stats also show Lou Williams the backup PG for Philly is the 4th best closer in the game.

Give me Bryant any day of the weak with 5 minutes left in a game. Lebron is built for the regular season my man, just like Peyton Manning. Cannot carry a team alone when it most matters. Wade did it in 06.

Anyway we will see how it pans out, but what are you going to say when Wade wins MVP this year over Lebron?

I presume you are talking about Wade and Lebron? If he beats Wade and Lebron in the championship, that would be awesome. But that won't be enough to surpass MJ in my book. Jordan transformed the NBA and he set the standard for players to strive for. In today's NBA, Jordan is still that standard. Kobe will never be that standard. Now to be fair, part of that reason is because Jordan was always more likeable than Kobe. However, Jordan's legacy speaks for itself.

I completely hear your Lou williams comment, which was actually pretty funny. But Lebron is statistically better than Kobe on an evening playing field. And after seeing both of them play extensively, I still would take Lebron in the last 5.
Nobody can carry a team alone. Lebron can't do it with his squad full of role players, and Kobe couldn't either. Wade did have Shaq to go to. And let's not forget, Lebron doesn't shut down in the playoffs. His teammates do.

As far as your MVP comment, Wade could very well win it. Wade is a beast remember. As of now, I would say Lebron would get it. I say that because I am assuming Lebron runs the point and if he does, he could average a triple double this coming season. I can't see how Wade would get MVP is Lebron does that..

[Bradyd]

As much fun as this debate is guys, I won't be able to continue it for a few days. (Going to Tampa with the family) If the debate is still going on when I get back, great! However if it's not, I won't go back into the archives to find this thread and regenerate it.

[kobefanatic]

Oh don't get me wrong, that Laker squad isn't anything to write home about. I'm just saying that adding a superstar with Kobe made them serious title contenders, no matter what the rest of the team looks like. Sure they would need role players, but they would still be title contenders.

And I don't consider 2nd tier players allstars. I still consider them superstars. Kobe, Wade, and Lebron are 1st tier. They are just on a different level than everyone else. Gasol would be in the 2nd tier with Howard, Paul, and Melo(he is pretty close to 1st tier) Gasol is what Pippen was to Jordan. A superstar, but is better being the guy#2 on a team..

that's not a deep team, sure getting gasol was such a blessing, but that team is not doesn't have enough role players, because those guys are really pitiful

i agree with your statement about gasol being more of a number 2 guy, but gasol isn't in the same breath with pippen, just want to be clear about how you consider players, because i consider the 2nd tier players all star types not superstars

[kobefanatic]

As much fun as this debate is guys, I won't be able to continue it for a few days. (Going to Tampa with the family) If the debate is still going on when I get back, great! However if it's not, I won't go back into the archives to find this thread and regenerate it.

have fun and have a safe trip just bump this one when you're back , i am sure goat will be happy to have a debate with you too