Horse Racing questions and answers

[JBEX]

amazing to the novice how much goes into getting a horse to perform at there best and cool to get a glimpse of it like you gave ..guess it's a natural thing fir you to see a young horse who shows a lot of potential but appears not to be spotted right or have races spaced optimally ... especially if the sire's army mule ..sure you would get the most out of her and probably as a young 3yo be an exciting prospect to work with .. you see lots of upside potential and feel it's not out of the question she could return to listed stakes races again ..pretty cool

spot at laurel would be perfect and get a little extra protection at a $65k tag..in addition allowance races at laurel probably more in her range vs the ones in arkansas or ky so there'd be a good path to follow .. if you got a horse like that via claim or just a trainer change seems like a challenge you would've relished to take on back when you were active

thought it was a $65k n2L claiming race
by what you said but see it's actually a race she'd qualify under the allowance n2L condition and not be up for sale .. $65k would be an odd amount for a clm n2L race and that's what made me look

[str]

Kind of agree, but only 3rd start, plus 2nd back after a long layoff. I'll defer to our mentor/master to critique.

When I saw the replay, it looked like the rider had discussed a lead change problem with the trainer prior to the race and was going to help or remind the horse to switch leads. But, just as the rider went to do that by shifting his weight from one stirrup to the other, the horse switched leads on it's own. Because they both occurred at the same time, it looked awkward and that is what that two stride oddity was. It just looked like something else maybe but that from my view was all that it was.

Overall, this horse IMO just has not learned the full art of running yet. Still a little green. It usually takes time to learn all the little things that goes on for a horse. Simply put, the horse is just not mentally up to speed yet but the ability is certainly there. I would look for an improvement over the next 2-3 races and will be happy to point out those subtleties when watching the reruns in the future.
Certainly a nice horse to follow. It has a ton of ability.

Thanks Madison.

[str]

thought it was a $65k n2L claiming race
by what you said but see it's actually a race she'd qualify under the allowance n2L condition and not be up for sale .. $65k would be an odd amount for a clm n2L race and that's what made me look

I thought I saw 62,500 but no biggie. That would make sense though, being 25% higher than a claiming 50k, which they probably offer now and then. That odd amount would allow for a claimed 50k horse to run back in the next claiming rank up without necessarily having to run in an allowance race.

The beauty of running for the 62,500 amount is it would allow you to win the same race twice. Once as a claimer, and again as an A other than maiden or claiming. Two wins in the same condition.

Is it somewhat of a gamble. Oh yeah. Welcome to the cat and mouse game of claiming. I did it all the time and people asked me why I didn't bet on the horses very often. It is stuff like this I was betting on. And a lot more than I would have bet at the windows.

[JBEX]

I thought I saw 62,500 but no biggie. That would make sense though, being 25% higher than a claiming 50k, which they probably offer now and then. That odd amount would allow for a claimed 50k horse to run back in the next claiming rank up without necessarily having to run in an allowance race.

The beauty of running for the 62,500 amount is it would allow you to win the same race twice. Once as a claimer, and again as an A other than maiden or claiming. Two wins in the same condition.

Is it somewhat of a gamble. Oh yeah. Welcome to the cat and mouse game of claiming. I did it all the time and people asked me why I didn't bet on the horses very often. It is stuff like this I was betting on. And a lot more than I would have bet at the windows.

my mistake ..think it is $62.5 ..really would seem about right for where WG is at this poin..whether it's two shots in the alw optional claimer or up from a 50k n2l if it was available

can see how these must be tough decisions ..to lose a 3yo via claim who shows some talent and goes on to win some nice races must be to say the least..frustrating

[batt33]

6 "Army Mules" at the OBS 2 year old in training sales. First one sold was a "homerun" $950'00. second highest of the day I believe.

[JBEX]

6 "Army Mules" at the OBS 2 year old in training sales. First one sold was a "homerun" $950'00. second highest of the day I believe.

yeah I see that..thanks batt

bought by the owners of army mule when he raced..dam sire violence is one of the best first out sires there is and horse has to be a beast with him on the bottom .. broken record I know but it's just extraordinary considering AM's modest fee at the time of conception

[JBEX]

looks like the 2nd one sold for $175k ..you're right it's 6 altogether

[lesterdymond]

STR,

How may races can the dope or Lasix give a horse an edge if any ?

[str]

STR,

How may races can the dope or Lasix give a horse an edge if any ?

Do you mean bute when you say dope ?

As for Lasix , what it does is allow the horse to not bleed which chocks them up . That way they can run to their true ability. That’s why you can’t take them off and put them back on . Once you are “ON “ the horse must stay on Lasix except for the Grade 1 races. And there are other things that can help prevent bleeding but it doesn’t get them high, or lit up, just anti bleeding.
Let me know about the dope clarification and I will explain it.
Hope that makes sense .
Thanks Lester.

[batt33]

looks like the 2nd one sold for $175k ..you're right it's 6 altogether

3rd army mule went for 22,000 dam is a producer I would say some conformation issues. It will be interesting to see what hip 554 goes for as a nice pedigree . Same consignor as the 950,000 horse

[JBEX]

3rd army mule went for 22,000 dam is a producer I would say some conformation issues. It will be interesting to see what hip 554 goes for as a nice pedigree . Same consignor as the 950,000 horse

yes i saw the 3rd one went for 22k and agree with what you said about same consignor might be a good sign .. I think the remaining 3 are going tomorrow

[JBEX]

by army mule..colonial downs R7 #5 susan's mule (9-2)@ 3:35

[str]

by army mule..colonial downs R7 #5 susan's mule (9-2)@ 3:35

This is a nice , solid race. The outside horses as well as the Army Mule will be a race in itself. All three like to do the same thing.
If any of those end up the winner, it will be very well deserved.

[str]

3rd army mule went for 22,000 dam is a producer I would say some conformation issues. It will be interesting to see what hip 554 goes for as a nice pedigree . Same consignor as the 950,000 horse

I would throw a party if I got one for 22k. These Army Mules seem to overcome big odds regularly from the auction block.

[lesterdymond]

STR I was curious about the steroid use too and working time frames. Trainers like Moquett, Rice who been in hot water before.

[str]

STR I was curious about the steroid use too and working time frames. Trainers like Moquett, Rice who been in hot water before.

Ok. Steroids.

They were legal to use, and really did help horses gain weight, muscle, sometimes aggressiveness, more apatite, which led to more nutrition, and overall growth and better health . That is what you would see. But that was long before it was realized by the people giving it as well as the trainers, owners, and everyone involved including the FDA , that there were serious side affects that came with them. Now, I can already hear the skeptics hollering, "you should have known better., What the hell were you thinking".
Well, I along with the majority of people out there were thinking exactly what they had learned and been taught. Turns out, what we were taught, and what was 100% legal had really bad long term side affects. As a result, when studies proved this as well as the Lance Armstrong stuff , the Major League Baseball stuff, NFL stuff, and all competition both people and animals, it was banned.

For the record, both my wife and I recall breaking a thermometer so we could flick the mercury balls all over the place, and then go eat some candy and lick your fingers. All this while the parents were smoking cigarettes' in the next room, and might fall asleep smoking at night with NO smoke detectors but little kids in the house to grow up breathing that 2nd hand smoke. So please take a minute to realize that many things did not yet exist, like no seat belts, no helmets for bike riders, skate board riders, every kid had a BB gun at minimum, drunk drivers were everywhere. Heck, drunks passed out in the parks were everywhere. And this was in Wash. D.,C. Capital of the United States. Every TV show has the funny drunk guy in it. So please keep in in perceptive.
Once steroids were banned, that did not stop people from using it but over a time, people started getting caught and we all know how badly that ended.

The actual banning of all steroidal products did not occur until around 2003? +/-. I'm not sure, but any of us old enough to remember, we all knew all about it.
I am not positive because I was not involved anymore with the training BUT, if I'm not mistaken, you can administer steroids today in some instances while out of training, however, I have no idea about the timelines involved with that.

Whatever the case, racing has cleaned that up and without knowing the exacts with withdrawal times, I think it is safe to say that you cannot have steroids on the grounds of a racetrack except for a medical emergency that would have to be administered by a licensed vet, recorded and documented on paper, and that paper work given to ,the Stewards.
To be clear from when it was still legal, at NO TIME was a Trainer allowed to administer ANY injectable whatsoever. Did it happen? YES ! Did I ever do it. Absolutely NOT. Did most trainers do it? NO. Did every track have there handful of trainers that DID do it. Unfortunately, yes.
A few years before I left the game, a steroidal came out and trainers loved using it. I had a horse with a ton of deep congestion in his lungs that seemed immune to everything we tried to eradicate it. He had not run yet so he was a 3 year old baby in the spring. The name of that crap escapes me, probably willed that name out of my head, but I used it, and I absolutely HATED IT. No, wait, I F'in hated it!
I remember getting so upset one morning that I threw it in the muck pit and told my entire barn, heck probably the entire stable area I was so pissed, that we would NEVER have that in my barn again. I really lost my temper. It was very near the end of my career, my mom had passed away, which was the main reason I had stayed as I was mentally done around 1991,2-3 ish but she was still alive. And I was NOT going to leave the track while she was living. It would have shattered her and she had fought alcoholism and at the time was beating it, and there was no way I was going to disturb that.

I guess that is a story for another day but to finish up, with steroids, I saw for the 1st time in my life, what steroids could do to a horse in a bad way. I had seen all the positive effects of it and like most, assumed it was fine, but as we all know today, it is not.

I do not think you should worry at all about steroids Lester. In todays drug tests they are looking for that as hard or harder than probably anything else. I could be wrong, but I think it is long gone and if used, that trainer will be long gone in no time at all.

Whatever todays working time frames are, they are way way out as far as having any in a horses system at the time of the race. Months not days if I remember correctly.

Hope that helped. Didn't mean to go off the rails for a bit but figured you might want to know more than a yes or no answer.

[Madison]

When I saw the replay, it looked like the rider had discussed a lead change problem with the trainer prior to the race and was going to help or remind the horse to switch leads. But, just as the rider went to do that by shifting his weight from one stirrup to the other, the horse switched leads on it's own. Because they both occurred at the same time, it looked awkward and that is what that two stride oddity was. It just looked like something else maybe but that from my view was all that it was.

Overall, this horse IMO just has not learned the full art of running yet. Still a little green. It usually takes time to learn all the little things that goes on for a horse. Simply put, the horse is just not mentally up to speed yet but the ability is certainly there. I would look for an improvement over the next 2-3 races and will be happy to point out those subtleties when watching the reruns in the future.
Certainly a nice horse to follow. It has a ton of ability.

Thanks Madison.

Thank you sir. All things are never ending eye openers to a newbie like me.

[Madison]

Ok. Steroids.

They were legal to use, and really did help horses gain weight, muscle, sometimes aggressiveness, more apatite, which led to more nutrition, and overall growth and better health . That is what you would see. But that was long before it was realized by the people giving it as well as the trainers, owners, and everyone involved including the FDA , that there were serious side affects that came with them. Now, I can already hear the skeptics hollering, "you should have known better., What the hell were you thinking".
Well, I along with the majority of people out there were thinking exactly what they had learned and been taught. Turns out, what we were taught, and what was 100% legal had really bad long term side affects. As a result, when studies proved this as well as the Lance Armstrong stuff , the Major League Baseball stuff, NFL stuff, and all competition both people and animals, it was banned.

For the record, both my wife and I recall breaking a thermometer so we could flick the mercury balls all over the place, and then go eat some candy and lick your fingers. All this while the parents were smoking cigarettes' in the next room, and might fall asleep smoking at night with NO smoke detectors but little kids in the house to grow up breathing that 2nd hand smoke. So please take a minute to realize that many things did not yet exist, like no seat belts, no helmets for bike riders, skate board riders, every kid had a BB gun at minimum, drunk drivers were everywhere. Heck, drunks passed out in the parks were everywhere. And this was in Wash. D.,C. Capital of the United States. Every TV show has the funny drunk guy in it. So please keep in in perceptive.
Once steroids were banned, that did not stop people from using it but over a time, people started getting caught and we all know how badly that ended.

The actual banning of all steroidal products did not occur until around 2003? +/-. I'm not sure, but any of us old enough to remember, we all knew all about it.
I am not positive because I was not involved anymore with the training BUT, if I'm not mistaken, you can administer steroids today in some instances while out of training, however, I have no idea about the timelines involved with that.

Whatever the case, racing has cleaned that up and without knowing the exacts with withdrawal times, I think it is safe to say that you cannot have steroids on the grounds of a racetrack except for a medical emergency that would have to be administered by a licensed vet, recorded and documented on paper, and that paper work given to ,the Stewards.
To be clear from when it was still legal, at NO TIME was a Trainer allowed to administer ANY injectable whatsoever. Did it happen? YES ! Did I ever do it. Absolutely NOT. Did most trainers do it? NO. Did every track have there handful of trainers that DID do it. Unfortunately, yes.
A few years before I left the game, a steroidal came out and trainers loved using it. I had a horse with a ton of deep congestion in his lungs that seemed immune to everything we tried to eradicate it. He had not run yet so he was a 3 year old baby in the spring. The name of that crap escapes me, probably willed that name out of my head, but I used it, and I absolutely HATED IT. No, wait, I F'in hated it!
I remember getting so upset one morning that I threw it in the muck pit and told my entire barn, heck probably the entire stable area I was so pissed, that we would NEVER have that in my barn again. I really lost my temper. It was very near the end of my career, my mom had passed away, which was the main reason I had stayed as I was mentally done around 1991,2-3 ish but she was still alive. And I was NOT going to leave the track while she was living. It would have shattered her and she had fought alcoholism and at the time was beating it, and there was no way I was going to disturb that.

I guess that is a story for another day but to finish up, with steroids, I saw for the 1st time in my life, what steroids could do to a horse in a bad way. I had seen all the positive effects of it and like most, assumed it was fine, but as we all know today, it is not.

I do not think you should worry at all about steroids Lester. In todays drug tests they are looking for that as hard or harder than probably anything else. I could be wrong, but I think it is long gone and if used, that trainer will be long gone in no time at all.

Whatever todays working time frames are, they are way way out as far as having any in a horses system at the time of the race. Months not days if I remember correctly.

Hope that helped. Didn't mean to go off the rails for a bit but figured you might want to know more than a yes or no answer.

I grew up gambling on greyhounds (70's) at Seabrook (NH). As a non smoker I often joked that I would probably die from lung cancer as the 2nd hand smoke in the clubhouse was as dense as the strongest fog you've ever seen. But, I'm still here and lungs are not my largest health issue.

[lesterdymond]

Thank you for the best responses STR

[JBEX]

by army mule..colonial downs R7 #5 susan's mule (9-2)@ 3:35

half the field is scratched including susan's mule..don't get it with a fast track

[batt33]

yes i saw the 3rd one went for 22k and agree with what you said about same consignor might be a good sign .. I think the remaining 3 are going tomorrow

554 went for 350,000 love the trainer! 627 is an out

[batt33]

I would throw a party if I got one for 22k. These Army Mules seem to overcome big odds regularly from the auction block.

. When I get some time going to take a closer look at some video's to see why the price.
Took a look, I was hoping for a head on shot or walking away shot never did show it. I don't have a real good eye looking from the side.

[JBEX]

554 went for 350,000 love the trainer! 627 is an out

thanks batt..excellent results at this sale to say the least ..there's still another I believe @ 746

[JBEX]

554 went for 350,000 love the trainer! 627 is an out

who's the trainer going to be ?

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: FG R8. the horse in question is the #3 Ancient World. cost 525K. a 3-year-old. If able watch the replay. Interested to get your take on Him. You can access the PP's thru into mischief.
Not sure of the quality of the field he beat but a heck of a performance. THX in advance.

[JBEX]

thanks batt..excellent results at this sale to say the least ..there's still another i believe @ 746

rna @ 90k

[batt33]

who's the trainer going to be ?

Cherie DeVaux

[batt33]

Black Tie Optional Update ( Not this time)



Black Tie Optional is doing well at Wavertree Stables. As you will see in the photo, he is going through a bit of a growth spurt and awkward phase, but he continues to catch the eye. He remains on a weekly speed work routine and can be seen galloping above. When purchasing this colt, we never had plans for him being a particularly early type. Based on his physical changes, patience and time is only going to benefit him. None of these are negative things, but they will be taken into consideration when we decide on timing for shipping him to the track.

https://cdnb-media.myracehorse.com/blog/video/MyMovie180_1741912027739/MP4/MyMovie180_1741912027739.mp4

[batt33]

ups and downs of horse racing.....
Real Savvy Update



Real Savvy had his second breeze yesterday since shipping in to Payson Park, covering a half-mile in :51 flat. Team Clement has observed that he has been making some noise during training since rejoining the barn, and put a dynamic scope on him for the work to evaluate his airway while under the stress of exercise.

The dynamic scope revealed that the left arytenoid cartilage does not fully abduct—meaning his airway is not opening fully.

In some cases, decreased arytenoid function would warrant a tie-back surgery, but for now Dr. Karen Beste of Palm Beach Equine Clinic, who performed the initial evaluation; and Dr. Gary Priest, who provided a second opinion, believe we should continue on unless and until Real Savvy’s performance seems impacted by his asymmetrical airway.
Dr. Beste said, “My thought is to take him to a race and see how he runs. If he runs poorly then take him to surgery. If he runs well keep going and if his performance starts to drop recheck and do the surgery then. This will give you some assurance that the procedure is absolutely necessary. Dr. Priest is in agreement.”

This is no doubt frustrating news and unfortunate timing, but we at least take it as a positive that the vets do not believe that surgery is definitely necessary at this time. We’ll continue to let Christophe monitor the situation and go from there.

[str]

Hey STR: FG R8. the horse in question is the #3 Ancient World. cost 525K. a 3-year-old. If able watch the replay. Interested to get your take on Him. You can access the PP's thru into mischief.
Not sure of the quality of the field he beat but a heck of a performance. THX in advance.

After watching the race, I had to find a chart to see who this excellent, patient, smart rider was. No surprise, it was Jose Ortiz.

The horse got caught doing what many firsters will do when loaded inside which is to not be fully prepared for what is coming. Simply because they have never done that before to the extent of that race. The horse was not sure what was going to happen when the race started. No idea. But, that is almost what you want . The alternative is having to settle nerves which is difficult and sometimes impossible.

So the rider, immediatly takes a hold of the horse and allows him to settle into stride. It was his only chance to win and his best chance to improve in the next few starts. Such a smart, veteran move from a HOF'er in Ortiz.

The rest was pretty simple. He got the horse to relax and await instructions. The kickback did not bother him very much at all.
He got a nice break when he slipped through a set of horses turning for home and the rest was predictable. Switched leads on que and got a lot out of that race. He looked a little tired, more like winded probably which is fully expected.

I would assume he gets about 4 weeks before he runs back in a nw/2. I hope it is not a stake. Why? Because he needs to mentally improve which he will if allowed to. That trainer is pretty sharp, no pun intended, well maybe just a little, and I have no doubt every step forward will be well thought out. I hope so. He is a real good horseman and married to Rosie Napravnik who was a real good rider.

Good to see some new blood get a chance witjh top quality horse flesh.

Thanks EZ.

[str]

ups and downs of horse racing.....
Real Savvy Update



Real Savvy had his second breeze yesterday since shipping in to Payson Park, covering a half-mile in :51 flat. Team Clement has observed that he has been making some noise during training since rejoining the barn, and put a dynamic scope on him for the work to evaluate his airway while under the stress of exercise.

The dynamic scope revealed that the left arytenoid cartilage does not fully abduct—meaning his airway is not opening fully.

In some cases, decreased arytenoid function would warrant a tie-back surgery, but for now Dr. Karen Beste of Palm Beach Equine Clinic, who performed the initial evaluation; and Dr. Gary Priest, who provided a second opinion, believe we should continue on unless and until Real Savvy’s performance seems impacted by his asymmetrical airway.
Dr. Beste said, “My thought is to take him to a race and see how he runs. If he runs poorly then take him to surgery. If he runs well keep going and if his performance starts to drop recheck and do the surgery then. This will give you some assurance that the procedure is absolutely necessary. Dr. Priest is in agreement.”

This is no doubt frustrating news and unfortunate timing, but we at least take it as a positive that the vets do not believe that surgery is definitely necessary at this time. We’ll continue to let Christophe monitor the situation and go from there.

Well... as you know Batt, it can be troublesome. But, the horse is in HOF hands in Cristopher Clement. If anyone can make this work, it is him.

We will hope for the best in the coming weeks Batt. Hang in there.

[Easy-Rider 66]

^ THX for the info STR. Interesting take.

[str]

Black Tie Optional Update ( Not this time)



Black Tie Optional is doing well at Wavertree Stables. As you will see in the photo, he is going through a bit of a growth spurt and awkward phase, but he continues to catch the eye. He remains on a weekly speed work routine and can be seen galloping above. When purchasing this colt, we never had plans for him being a particularly early type. Based on his physical changes, patience and time is only going to benefit him. None of these are negative things, but they will be taken into consideration when we decide on timing for shipping him to the track.
https://cdnb-media.myracehorse.com/b...1912027739.mp4

Batt, Lololol,

Every time I see this horse in a video, I start laughing. He reminds me of several of mine over the years. He no doubt has ability but he doesn't give a crap, he just wants to be a kid and is enjoying everyday but no idea what he is actually doing there..

I really do like this guy. His personality is really special. I laugh when I see him walk around. I watch his eyes and try and see what he is thinking. His mind is going 100 MPH with different thoughts. I find him hilarious.

Thanks for sharing. I can't get enough of this guy.

[str]

Cherie DeVaux

I am glad to see that she is getting a real serious shot with some very nice horses. I am sure she earned that and her reputation on the backside must be stellar.

Good for her.

[JBEX]

I am glad to see that she is getting a real serious shot with some very nice horses. I am sure she earned that and her reputation on the backside must be stellar.

Good for her.

thanks batt and agree str ..nice to see her in capable hands ..added of interest the $3M sales topper was out of a liam's map mare (by gun runner)