Need opinions on Matchbook live betting issue

**magnavox** · 11-03-09, 12:21 AM

You're a pretty good customer!

**KGambler** · 11-03-09, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by magnavox

You're a pretty good customer!

Sorry for repeating myself. I am still tired haha.

Also, anyone who takes -1300 odds for a team losing 8-2 to cover +1.5 runs is welcome at any book!

**miektheman** · 11-03-09, 12:33 AM

but what do you want them to do?

they should have to monitor every market? thats the advantage of being an exchange, they barely have to monitor any of the markets. i have gotten screwed betting at halftime a 1st half line( i thought i was betting the 2nd half line). this seems more correctable, not having the 1st half line up once it is halftime. but i dont think you have much of a case. but i certainly understand hopw you feel. horrible feeling.

**dimon** · 11-03-09, 12:33 AM

well I just stay away from the live betting...how much you were betting?

**heathcliffm** · 11-03-09, 12:42 AM

this mistake has cost me sooo much money and i know i should know better...impulse gambling!

**KGambler** · 11-03-09, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by miektheman

they should have to monitor every market?

I see what you are saying. It probably can be done, but I don't know how much it would cost them to improve their software to not allow these nuisance offers. I see so many times where someone is offering a -5000 line which should be more like +2000, and I think, "Why do they even allow that?" The answer is that their software is not robust enough to curb these kind of nuisance offers.

However, they CAN do something about this issue. When they receive a complaint such as mine, they can not only immediatley cancel the wager, but also warn the other party that this kind of behavior is not welcome on their exchange. This person was requesting +1300 on a -1.5 runline when the favorite was winning by 6 runs in the bottom of the seventh inning! I am sure we have all seen these kinds of ridiculous "offers". It is clear angleshooting and should not be tolerated by Matchbook. It is not hard for MB to understand that no one would ever intentionally bet -1300 on a team that is losing by 6 runs with 2 innings left.

Do racetracks cater to the bustos who wander around trying to hustle a couple of dollars off of the good customers, or who root through the trash looking for thrown away tickets? No, they kick their ass out, and that is how it should be.

**KGambler** · 11-03-09, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by dimon

well I just stay away from the live betting...how much you were betting?

In the bottom of the 7th inning, with the Phils leading 8-2, I bet $286 to win a lousy $13 that the Yankees would cover +1.5 runs. MB should be able to look at this bet and immediately cancel it. It is obvious what the other party was doing. It was not a good faith offer, but rather an attempt to angleshoot.

It boggles my mind that they will go out of their way to protect an angleshooting bum who does nothing but infuriate the good clients. It is like an expensive restaurant inviting a smelly bum in off the street to harass the paying customers.

**FreeFall** · 11-03-09, 12:58 AM

Your an idiot. If your betting $60k you really need to realize your $100 misclick won't ruin your bankroll. They ment make an offer on the other side for -1.5 for +1300.

MB is fine for standing up to this. How would you like your offer to be accepted and then canceled later when you check? That is just retarded. Use the submit feature to "check" your bets. So they are supposed to implement a feature where you can always cancel an accepted bet because you made a mistake? That doesn't even make sense.

It's also an EXCHANGE. That means there are people dumb enough to take those bets and that is there right. Just because your to ignorant to follow the rules and procedures is NOT there fault. I feel for CS people that have to respond to these emails.

**reno cool** · 11-03-09, 01:02 AM

yes, it's unfortunate that people post a bunch of ridiculous offers. They just wait for somebody to make a mistake.

And I've often made mistakes there too, usually by forgetting to cancel an offer, or accidentally typing odds in the amount box or vice versa. But I don't think you can blame Matchbook for this. It's a free for all and that's what actually makes it real good. We just need to understand the risk and be careful.

**Chuck Sims** · 11-03-09, 01:04 AM

Its happened to me on more than one occasion. During the regular season I bet the NYY -345 when they were trailing in the 9th inning. I thought it was +345. I've also put up the wrong team that burned me. I even offered the LAD -2500 instead of -250 to win the west early in the season.

Let me know if MB refunds your loss. I'm next in line to request that my mistake bets get refunded.

**KGambler** · 11-03-09, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by FreeFall

Your an idiot.

Well, I did make a foolish mistake. I hardly think that qualifies me as some kind of complete moron though. It's not like I do this every day

If your betting $60k you really need to realize your $100 misclick won't ruin your bankroll.

I have $64K in my account. I realize this won't ruin my bankroll. It does piss me off though.

MB should realize that it is not worth it to lose me as a customer, but I guess that is another issue.

They ment make an offer on the other side for -1.5 for +1300.

What??? Do you know how to read odds? You don't seem to know much about gambling.

How would you like your offer to be accepted and then canceled later when you check?

Honestly? I wouldn't complain if I requested +1300 -1.5 with my team winning by 6 runs, in an obvious attempt to mirror semi-logical odds, and the bet got cancelled. I would expect that to happen.

**FreeFall** · 11-03-09, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by KGambler

Well, I did make a foolish mistake. I hardly think that qualifies me as some kind of complete moron though. It's not like I do this every day

Fair enough.

I have $64K in my account. I realize this won't ruin my bankroll. It does piss me off though.

why whine about it then?

MB should realize that it is not worth it to lose me as a customer, but I guess that is another issue.

No they are following their policy which you agreed upon. Contact them and see how "badly" they need your business is your only option.

What??? Do you know how to read odds? You don't seem to know much about gambling.

My mistake

**KGambler** · 11-03-09, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by reno cool

It's a free for all and that's what actually makes it real good.

I was wondering if this is how most people viewed this issue.

Personally, I would clear out the nuisance angle-shooters if I were MB. I just wouldn't let broke-tards clog the system with ludicrous offers which will only be mistakenly accepted. This leads to pissed off customers.

Is it really that hard for them to rule that this type of bet needs to be cancelled? We are talking about taking 1 to 13 odds on a proposition that is less than 5% to happen!!!

I can understand if you simply say "yes, that is how it should be". There is something to be said about the "free for all" viewpoint. I understand the logic. I personally disagree, because I think the more outlandish cases of abuse should be policed. I wouldn't allow nuisance customers to infuriate the good customers. It's bad business.

I disagree, but I still see your point. It is a matter of opinion.

**KGambler** · 11-03-09, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by reno cool

And I've often made mistakes there too, usually by forgetting to cancel an offer, or accidentally typing odds in the amount box or vice versa.

Haha, I have done both of these things too.

When I typed the odds in the amount box, I accidentally accepted a pretty terrible offer, but it wasn't completely outlandish like this one. I let it ride and of course I lost.

**Justin7** · 11-03-09, 01:58 AM

I've been burnt by "bullshit offers" also. It's annoying as hell. I don't even do live betting there anymore because of this - you have to bet very quickly, and you can get raped by stuff like this. There's a whole market for "bullshit offers" to snag a person that isn't paying attention.

Here's the real problem though: any solution must be 100% objective. This becomes much more difficult when you don't have much liquidity. It sucks, but I can't think of a fair way for Matchbook to stop this. Ergo, I don't do live betting there.

**Dark Horse** · 11-03-09, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by KGambler

What do you guys think? I am mad at myself, but also at MB. Do I have a reason to be?

Learn from your mistake and move on. People can put up whatever odds they want. Many people have learned this same lesson on exchanges. I remember the same 'problem' from years ago at Tradesports. There usually are two ways of trading. Direct and in two steps (i.e. with build in control). So use the second one if you think people may take a shot at you.

It's a pity the Tradesports forum is gone. A lot of valuable information on exchange betting was lost with that.

The flip side of the question is, if you could gobble up an offer for a large amount that was clearly from someone who had fallen asleep, what would you do? Would you still be so concerned about fairness? Back at TS, I would take only a small bite, so the trader was alerted (to the forgotten offer); but there were definitely sharks hunting for such mistakes. Trading is swimming with the sharks. The bottom line is that you only have yourself to blame for mistakes. If it takes more than one mistake to learn that lesson, use the two-step method as safety net.

As to fairness of offers, you have no argument. At TS the bets would expire at 0 and 100 (easier for illustration). Can you tell people they can't put up offers at 1 and 99, and walk away from the market? Clearly not. Why would they have to watch the event live? They're not bullsh*t offers. They're just from people with a different strategy, fishing for value. Who is to say what margins are fair and not fair? I have traded many markets with offers at 40 and 60 (without watching the event). So from the TS background, i.e. from those who were into this type of betting before MB opened it up to a wider audience, you're really talking about a beginner's mistake.

**Art Vandeleigh** · 11-03-09, 02:22 AM

There is a button on the top of the page near the username, which lets you choose between U.S. odds, % odds, and European odds.

You might try using % odds when live betting instead of U.S. odds. You would have seen 93% as your number (probabilty NY comes within +1 1/2) instead of 7% that your were expecting/willing to take and immediately seen something was wrong (well at least I would have seen something was wrong). It's much tougher to make a mistake this way than +/- 1300, imo.

**Kaps** · 11-03-09, 02:23 AM

I recently came across a big problem with matchbook myself.... there was a football game a couple weeks ago where the line was -10 and the juice was about even odds (-10 -101 +103)...
somebody went in and must have made a mistake and in the same market at -10 the odds changed to (-10 -550 +450)
I happened to be on the other side of the +450 odds and bet 300 on it to win 1350...wow my eyes exploded.
then what happened i eventually covered in that same market the other side at -125 just to get out
they ended up canceling my play on the +450 side but not the side i covered at -125

They told me that you cant bet into a bad line when there is a mistake like that and that thosebets were cancelled
which i understood but also explained to him that i wouldnt have bet the other side to cover ....which left me naked on the one side
since the game didnt start yet they can cancel those plays but they cant cancel LIVE market plays while the game is goin on..

**reno cool** · 11-03-09, 03:48 AM

that's strange.
First. If somebody puts in an offer at -450, but +100 is available he automatically gets the +100 for whatever amount is available. If he bet more, then the remainder would show up as an offer for the other side as +450. So the -550 would of had to be in the system already....I guess that can happen. But, yeah I would think the bet has to stand. Interesting.

**reno cool** · 11-03-09, 03:54 AM

Originally posted by KGambler

I was wondering if this is how most people viewed this issue.

Personally, I would clear out the nuisance angle-shooters if I were MB. I just wouldn't let broke-tards clog the system with ludicrous offers which will only be mistakenly accepted. This leads to pissed off customers.

Is it really that hard for them to rule that this type of bet needs to be cancelled? We are talking about taking 1 to 13 odds on a proposition that is less than 5% to happen!!!

I can understand if you simply say "yes, that is how it should be". There is something to be said about the "free for all" viewpoint. I understand the logic. I personally disagree, because I think the more outlandish cases of abuse should be policed. I wouldn't allow nuisance customers to infuriate the good customers. It's bad business.

I disagree, but I still see your point. It is a matter of opinion.

I too wish that some of this could be eliminated, but I don't see a way we could have MB sitting there figuring out which offers are too far out of whack and manually canceling them.

**Kaps** · 11-03-09, 05:23 AM

crazy stuff

**Stumpage** · 11-03-09, 07:43 AM

I can't even begin to count the mistakes I've both made and benefitted from over the tens of thousands of wagers I've placed at BetFair, but that's just how it goes.

There's nothing that can or should be done for you. Matchbook is not liable for your error, nor should they be. It sucks (believe me, I know) but you're shit outta luck here and all you can do is simply move on to your next plays.

**andywend** · 11-03-09, 09:06 AM

KGambler,

I absolutely agree with you that Matchbook needs to ban these fleas that try and trap people by putting in reverse orders (putting up offers requesting 20-1 on the team that is ahead by 6 runs, etc).

ANYTIME I see an order like that, I automatically put in 3 orders at -100, 101 and 102 for $1 each and that takes their "angleshoot" order off the screen. I'm sure you have seen this many times with the live betting so you'll know its me the next time you see it.

I do this solely to irritate the fleas that try this crap and also to protect other traders.

Matchbook could solve this problem very easily. When they see an order placed by a trader requesting +2500 when the true odds are -2500 in an attempt to "angleshoot", Matchbook should track down the account doing it and send them a warning email telling them that any future occurences will result in their account being permanently banned.

These fleas offer nothing to the exchange and I wouldn't be surprised if this problem is limited to just a few low life assholes. The problem is these parasites have nothing to lose and everything to gain by putting up bogus orders and we've all made similar mistakes "in the heat of battle".

The next time you see these "angleshooting" offers, just place 3 orders at 100, 101 and 102 and push their order off the betting screen. You can even place the orders for as little as 2 cents and they will show up on the betting screen (1 cent orders don't show up).

Its a 6 cent investment just in case there is a miracle turn around and you forget to pull the orders down the road. If enough real traders put up these blocking orders, then these disgusting scumbags will stop doing this. I make it a point to do it as often as I can and other traders need to do it as well.

**Dark Horse** · 11-03-09, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by Art Vandeleigh

There is a button on the top of the page near the username, which lets you choose between U.S. odds, % odds, and European odds.

You might try using % odds when live betting instead of U.S. odds. You would have seen 93% as your number (probabilty NY comes within +1 1/2) instead of 7% that your were expecting/willing to take and immediately seen something was wrong (well at least I would have seen something was wrong). It's much tougher to make a mistake this way than +/- 1300, imo.

Very good suggestion (from an old TS-er, I believe). I wasn't aware that MB offered this.

Kind of funny that so many people don't get that you can trade fluctuations and that offers don't have to reflect current value. If somebody wants to put up 35-65 for the game, they would cry foul before kick off. lol

MB may want to consider some introductory pages about trading in general, because it's obviously not dumbed down enough for some. Perhaps include game graphs for live events. Picture is worth a thousand words.

**MrX** · 11-03-09, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by andywend

ANYTIME I see an order like that, I automatically put in 3 orders at -100, 101 and 102 for $1 each and that takes their "angleshoot" order off the screen. I'm sure you have seen this many times with the live betting so you'll know its me the next time you see it.

Ha!

Well that answers that nagging question I've had about who's making all of these $1 offers and why!

**Dark Horse** · 11-03-09, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by MrX

Ha!

Well that answers that nagging question I've had about who's making all of these $1 offers and why!

**Pareto** · 11-03-09, 12:37 PM

Matchbook writes this in their rules:

To further protect clients against "trap offers," malicious users, technical faults, and so forth, Matchbook reserves the right under extraordinary circumstances to break trades that are the result of an obvious and extreme input error. An example would be if a client is matched on a heavy underdog at 1-25 odds instead of 25-1 odds. Note that this rule protects against technical errors, not pricing errors, so while a match at odds of -150 vs. a prevailing market value of -115 may be regrettable, it could not be classed as an obvious and extreme input error. No claims will be considered after the start of an event or for trades that take place in running (i.e., during live trading). All claims must be made within an hour of the trade in question.

So according to their rules they cant cancel the wager.

**tomcowley** · 11-03-09, 12:45 PM

MB should have a complaint process where people who post ridiculous offers can be reported, warned, and eventually banned from live wagering markets. Policing all the offers in real time isn't realistic. Reviewing them after the fact is.

**Arilou** · 11-03-09, 12:46 PM

One suggestion would be that if you make an offer rather than accepting one, you enter your own odds which means you are protected. But if you are accepting offers, you WILL eventually get stung and it will hurt.

**KGambler** · 11-03-09, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by tomcowley

MB should have a complaint process where people who post ridiculous offers can be reported, warned, and eventually banned from live wagering markets. Policing all the offers in real time isn't realistic. Reviewing them after the fact is.

I think this is a good idea.

Someone said "People can post any odds they want", which is obviously true, but begs the questions: Why? To what purpose? At what cost?

In other words, why should people be able to request 25 to 1 odds on something that is going to win 95% of the time? The only way that offer will ever be accepted is if it is accepted by mistake.

It's clear from this thread that there are many people, including high volume players, who avoid MB live betting due to this issue. MB is losing business over this, which they don't seem to realize. They have been making a push recently to make live betting more popular, but their efforts are hamstrung by their own misunderstanding of what bettors want and don't want.

Good customers provide liquidity and commissions. MB also makes money off of the float on their large balances. Bad customers chase off the good customers, tie up customer service resources and clog up the system with garbage offers.

MB chooses to cater to the bad customers.

**KGambler** · 11-03-09, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Art Vandeleigh

There is a button on the top of the page near the username, which lets you choose between U.S. odds, % odds, and European odds.

Thanks, I didn't realize this.

Thanks to everyone else who made suggestions.

I will probably join Andy in his campaign to frustrate the angleshooters. 2 cent offers it is!

**Dark Horse** · 11-03-09, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by tomcowley

MB should have a complaint process where people who post ridiculous offers can be reported, warned, and eventually banned from live wagering markets. Policing all the offers in real time isn't realistic. Reviewing them after the fact is.

Wrong.

Go back to the 0-100 example (if you switch to percentages for live betting at MB, this will be clearer).

Normally when you place a bet, you buy it at around 50. No trading involved. You play a spread of 50, but you let the bet expire at either 0 or 100.

You could also play a spread of 50 with offers at 25 and 75. If you think that the game will fluctuate between those points. If this bet wins, you win the same full size bet, and if it doesn't, you only lose half the amount of a 'normal' bet at 50.

Unfamiliarity with trading strategies is no excuse. Educate yourself or not, I don't care. But don't blame the trading platform for your own lack of understanding.

**Dark Horse** · 11-03-09, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by KGambler

Someone said "People can post any odds they want", which is obviously true, but begs the questions: Why? To what purpose? At what cost?

You can trade margins. Already explained.

**KGambler** · 11-03-09, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Dark Horse

Wrong.

Go back to the 0-100 example (if you switch to percentages for live betting at MB, this will be clearer).

Normally when you place a bet, you buy it at around 50. No trading involved. You play a spread of 50, but you let the bet expire at either 0 or 100.

You could also play a spread of 50 with offers at 25 and 75. If you think that the game will fluctuate between those points. If this bet wins, you win the same full size bet, and if it doesn't, you only lose half the amount of a 'normal' bet at 50.

Unfamiliarity with trading strategies is no excuse. Educate yourself or not, I don't care. But don't blame the trading platform for your own lack of understanding.

Do you understand the concept that there are people who know how to read odds, but who could still accidentally accept a "reverse odds" offer?

When you are accepting 100s of offers per week, as I am, this can very occasionally happen. I'm not sure if you get that part.