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You do know that unions were created to ensure the safety and interests of its workers, which is really the middle class worker. What drove unions to be created? Oh yeah, workers were being taken advantage of with poor work conditions and were not paid a proper salary. I wonder what would happen without them? Hmmmm? They have already been getting the shaft for years and now you want to take away their bargaining rights? At the same time taxes are being lowered for the elite. Are any of you boys religious? I bet you are, which makes this even more ironic.Comment -
Yea, all those non-union workers sure are getting screwed! My buddy doesn't have a union to help him... he makes 11 cents an hour and the owners of the company are millionaires because of his work! Poor guy. If only he had a union to save him.
Seriously though, your argument is that because unions once made a great impact on the American worker, removing them would cause us to revert back to the 1800s? Despite all of the legislation that was passed (largely because of unions from back then) that now protects workers?
Horses and buggies used to be important too... doesn't mean they are necessary today.
Edit- no, not religious at all actually. And you do realize private sector unions aren't being touched by the legislation, right?Comment -
Since you are an Independent like me, I am shocked you are against the teachers keeping their bargaining rights. That is all they are asking for. As for private unions, it all starts somewhere. What is happening in Wisconsin is being watched all around the country.
Of course we aren't going to go back to the working conditions from years past, but you are kidding yourself if employees would not be taken advantage of whenever possible without the union.Comment -
I think it needs to be treated like a business. If a town/city/state doesn't want to pay teachers well, then those teachers will leave for another area or switch professions. This will result in crappy teachers (or no teachers) in those areas. How many people are going to stay in an area with a bad education system? It is important not only for teachers, but for the citizens of an area, to reward public workers for the job they want done, especially if they want people to continue to move there and provide growth (which increases their home values, brings business, etc).
That being said, public unions worry more about equality for all teachers, good and bad, than they do for the improvement of education. If they focused on putting out a great product, the money would follow.
PS- I know parenting/home life is more important in education than teachers, but obviously teachers are vital. Being able to get rid of bad teachers increases the overall education system and what kids learn, which increases the rewards for teachers, which encourages better candidates to pursue it
/rant lolComment -
I live in Wisconsin and this is the reason we elected Walker, to get rid of the waste and corruption. My wife was actually a union rep for one of the public sector unions and quit because of the corruption and bull-shit she saw. When the democrats where the majority they gave all the unions sweethart deals to make sure they would earn their votes. The teacher's union is one of the largest donor's to the democratic party in the state. Anyone who believe these public sector employees are losing their rights, either don't know the facts or don't understand the meaning of "conflict of interest". Don't forget elections have consequenses and these poor teachers & state employees unions got their asses handed to them in November, so now they will finally have to live like the rest of the middle class.Comment -
They are not taking away all of their bargaining rights. You always point the finger that someone else doesn't know the issue, and here you prove yourself not to know what you speak of. The unions will still be there and still bargain wages. They are just not going to be able to use pension and insurance benefits anymore. As well it should be. Now did you know that in the collective bargaining agreement many of the school districts are forced to buy health insurance from a company that is owned by the teachers union? DId you know because of that it cost them up to $68 million more than if they could buy it from the state employment healthcare plan? Seems to me that money could be better well spent in the classroom. But I don't need to tell you that, you already know the "real issues."Comment -
Yes sir, Hank, the people spoke and they spoke loudly. I believe 4 of the top 5 contributors to the Democratic campaign funds in Wisconsin come from unions. Now you know why Obama is bussing in people, from other states no less, to protest. He knows he's a whisker away from losing Wisconsin and the 2012 election as well.Comment -
Like it or not the workers and the unions have the real power at the end of the day, this is our country. You greedy, hypocritical Republican cowards are not going to last long. And for all those who are not rich yet still supporting the republicans... wake up because you are being brainwashed by Fox News and their companions.Comment -
It's not just Wisconsin buddy, the entire country is waking up to fight the people who are trying to take away workers rights.
And Obama has nothing to do with it, he's just a 'better' version of you hypocrites.Comment -
Looks like another one ^^^^^^ that has sucked on the entitlement tit for far to long.Comment -
And by the way, there are states that do not have collective bargaining rights at all and guess what? They are doing just fine.Comment -
Unions? No thanks.
Irony- calling Republicans greedy for being anti-union, when the sole purpose of unions is to provide maximum pay with minimal work. But that's not being greedy, right? Trying to force a company to pay people "what they deserve", regardless of whether they actually work hard or notComment -
These pro-union socialists must think that money grows on trees. The privelaged worker's in Greece and Ireland had similar deals to the public sector union workers here, how did that work out for those countries.Comment -
Listen. We're all greedy, ok? We don't know it because we think we deserve everything good in the world. We don't just *want* to make the most money for the least work, we think we *deserve* to make the most money for the least work.
What's going on in Wisconsin has nothing to do with what the Unions want. The Unions have already agreed to all of Walker's pay and benefit cuts. This is about Walker trying to take money out of the pockets of people who donate to Democrats and put that money into the hands of people who donate to Republicans in the form of no-bid privatization contracts and investment-class tax cuts.
You can't see the forest OR the trees if your eyes are closed.Comment -
I agree to a point, but he's not taking money out of their pockets, he's ending the gravy train that made them vote Dem in the first place. If you promise people that you will hand them more money if they vote for you, of course they're going to. Doesn't mean its a good thing for the average citizen. They should've never had the inflated benefits package to begin with (and by inflated, I mean not having to contribute to it).
And without investors, there wouldn't be ANY middle class. "Investment class" people are the ones who make small businesses happen, so you can't blame Walker for encouraging more business in the stateComment -
This is exactly right. They just defer the payment of that money until some point in the future - the worker is better off because they are "forced" to save, the company is better off because they don't have to fund 100% of the future obligation today so everyone wins.
Someone said early on that all the good workers will leave the state. That is exactly what free market is all about. If you can get a higher utility somewhere else - you absolutely should. BUT - the state's are counting on the fact that with families all there and other things will keep you in the state, and therefore you will just accept essentially working for less. If you want out, then get out, but don't get mad when your boss says he is gonna pay you less and you know you have no option but to take it - that is like you going to the grocery store and having a coupon for milk that you choose not to use because you can afford the full price - it doesn't make fiscal sense NOT to use the coupon!!Comment -
Wow...this thread is scary..
Im not Pro-nor Anti Union, but we really dont want our government recinding our rights to collective bargaining agreements
This deal in Wisconsin is WAY bigger then Eqypt or Libya and stupid a** americans dont even realize it, this is the beginning of union busting at its best
Hmmm...ya know who farms our fields??...does our lanscsaping? and hangs our drywall??
As middle class americans we need to keep collective bargaining viable or the middle class will continue to shrink into the lower class, and the rich will get richerComment -
No, it doesn't. They were contributing next to nothing from their paycheck. They wouldn't have just received bigger paychecks if they were contributing to their pensions (unless the union demanded it) because pensions are 1 of the biggest reasons states are in debt. We aren't talking about private unions... we are talking about public sector monopolies, which is exactly what they are. Private sector unions have consequences if they strike... they can be replaced. Not so easy with public unionsComment -
Read that article. There is NO reason that government employees should make more than private sector employees. Look at the state with the biggest gap - California - anyone here owed any money from there? I have IOU's from that $hit-box of a state for taxes they collected from me over last two years that they owe me a refund on. Does ANYONE want that to happen to their state?Comment -
http://tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Pe...S?OpenDocumentThe way this issue is being framed is ridiculous. It's being framed that teachers/etc are enriching their pension fund at taxpayer expense. In reality, they took less money in their paychecks in exchange for better benefits. The state took the deal (this is a contract), and now everyone is talking about teachers like they're some kind of parasite on society.Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.
How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.
Thus, state workers are not being asked to simply "contribute more" to Wisconsin' s retirement system (or as the argument goes, "pay their fair share" of retirement costs as do employees in Wisconsin' s private sector who still have pensions and health insurance). They are being asked to accept a cut in their salaries so that the state of Wisconsin can use the money to fill the hole left by tax cuts and reduced audits of corporations in Wisconsin.
Plain and simple, this is a propaganda trick and you are falling for it. Even discussing pension and salary as two separate entities is wrong, they are all part of the same package negotiated and agreed to upon by the state.Last edited by Indecent; 03-01-11, 04:45 PM.Comment -
That's some shit, newguy. You can bet they will come after you, if you owe them money.
As far as wages, I think they are close, it's the benefits that are out of control.
Last I heard, the avg person makes $50,000? (I wish)
You know how our govt likes to spend money, that's not their own. Which is why I think
govt employees are taken care of, just like the people we vote in. If you look at their
benefits compared to govt employees, they are almost hand in hand.
Private sector business' who do govt work are required to have a minimum wage requirement
(and it's not $7.25 an hour), along with benefits. I know, because we were the largest
govt printer in the nation and that's what I was told. My wages and benefits weren't
as good as a state worker, but they were much improved.Comment -
Scott Walker is a reverse Robin Hood
He steals from the poor and gives to the richComment -
You only listed one. This is sort of correct. Tax payers will end up covering extra pensions for employees who live longer than expected, but will also save money when they die sooner than expected. Otherwise, the money for their pension comes directly and only from their salary.
It's not a ponzi scheme though, it's more like tax-payers are acting as insurers that the state has set aside enough money to meet their contractual obligations. In Wisconsin's case, it seems like any additional tax-payer costs could have been avoided if the government had followed recommendations for minimum annual payments for pension systems (they didn't), adequately funded retiree health care, and generally been more disciplined with the states' money. Had they followed recommended practices, they likely would have acknowledged the problem much sooner and actually had some plan in place to mitigate it.Last edited by Indecent; 03-01-11, 09:14 PM.Comment -
Jesus. This thread is still full of BS. How many morons in here really think that taking away bargaining rights will not lead to lower wages in the future? Unreal.Comment -
There are a lot of good points, counter points going on in here, but really, after
the dot.com bubble burst, we've been going down hill ever since. Spending should've
been curbed back then.
People and business' alike, are hanging on to their money. Something needs to be
done to part people from their money in a way that supports America not China.
America can support itself on 90% of it's work force. If it can't, like we are seeing now,
the unemployment rate must be double what they say it is.Comment -
Once again, Wisconsin is LIMITING bargaining rights, not taking them away. There are already roughly a dozen states that limit bargaining rights. It seems they are doing just fine. Perhaps it would be best if you just answered the question that you have been dodging for days. If you can't, that's fine, just say so. Just don't continue to say that this is the end of the middle class if you can't back it up with actual facts.
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I wish that all union money and corporate money were excluded from political donations and candidates could be elected on their merits. Third party candidates have almost no chance unless they have incredible individual wealth.Comment
around it.
