Oh, I added my reason in an edit. But my final guess is that it's because 3 takes away a space our opponent can move and 4 doesn't, so 4 is the one to save
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Thanks for the points and puzzles John!
In the spirit of fairness I'll let Daniel have first crack at the next one you do since I've answered before he's had a chance a few timesComment -
Nailed it! To break it down further, if you take #1 and #2 and the empty space and consider that a section of 3. In sections of 3 it is almost always beneficial to get the more moves in the section. Sections of 1 are no different. Combined they are a section of 4. Most sections of 4 will end up 2 for Purple and 2 for Green. But anytime you can manipulate a section of four to 3 moves to 1 in your favor it is a really good thing.
Had Green taken 4, and Purple taken 3 then we would have no longer got 3 out of the 4 moves in the section. In games like this one it probably wouldn't matter much. But in really close games if you are always on the lookout for ways of maximizing your options it will help you win a lot of close games.
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I started a ladder game vs Mr. Bruno yesterday and I decided to post a preview of it here just for the hell of it.
Mr. Bruno playing Green
Ladder record 1022-292-3 Ranked #5
Head to head record 1-47
Money line +900
Spread +23.5
Holden2341 playing Purple
Ladder record 688-26-2 Ranked #1
Head to head record 47-1
Moneyline -1500
Spread -23.5
My analysis:
I'm nearly certain that I've played Mr. Bruno more than other player in the ladder. And I have to give him props because most of those games were times when he challenged me. I think he's the only player that's played in the Hexversi ladder non-stop since 2007. Don't let our head to head record fool you. Mr. Bruno is a very good player that has nearly beaten me multiple times and his win over me is from less than a year ago. His openings are usually very strong. If you don't play well against him early he will make you pay for it(ask Daniel). Mr. Bruno's number one weakness is his side-play. He puts himself into very vulnerable positions which is why he struggles so much against strong players that know how to exploit his weak side-play. I expect this game to be a real back and forth battle for positioning for the first 3 rounds(through move #24). If the game is still relatively close by move #25 I think I should be able to outplay him on the sides for the final 2 rounds and win the game. Bruno's best chance in this game is to thoroughly outplay me early so I don't get the chance to exploit his weak side-play. I expect a very good game but ultimately I think I'll be able to run him out of moves in either the 4th or 5th round and that should secure enough pieces for a victory.
My prediction:
Mr. Bruno taps out(runs out of moves) in the beginning of the 5th. Move #33.
Final score
Holden2341 57
Mr. Bruno 33
Note* We are currently on move #8.Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 04-26-20, 02:19 PM.Comment -
25 Point Hexversi Challenge:
Predict the final score or the tap out in post 285 above
Get them both correct for 100 points.Comment -
47-1 head to head! Damn, sounds like a bigger than -1500 favorite to me. Like maybe... -4700
Prediction: 55-35 for Holden, Bruno taps out on move 32Comment -
47-1 lol. Now I feel bad
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56-34 Holden. Bruno taps out on move 34Comment -
Gg blanko, you kicked my ass hard!Comment -
GG Daniel!Comment -
DanielEspinosa vs 2Pl76F Preview
Game started on 4-28. Currently on move #1
DanielEspinosa playing Green
Ladder record 2-2 Rank #14
Moneyline +100
Spread +6.5
2Pl76F playing Purple
Ladder record 3-7 Rank #6
Moneyline -120
Spread -6.5
My analysis:
This one is hard for me to predict because I've never played either player and both players have very limited experience and have never played each other before. 2Pl76F does have over 300 10x10 ladder games under his belt including 59% wins but it's still difficult to tell how good he will be at Hexversi with so few games. I suspect the first 3 rounds(through move 24) will be very close and I would give a slight edge to 2Pl76F because of his overall experience and he's not a very aggressive player and Daniel seems to be struggling against less aggressive players. But I think this will be very close. If Daniel can hang in there until later in the game I think he has a very good chance of pulling off a win because I suspect 2Pl76F will make mistakes on the sides that will be exploitable. If Daniel can force 2Pl76F into unbalanced edges and other bad positions I think his chance of winning are good. In what should be an interesting and close game, I think 2Pl76F's overall experience may be too much for Daniel. This should be a really close game that could go either way.
My prediction:
2Pl76F gets the tap out in the 5th. Move #38.
Final Score:
2Pl76F 48
Daniel 42
Good luck in this one Daniel! I hope you prove my prediction wrong.Comment -
Ha, I just challenged that guy too. I wanted to go against Chairman but he had no spots open. 2PI76F beat me in the tournament though so I wanna take another swingComment -
Good game guys.
For the first 2 rounds(move 16) in this game was really close. Good play on both sides for the most part. Move #17 was pretty bad for Daniel but blanko's move 17 wasn't great either. blanko was able to keep control of the game until he delivered the brilliant move #23 as seen below:
He followed that up with an equally brilliant move on #24. There was really nothing Daniel could do after that. blanko gets the tap out on move #27 for Purple that led to the 75-15 win. Nice work blanko!
Best move of the game:
Purple #23
Worst move of the game:
Green #17
I'm looking forward to the rubber match!
JG official picks record:
1-0
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What would you have done on my move 17 John? I would've of course liked a quieter move but I couldn't spot any good optionsComment -
Im still not sure what happenened. I figured I did something earlier which blanko capitalized on move 23, but I didnt know what.
Why was move 17 so bad?Comment -
Awesome! Let's do a preview:
2Pl76F playing Green
Laddder record 3-7 Rank #6
Head to Head record 1-1
Moneyline +100
Spread +7.5
blankoblanco playing Purple
Ladder record 3-0 Rank #13
Head to head record 1-1
Moneyline -120
Spread -7.5
My analysis:
For all practical purposes 2Pl76F is 1-0 vs blanko as the other game timed out. 2Pl76F thoroughly outplayed blanko early last time but he made a terrible mistake which allowed blanko back into the game. 2Pl76F was fortunate enough to take advantage of blanko's lack of experience last time and still pull out a win. This time I expect a completely different game as blanko now has a much better opening and stronger endgame than he did in their first game. Just like in Daniel's game with 2Pl76F I expect the first 3 rounds to be extremely close. And just like in Daniel's game I think the way to beat 2Pl76F will be to outplay him on the sides. I expect blanko to be in a slightly better position in his game because of a stronger opening which should make exploiting 2Pl76F side-play a little easier. I expect both 2Pl76F's games to be close, but I think the only undefeated player in the ladder will remain undefeated after this one.
My prediction:
blanko get's the tap out in the 5th. Move #37.
Final score:
blanko 49
2Pl76F 41
I'll try to answer your questions for moves #17 later on.Comment -
Ladder rankings seem a bit strange. He's ranked #6 but he's 3-7? I guess it's all about the rank of whoever you beat
Also, cool game against Bruno, John. I see you're about to take over thanks to that unbalanced edge (although I imagine you've felt in control for a while). It's impressive how you navigate these boardsLast edited by blankoblanco; 04-29-20, 02:13 PM.Comment -
I would have definitely moved to 12 or 10 if i were Green. You could have potentially gotten 4 moves out of your move. Anytime you are flipping pieces in 2 different directions you want to make sure that your move is a good one. In most cases it's better to be flipping pieces in only 1 direction.
#11 is almost certainly the correct move below for Purple. There are times when I am 99% sure that I have the correct move and this is one of them.
If you have any specific questions as to why about either move... feel free to ask.Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 04-29-20, 07:37 PM.Comment -
Yeah, it's because there are so few people in the ladder. If there were 2000 people in the ladder everyone in the top 20 would be great. But say right now... dmoresco is ranked 27 and if i challenge him and he beats me he will be #1. I think you can challenge anyone ranked within 20 above you and 40 below you. Usually the best players are in the top 10 so.. it's not so bad. Right now Toptal is ranked #8 but I'm certain he's the 2nd best player in the ladder.Comment -
Nice hit! If you get the final score as well I'll throw another 75 points your way.
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So the reason I didn't want to take 11 was because he'd be able to grab that diagonal from the edge spot that's a space apart from the top left corner. That's always struck me as a good diagonal to have. I guess I must be overestimating the value of that compared to just limiting his available moves, or I just have the wrong idea completelyComment -
If he grabbed that spot it wouldn't be a terrible move for him but I would hardly consider it a highly desirable position. You could have grabbed spot 10 immediately afterward and then it would be his turn to move and he didn't have a lot of good moves left.
Knowing how to play these spots correctly is very difficult for most people. I see a lot of people that I can tell have a similar theory in these types of positions. Sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't. For most players I think they take the sides a little too much. Most of the time I prefer to let my opponents misplay a side before I get to it and then I'll take advantage of it later.Comment -
Ah, I didn't notice 10 as a good follow-up to that. I guess I'm just overly scared of giving my opponent those edge spaces since it creates a space that gives them a corner if I'm forced to play in it. But if I limit their moves better than they limit mine, I shouldn't be the one with the forced play to begin with? Is that sort of the way you look at it?
I've made a lot of progress thanks to your help but still feel like I'm missing a few big things in terms of extending outward in the early-mid game, if there are spaces I should actively avoid playing in (obviously the middle adjacent space to a corner is dangerous and usually to be avoided unless you've set it up to be safe) etc.
There's probably better terminology for all of this, but hopefully you get what I'm describingLast edited by blankoblanco; 04-29-20, 08:29 PM.Comment -
Yeah, that's pretty much my entire strategy and I think it's a good way to look at it. The sides are really complex and difficult to learn. My biggest advice on the sides is to just learn how to play them correctly and it's probably a good idea for most players to be a little more patient when playing the sides.
In your guys's game vs 2P I think there is a pretty good chance it will come down to who plays the sides better in both games. Hopefully I'll be able to pull up some examples from those games where mistakes were made and where sides were played really well.
I wish there were better terminology for all of this as well. I'll try to create names for specific situations if I have to. It's much easier with a square board because the coordinates are easy to identify.
There are probably still a few big things you are missing but overall you guys are learning incredibly fast. Hopefully over the next few games I'll be able to help you guys work on your weaknesses. I think the chances of this are very good.Comment -
1 move left in my game vs Mr. Bruno. Final will be 59-30.
I want to post a picture of the board after Bruno's move #15. And then read what I put in bold above in my analysis. I am sure you can see by looking at the upper left corner of the board below and know exactly what I am talking about. Purple can basically pull the trigger on that unbalanced edge any time he wants. I usually(depending on the situation) try to fill up the board a bit before I pull the trigger. I think I waited 5 or 6 moves in the game below. I used up my other good moves first.
There's a reason why Bruno has only beaten me once. It's not because I'm just completely out of his league, because I'm not. It's because he predictably and consistently puts himself in positions like the one above. When he does this against good players it becomes virtually impossible for him to win even if he played really well up until that point... which he often does.
I'm not trying to pick on Mr. Bruno here... I'm just trying to point out how easy it is even for good players to play the sides incorrectly and be forced into bad positions like the one above. Some players play the sides better than others but for the majority of these players, they make mistakes on the sides in nearly every single game and I don't think that they are aware of it. If you can learn what these subtle mistakes are and use them to your advantage while at the same time avoid making these mistakes yourself... I think you guys could compete with virtually everyone in the ladder.
I am hoping that over the next few games I will be able to help you guys vastly improve your side-play. And I already think it's pretty good.
JG official picks record
2-0Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 04-30-20, 03:40 PM.Comment -
I just looked through every move of that game, it really is just a clinic on exploiting unbalanced edges, pretty cool
I actually haven't even used the technique yet in my ladder games since I've been managing to just get the first corner myself (without giving them an edge to exploit) and snowballing the win from there. Looking forward to seeing if I can execute it when the opportunity arisesComment -
Ugh, pretty sure I'm already in a terrible position against 2P. Move 6 looked fine to me at first glance but his 7 kinda craps all over itComment -
Interesting. After his counter I feel majorly lacking in mobility, not sure how to swing it back but I guess we'll see. Goes to show that the early game is still a bit of a mystery to me even though I get most of the basic principlesComment -
Here green has the 3 positions below the unbalanced edge. I probably missunderstood something, but I think you said this is the only case it is not that bad to have an unblanced edge?
1 move left in my game vs Mr. Bruno. Final will be 59-30.
I want to post a picture of the board after Bruno's move #15. And then read what I put in bold above in my analysis. I am sure you can see by looking at the upper left corner of the board below and know exactly what I am talking about. Purple can basically pull the trigger on that unbalanced edge any time he wants. I usually(depending on the situation) try to fill up the board a bit before I pull the trigger. I think I waited 5 or 6 moves in the game below. I used up my other good moves first.
There's a reason why Bruno has only beaten me once. It's not because I'm just completely out of his league, because I'm not. It's because he predictably and consistently puts himself in positions like the one above. When he does this against good players it becomes virtually impossible for him to win even if he played really well up until that point... which he often does.
I'm not trying to pick on Mr. Bruno here... I'm just trying to point out how easy it is even for good players to play the sides incorrectly and be forced into bad positions like the one above. Some players play the sides better than others but for the majority of these players, they make mistakes on the sides in nearly every single game and I don't think that they are aware of it. If you can learn what these subtle mistakes are and use them to your advantage while at the same time avoid making these mistakes yourself... I think you guys could compete with virtually everyone in the ladder.
I am hoping that over the next few games I will be able to help you guys vastly improve your side-play. And I already think it's pretty good.
JG official picks record
2-0Comment -
When you have all 6 pieces in an unbalanced it is usually less risky because it can only be attacked from one angle. Much of that is very specific to the board. Some unbalanced edges are very low risk where as others are very high risk. I probably didn't explain it very well as it's very difficult to explain. Had Green not had that gap between his piece and the corner then the unbalanced edge would be lower risk especially if Purple didn't have a move in that middle spot. However, because there is that gap, Purple can volunteer the corner to Green at any time and wedge in and get his own corner.
Generally... the best time to have an unbalanced edge is if your opponent refuses to take an unbalanced edge after you offer it to him. More times than not you can take it yourself and be okay. Other than that... I try to avoid unbalanced edges most of the time. I do get them on occasion but usually it's because I got several moves out of the deal in the process.
Unbalanced edges can be tricky to explain... but generally... it's not good to have them most of the time.Comment -
Ok I think I understand. Intuitively indeed it seems a risky position for green.Comment -
Yikes, second time I made a move against 2P I wouldn't have normally made that was very likely bad. Don't drink and board game, kidsComment -
Yeah, that was not an easy decision on that move. I think you had at least a couple of better moves but you're definitely still in this. This game is going about as I expected it to so far. If you can hang in there until the board fills up a bit more I think you have a pretty good chance. Btw... you forced Green's unbalanced edge perfectly. Hopefully you'll be able to take advantage of it later in the game.
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