It's still pretty close because BB has a lot of moves available at the top of the board. The unbalanced edge for BB on the left side of the board isn't bad right now because the wedge spot is still open. But the other 2 are easily exploitable. If you play it right you will most definitely win but I think this could be challenging for you because of your limited experience. But honestly... after my last 2 Hexversi challenge posts this is really an ideal game for you to be in. If you win this game I'll promote you to Hexversi Yellow Belt lol...
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Do hexversi players typically not surrender games? Like, I was surprised at how many of your games went to a full board when it was clear you were going to win several moves before. I dunno if it's considered proper etiquette to play out all the moves or what
Currently a bit perturbed that sawyers has been taking forever to play moves when he's been in an unwinnable position for a while. It's locking me out of challenging other players. Looking forward to getting my first honest win though!Comment -
Some players surrender and some don't. I almost never surrender because most of my games are close when I lose. But I have been stomped a few times. In one of them I was beat 74-0. I was actually sort of rooting for Ryan to beat me this bad at one point because I wanted to see if he was creative enough to eliminate me and he was and I found it really impressive that he was able to do so. I have some wins like that myself but if you can do against a really good player it's all the more impressive. I always like it when players play out the entire game even if I am stomping them really badly. The reason is, for me I always like to see how high I can score on someone especially if it's a really good player. Also, if I should go back to review a really old game I always like to see what the total outcome was instead of just seeing a partial game. Because if I am reviewing the game I can always kind of predict what the final is by the current position of the board at any given time. When you get to see a full board and have a final score you get to see if your prediction was correct. But when you don't get to see the full board you'll never know. I can only remember ever resigning in 2 games and I think and in one of them my opponent sort of asked me to resign and the other I resigned because I was getting destroyed. But I wish now that I would have let it play out. I always like to see a full board.
But I can tell you a few players on the ladder that do resign. Mr Bruno will resign and he's a very fast player. sht will resign and is also a very fast player. aragon is another one. All of these players are also really good players. 2 of 3 are going to the next round and the other wasn't in the tournament but he's won a small Hexversi tournament as well in the past. I've played all of these players several times and they are good players. Both aragon and Mr. Bruno have wins over me. These are good players to play if you are looking for a faster game at against a very good player.
Congrats on the win!Comment -
25 Point Hexversi challenge
I'm playing Toptal in a very complex close game right now. Below was the position earlier in the game. On the lower right side tell me who got outplayed on this side and why.
And the 2nd part is who do you think is winning the game and why.
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Okay, I'll go ahead and be wrong yet again. If for no other reason then to give my point of view and maybe you can coach me on what my misconceptions are
I would think purple has outplayed green on the right side mainly because of the inside track diagonal they have along the center and all the way to the edge. I feel like that's a position I would like to have on that side. Purple also has a couple places to play that don't create viable moves for green
As for who's winning overall? I can't say I even attempted to count every available move, but I kinda think green? It looks to me like green has a greater amount of viable moves. And the single unflippable green piece on the very inside of all the purple seems good to meLast edited by blankoblanco; 04-19-20, 10:14 PM.Comment -
I would say green outplayed purple, because that left spot in the wall can only be taken by purple, so green would eventually get a corner.
As for the second question, I agree with blanko. Green is dominating so far and has more available moves.Comment -
In post 214 Purple definitely outplayed Green on that side. There are 2 reasons for this. First... of the 3 played spots in between the corners Purple got 2 of them vs only 1 for Green. And secondly, the empty spot in between our pieces is only available to Purple. This is important because if Purple should get the Right corner Green will be unable to wedge in because Green doesn't have a move there. This means that Green will never be able to sacrifice the right corner because he can't wedge in to get his own corner. However, if the empty spot was available to both Green and Purple, then at some point in the game Green could sacrifice the Right corner and wedge in and get the lower right corner for himself. But because Green doesn't have a move there he can't do this. Make sense?
As far as who is winning overall... it's close. But for me personally... I would much rather be Purple in this position(I'm Green). Here's why... Purple has his pieces in one nice clump. He doesn't ave any stragglers that I can sniper off. However... Green has a couple of stragglers that Purple can essentially use as free moves if he plays them correctly. He can save these 2 moves until he doesn't have anywhere good to go.
blanko is correct about the single unflippable Green piece that is surrounded by Purple. That's a very good thing for Green! This is the best thing Green has going for him in this game right now. That piece isn't necessarily unflippable for the rest of the game... but for now it is and if I utilize it correctly(I did) I can hopefully put myself into some very good positions because there's a lot I can potentially do with that piece alone.
If we count the number of options for both Green and Purple we have 10 for Green and 14 for Purple. This is a fairly reliable way of telling who's actually winning, although this too is not perfect but it's usually pretty close. And in this game.. I would say that is spot on at this stage in the game.
We are now on move #27 in the game above. I feel like I have outplayed him in the last few moves and he made a mistake and I forced him into an unbalanced edge. Purple now has 12 options and Green now has 13. This is a pretty big momentum shift. As the board fills up both of us are going to see a reduction in our options. Having just one more option than your opponent in very close games like this is often enough to win the game. The option count isn't a perfect indicator of who's winning because for some moves you can move and only use one of your options. But for other moves you might be using 3 of your options on one move alone. This is often unavoidable. But generally... the option count is a fairly reliable indicator... but it's not perfect by any means.
Games like the game above are always really fun for me because they are so challenging and force me to be creative in order to have a chance to win. This game is still extremely close but I'm really hoping that either Purple will make a mistake and I'll capitalize on it OR, I'm hoping I will have some brilliant move that will win me the game. If either of these things happens... I should be able to post another challenging puzzle from this game within the next few days. Hopefully I won't be the one that makes the mistake
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I just looked in on your guys's games. Just a heads up... for blanko's game vs Robert Sawyers... move #34 for blanko was a pretty bad move. I don't think it will effect the outcome of the game because you are so far ahead and maybe you even did it on purpose just to give Robert some moves. But... I just want to make sure you know why it was a bad move. It's because you were in a prime position to pick off those 5 pieces individually. You could have used 5 separate moves on those pieces but you used them all up in just 1 move. It most certainly won't matter because you still have your saved moves, some of which are going to create even more moves for you as well. Just wanted to make sure you knew... because had this game been close... that move would have likely cost you the game. I still think you'll break at least 60 in this game.Comment -
Yeah, I honestly just did it to give him moves and get the game over with. If it was close I would be taking longer on my moves and trying to maximize pieces. And maybe I should've tried to play more optimally for practice, just a bit annoyed by him slowplaying and want to move on lolComment -
A lot of this is probably very confusing because there are so many different ways a side can be played. There's a lot of different looks and very few of them should be played the same way. In your game vs BB... move 19 was a great move for you because there is an empty space between the corner and Green's piece. That's your wedge spot. However, in move 20, Green's piece is right next to the corner which means that there is no wedge spot. You may or may not get the wedge spot on the other side(you did). But now, that wedge spot can only be exploited from one angle because if you were to move in the spot parallel to the left corner you would make that wedge spot available to Green which defeats the purpose of the unbalanced edge to begin with.
I'm not saying your move 20 was a bad move, it wasn't. It's just that because there wasn't already a gap between the corner and Green's nearest piece... you may or may not ever see the benefits of Green's unbalanced edge. And... in circumstances like this you may not be able to get the unbalanced edge to begin with because there was no gap between your opponents piece and the corner. It wasn't a bad move... it's just a very difficult way to create unbalanced edges. But... it was still a pretty good move but for different reasons.
I hope this made sense. A lot of this is very difficult to explain. It's sort of like learning a new language. Once you know some basic rules it becomes much simpler. The good news is... many of these other players never learn many of these things. They learn bad habits from the start and it's difficult for them to change their ways. There are no books on Hexversi so... most of these players are entirely on their own.
You guys probably don't realize this but... I feel like you guys are coming along at a lightning fast pace compared to most other players. It's sort of like when a child is born in one country they often times can speak the countries language fairly well in just a few years. But then you'll have people that lived in a country for more than 10 years and they barely speak the language at all. It's often times much easier to start from scratch. That's where you 2 are. You are learning the language extremely quickly from scratch without any bad habits already ingrained in your thinking. It's very interesting to me.
When this current tourney is over... it's probably going to be at least a couple of more months... I plan to organize another one and it will likely have a similar amount of players. If you guys continue to play and join the next tourney I think the chances of both of you winning your division in the first round are very good.
I hope this was helpful.
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That's good to know. For your next game you may want to consider challenging Frank. He challenged me on the 14th and we will finish(one move left) our game today so... that means he moved on average 6 to 7 times a day which is a pretty good pace. I think you would most definitely beat Frank even though he has over 700 games under his belt I still think you would likely crush him because his style is not very good.
If you want to challenge someone better that also moves quickly I recommend Mr. Bruno, sht, or aragon. But... with these 3 players I would be impressed if you beat them but... I think there is a pretty good chance you could outplay them on the sides because all of these players often put themselves into vulnerable positions where they can easily be manipulated into an unbalanced edge.Comment -
Cool, thanks for the heads up. Not so sure about crushing people though! My early game is still very shaky and I'm definitely not above making a blunder I immediately regret
Btw John, did you have someone help you to learn the game or did you figure out all this stuff yourself?Comment -
Ok thanks, I think I kinda got the idea about unbalanced edges!Comment -
Well, in 2006 I read Brian Rose's ebook "A Minute to Learn... A Lifetime to Master" which can be found here:
The book is about Othello/Reversi strategy and was written in 2005. Brian Rose was Othello World Champion in 2001. There hasn't been another American world champion since 2004. Reading that ebook had a HUGE influence on the way I played Othello. I don't remember when I read it exactly compared to when I started playing/getting good at Othello/Reversi but I know it didn't take me long until I started winning tournaments at IYT and I'm pretty sure that ebook had a lot to do with it. Hexversi didn't come out until 2007.
Many of the strategies in Hexversi that I'm trying to explain are very specific for Hexversi but... the theories are very similar. The unbalanced edges I definitely learned from Brian's book... even though in Othello/Reversi an unbalanced edge has 5 pieces instead of 3. But the theory is still the same. In Othello there are only 4 corners where as in Hexversi there are 6 so... that particular part of the book is extremely useful for Hexversi. I'm pretty sure many of the things I am showing in this thread are just modified versions of things I learned in Brian's ebook.
I find all of the Reversi games fascinating... especially Hexversi because of the illusions they often present. I could show a game in progress like the one below to the majority of the world:
And I think most people would say that Green was easily on his way to victory. But with just a little bit of knowledge...
it's easy to see through the illusion. I'm sure you and Daniel can tell that Purple is going to destroy Green in the game above. But most people aren't aware that they are even seeing an illusion. What they think they are seeing is reality. I think many things in life are very similar. Whether it be religion, politics, or just about anything else. Nearly everyone thinks that their version of reality is the correct one when very often not only is there version of reality completely false... it's exactly the opposite of what is actually true. These types of things fascinate me. I think that's why I'm so obsessed with this game.
In Hexversi I'm always on the search for what is true/reality. But I'm pretty sure in real life I'm much more complacent. I think most people are. This type of complacency can be very dangerous to people in my opinion. Many people see what they want to see and they run with it. I think we are seeing that with Covid-19 right now and it will likely cost thousands of lives because some people still think it's a hoax. It doesn't help when we have leaders that are telling us things that are likely not true.
Purple won the game above 81-9 btw. When I posted the game above in another thread nearly everyone predicted a Green victory. It makes me wonder how often we are being fooled in real life.Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 04-20-20, 03:10 PM.Comment -
Round 2 has finally started in the Hexversi tourney.
Below are the division winners and their division record. I also broke them down into their new divisions so you can make your predictions for the next round. Same rules as last time, I get my pick first and you can pick anyone else besides my pick. If my pick doesn't advance and yours does I will throw 100 points your way for every one you get right. You can pick the same as each other, you just can't choose my picks. In the last round, all of my predictions advanced with the exception of Ryan. There were some ties for first but Ryan was the only one to not advance. I think this time it's going to be a lot harder because some divisions are really strong and 1 is fairly weak. Both are difficult to predict.
Section 1
algis 4-0
Eddie 6-0
Holden2341 4-0
The Chair Man 5-1
Section 2
dmoresco 5-1
Gulin 5-1
Scary Times Be Safe!(formerly 2016 Harley Davidson) 6-0
Tim 5-1
Section 3
FGYTPeti 5-1
Andy 6-0
aragon 3-1
maitreg 4-0(2 still pending but nobody can catch him in his divsion)
Section 4
Jon 6-0
Marinella 6-0
sht10 5-1
skydvr68 6-0
My picks:
1. Holden2341
2. Scary Times Be Safe!
3. FGYTPeti
4. Jon
These were not easy picks to make. Most of these players have never played each other in Hexversi before. If I get more than 2 right I will be sort of surprised. And it wouldn't surprise me entirely if I got them all wrong. Try to get your predictions in by today or tomorrow. This should be fun!Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 04-20-20, 05:17 PM.Comment -
Good luck! I'll definitely be checking out your gamesComment -
GL John!
My predictions:
1. Eddie
2. Tim
3. Andy
4. MarinellaComment -
Predictions:
Eddie
dmoresco
maitreg
skydvr68Comment -
Just for the hell of it, I'm going to try to predict the exact order of the divisions. Section 3 intrigues me the most. Lots of good players in that section.
Section 1
1. Holden2341
2. Eddie
3. The Chair Man
4. Algis
Section 2
1. Scary times be safe
2. dmoresco
3. Gulin
4. Tim
Section 3
1. FGYTPeti
2. aragon
3. maitreg
4. Andy
Section 4
1. Jon
2. Marinella
3. sht10
4. skydvr68Comment -
You know what would be awesome is if there was a practice tool where you could set up a specific position and then play it out, either by yourself or against someone else. That would accelerate the learning process a lot for me
One mistake I make is I try to visualize several moves ahead but I end up overlooking that move 2 or 3 will flip an important inside piece so my "brilliant" move 4 no longer works. Getting a little better at it thoughComment -
Daniel's taking butterbean to school, nice workComment -
Yes! I just hope I don't screw it upComment -
Yeah, that would be really awesome. I think there are some programs like that for regular Othello/Reversi. What I think would be really cool would be if you could go through a game and on each given move you just touch the spot where you would have moved. And then let's assume there was a computer program with perfect play that would grade every decision you made during the game until someone ran out of moves(after a person runs out of moves the game is essentially over and perfect play is more subjective). So... let's say I was going through the game between you and Daniel and on each move I could click on the spot where I would have moved and a computer program will Grade each of my decisions and then the game goes to the next position and I do the same thing. Then afterward, the program could give you your average Grade and show you your strengths and weaknesses and what not.
I figure... all I have to do is get someone like Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg interested in Hexversi and they'd be able to write a program like the one above in no time... lol.
About thinking several moves ahead... for me personally... I almost never do it. Except when it's later in the game and the game is really close. But even then, I'm mostly just focused on what will give me the best positioning. With the sides I look ahead a little... but now these types of positions are so familiar to me that I barely even think of it as looking ahead.
For me, Hexversi is really instinctive. It's difficult to describe. I can usually tell what is either the best move or one of the best moves within a few seconds of looking at the board in any given state. I always wonder what the board looks like to other people. What are they seeing? How do they make their decisions? What were they thinking about when they made that move? I find it all very interesting.Comment -
I just looked in on your guys's games. Daniel's putting a beatdown on butterbean indeed. I'll predict 65-25, somewhere in that range. His game vs Chair Man is a REALLY interesting one right now(move 30 for Purple). I think this will be close depending on who plays what. There's a lot of really complex positions in that game right now. The the lower left corner is set up quite brilliantly for Daniel(purple). But Green has some really nice angles in other parts of the board that could be difficult for Purple to overcome. The decision Purple has to make for move 30 is not an easy one. Games like this are my favorite kind to look at. I will definitely be following this game in the moves to come. If a mistake or brilliant move is made on either side I will likely post a Hexversi challenge for it.
I noticed you finished up your game with Robert Sawyers. Congrats! You played really well and I fully expect you to beat Dennis as well. Now that you've moved up in the Ladder it should increase your chances of other people challenging you to a game. Both of you guys are playing great in the Ladder so far. I'm really impressed with your progress.
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I think I might have thrown the Dennis game actually. Thought I could run him out of moves but there was a play he had that I didn't factor in. And there's this weird thing where I've technically had more available moves than him, but in actuality most of my moves just open up multiple moves for him again, so I don't if I'm just "baiting" myself or what
I definitely wish I had a more intuitive knowledge of positions that look good and could just play from there. I end up getting myself into weird situations that are a bit too complicated for meComment -
Unbalanced edges worked great against butterbeanI just looked in on your guys's games. Daniel's putting a beatdown on butterbean indeed. I'll predict 65-25, somewhere in that range. His game vs Chair Man is a REALLY interesting one right now(move 30 for Purple). I think this will be close depending on who plays what. There's a lot of really complex positions in that game right now. The the lower left corner is set up quite brilliantly for Daniel(purple). But Green has some really nice angles in other parts of the board that could be difficult for Purple to overcome. The decision Purple has to make for move 30 is not an easy one. Games like this are my favorite kind to look at. I will definitely be following this game in the moves to come. If a mistake or brilliant move is made on either side I will likely post a Hexversi challenge for it.
I noticed you finished up your game with Robert Sawyers. Congrats! You played really well and I fully expect you to beat Dennis as well. Now that you've moved up in the Ladder it should increase your chances of other people challenging you to a game. Both of you guys are playing great in the Ladder so far. I'm really impressed with your progress.
I read this after playing, I'm not sure if I should have given up that left corner or not. I probably should have, let's see what he does now.Comment -
Nah, you're positioning is still much better than his(move 22). Move #12 was your worst move of the game IMO. I think you could have gotten 4 moves out of that instead of just 1. But you recovered nicely in your next several moves and he made a terrible move on move #17 and your move #17 was perfect.
This is an interesting game. I definitely like your chances and I think this is probably the perfect type of game for you to be in right now because I believe you are entirely in the driver's seat but... there's also a lot of places you can make mistakes. But I think you'll probably learn in a lot in this game while still being able to pick up the win.Comment -
Yeah in early game I'm just clicking buttons in a lot of spots.
I have never played Reversi but this game seems more interesting. Have you tried to ask bigger Reversi sites to implement it? I think it could be a success, kinda like poker, where people get bored of Texas Holdem and start playing Chinese Poker or 6+.Comment -
Quick question about if and when early game aggression can be appropriate, in my game against Frank up through move 4:
Are my moves 3 and 4 way too aggressive? I've been trying not to take so many pieces early on but doesn't this current spot leave me with more mobility than him? Intuitively it would seem good to me, but it might be a mistake I'm making due to lack of foresight and experienceComment -
You played brilliantly early on against Chair-Man. I recommend playing that way early on in every single one of your games. If you were just clicking buttons in that game... you made a lot of good guesses!
Yeah, to me Hexversi is far more interesting... but I'm totally biased of course. I haven't tried any bigger sites to implement it but that's a good idea. Nearly all of my Reversi playing experience has been at IYT so... I'm not really familiar with too any other sites. I have played at some though, but.... I'm not sure which sites are the most popular I guess. That would be great if a really big site had this game. IYT was much more popular in the early 2000's but I didn't start playing Reversi regularly until 2006 and by 2007 when Hexversi came out there weren't nearly as many people that played there anymore. I think a lot of people may have stopped playing Othello/Reversi online vs people because of all the programs there are for it now. That's one thing I really like about Hexversi... I'm 99% certain that nobody is using a program. If someone beats me... I know they are for real.Comment -
Move 3 was perfect and move 4 was also very good(possibly perfect). Move 4 probably wouldn't have been my first choice... but just BARELY... it was a really good move. Here's why both moves 3 and 4 were good. It's because your pieces are entirely inside of his pieces. It's okay to be a little more aggressive as long as the majority of the pieces you are flipping are inside of your opponents pieces. Right now, after move 4... you are the Island. This is what you want to be. Your island is big... which is not ideal... but... you're still the island which is good. His pieces are scattered about your island which should force him into bad moves and open up good moves(such as 5) for you. Move 5 for you... also perfect. You're playing really well. Just remember to try to keep your pieces inside of his. As long as you do this... you can afford to be a little aggressive at times.Quick question about if and when early game aggression can be appropriate, in my game against Frank up through move 4:
Are my moves 3 and 4 way too aggressive? I've been trying not to take so many pieces early on but doesn't this current spot leave me with more mobility than him? Intuitively it would seem good to me, but it might be a mistake I'm making due to lack of foresight and experience
One interesting thing that I've learned with this game is... new players are almost always WAY too aggressive. But then when people learn some basic general strategy... often times players aren't aggressive enough when they should be. Knowing when to be aggressive is one of the hardest things to learn in this game. When you make an aggressive play... if you're not cutting your pieces in the middle of your opponents pieces... it's probably not a smart aggressive play. If you created a lot of potential moves with your aggressive play... then it's likely a good play. I hope that answers your question. Good question btw. So much to learn in this game.Comment -
Yeah that all pretty much lines up with my thinking, thanks for another insightful answer
So the issue I've had with aggressively attacking that center triangle early is it will often get flipped around on me a bit later. I'm not sure if I need to be focusing harder on preventing this (and I'm not even necessarily sure the best way to prevent it). Like in the game I posted Frank ended up still getting some good inside pieces so I feel like I must have gone wrong somewhereComment -
Let me know if all the questions are annoying but I have another one! It's about Daniel's game against Chair-Man, move 32 from both sides. I would have done exactly what Daniel did, taking the unbalanced edge, because it's a move for us that takes away a move from Chair-Man
So two-part question for John: do you agree with that, and if so, wasn't it a mistake that Chair-Man didn't take that edge himself?Comment -
Good question. I think John said exactly that in a previous post, to take it and have him waste a move elsewhere. Or at least that's what I understood and why I did it. I'm not sure what he is supposed to do in that spot, I would guess just to take the unbalanced edge.Comment
