the truth about online poker software

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  • Roxxyfish
    SBR Posting Legend
    • 06-26-09
    • 12066

    #1
    the truth about online poker software
    the truth about online poker software
    Texas Holdem tournaments on the internet attract literally thousands of players everyday to sites that offer every kind of tournament you can imagine. Freerolls with small, and sometimes very high, cash prizes, buyins from 10 cents to $1000.00, satellites to major land based tournaments, bounty tournaments, freeze outs, you name it, and you can find it. And everyone who plays online has some incredible bad beat stories - one out hands hitting on the river, etc, seemingly in much greater mathematical probability than seems possible.


    This is where the "Action Flop" Theory comes in. Paul Phillips is credited with coining the phrase on the World Poker Tour. It defines an almost improbable hand result, where some great starting hands are played aggressively by skilled players that hit a flop nicely, but end up losing on the river to a vastly inferior hand. The classic bad beat suckout.


    I have statistically tracked a number of sites as I play them. And on certain sites (to remain nameless, but catch me in a game sometime, and I might spill the beans) there is most definitely a higher proportion of Action Flops near the bubbles. But first, lets make a note here. Cards dealt on the online casinos are NOT randomly dealt. A true random deal is mathematically impossible. They can get close, but never truly statistically random. I am not saying any sites are rigged, but do please read on. It has already been established that some sites use different shuffles for free games and for cash games. These sites lead the free player to believe they are better than they are, hoping to encourage them to deposit and play for cash.


    The theory behind action flops is quite simple. The Poker Action Flop is a flop that will encourage the good players to get very aggressive in a pot and then the new or bad player makes an unlikely river draw to suck out on the good player.


    And this happens! A lot! In fact, a lot more than it should, statistically.


    So why do all these bad beats happen? This is what the Poker Action Flop Theory explains.


    The Poker Action Flop Theory is simply this: the online poker room wants the bad players to beat the good players. Not all the time, just at certain points in a tournament. Skilled experienced players know that bad beats happen, and they can accept them as part of the game. If they are winning overall in the site, they stay and just pick another tournament to enter. But a new player or a bad player who doesn't win once in a while will stop playing there. Thus no more poker room deposit money from them. The online casinos want to spread the winning cash prizes around, so they create action flops to do this, according to the Action Flop Theory. They deliver great hands to the good players who then boost the pot, and the bad player sucks out on the river.


    Skilled and experienced winning Texas Holdem players tend to be very aggressive. They make value bets, forced calls against pot odds, high percentage semi bluffs, outright steals, and they slow play the fish right into the net. Skilled players know how to make the most out of every hand they play. Bad players are basically calling stations and have little knowledge of proper betting techniques. So if an Action Flop comes along, the skilled player has a lot of chips in the pot, and loses them to the bad player suckout.

    In the real world of Texas Holdem tournament play, new and bad players are easily beaten by superior players. Most of them don't stand a chance to win in a live multi table no limit holdem tournament. They are dead money. In land based casino poker room NL Texas Holdem tournaments, the skilled players get most of their chips from the bad players as they knock them out.

    So why is it different online? Action Flops!

    The Theory says that "ACTION FLOPS", those flops that bring big action to a hand and hurt the skilled players who are beaten by the river miracles. Online poker room owners know that in the general course of play, the highly skilled players would decimate the rest of the players. They need something to level the playing field or risk losing the majority of their players, and then the majority of their income. The Action Flop theory says this is the way they do it, by having Action Flops during the course of play. The better skilled players are penalized by chip loses and the new or unskilled players are rewarded with chip gains, and thus are retained as customers.


    The Action Flop Theory states that Action Flops are the mainstay of the online poker room business model.


    Action Flops let the winning players win far less than they would normally would.


    Action Flops let bad players play longer and even win money on occasion.


    Action Flops benefit bad players who continue calling on a draw against the aggressive skilled player.


    Action flops keep the new or bad players on the site, and the poker room makes more money.


    See below for an example of how the online poker rooms could use their Dynamic Dealing to Generate a Poker Action Flop without compromising in any way the integrity of their RNG card shuffle.


    How can you avoid falling into the Poker Action Flop Trap?






    Action flops will occur anytime in NL Texas Holdem tournament. Generally speaking, the first few rounds are free of Action Flops, since this is the most dangerous time for the player, and the time you usually see the most all in players. No need for them here, actually.


    As the game progresses, there usually will come a group of Action Flops. Watch for this as you play, and be very careful if you see the start of pattern of Action Flops. As a skilled player, you probably have an idea of who are the other skilled players at your table, and who are the new or unskilled players. If you see the later start to suckout, watch out!


    And, as I mentioned earlier, as you near the bubble, expect these action flops! They may are there and they may come! Remember, the poker room wants the new players and the bad players who have survived so far to make the money bubble. And if you are a skilled player, they may not want you to make the bubble!


    Your best tool is observation! Be very careful when on the button near the bubble. This is where the classic Poker Action Flop is set to give you that great hand to steal the blinds with, but may in fact be the hand that takes you out when the Big Blind sucks out in a Poker Action Flop!

    Learn more about Texas Holdem Poker Action Flops and how to spot them plus some untold poker secrets in the ebook:

    Example: We have two players in a hand, a skilled player who has won a lot of money on the site, aggressively betting his AK hand, and a newbie player, with no winnings at all on the site, holding AJ. The flop is A J, 3, turn is K. The skilled player goes all in on his AA KK, the top two pair. The newbie calls with his AA JJ. On the river the random card generator puts out a King to be dealt, which would give the skilled player a winning full house. The dynamic dealing program then would set aside the Ace, not deal it, and then the program continues to set aside the randomly generated cards until a Jack appears, then deals it as the river card. The the less skilled newbie player then outdraws the skilled player to win on the river.

    Even an audit of the random number generator will still validate the RNG because it is not compromised, it is the deal/distribution that is compromised.

    Some players claim they have detected a slight delay in river dealing by the site software when these outdraws occur.
  • nosniboR11
    SBR Posting Legend
    • 09-02-08
    • 10042

    #2
    good post, very interesting , have always noticed crazy things towards the bubble
    Comment
    • zlate22
      SBR Wise Guy
      • 01-15-10
      • 511

      #3
      yeah good post
      Comment
      • Jrod124
        SBR Hall of Famer
        • 10-31-09
        • 5622

        #4
        makes sense
        Comment
        • UsUschi
          Restricted User
          • 09-13-10
          • 158

          #5
          gr8t post from a gr8t poker player
          Comment
          • Ian
            SBR Hall of Famer
            • 11-09-09
            • 6071

            #6
            This is typical conspiracy theory nonsense. If you really have statistical evidence of cheating you should provide it when you make your claim. Instead you make a series of statements about the shuffle without any evidence to back them up.

            The term "action flop," btw, predates the World Poker Tour by quite a bit. It simply means a flop that is likely to hit a wide range of hands (QJT of the same suit for instance). Paul Phillips did not make up the term, and I'm over 99% confident that he wouldn't buy into your conspiracy theory.
            Comment
            • k13
              SBR Posting Legend
              • 07-16-10
              • 18104

              #7
              Nothing online can ever be 100% legit.
              Comment
              • daneblazer
                BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                • 09-14-08
                • 27861

                #8
                Comment
                • venhitman
                  Restricted User
                  • 03-02-10
                  • 200

                  #9
                  interesting theory!
                  Comment
                  • secret007
                    SBR MVP
                    • 01-12-09
                    • 1786

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Ian
                    This is typical conspiracy theory nonsense. If you really have statistical evidence of cheating you should provide it when you make your claim. Instead you make a series of statements about the shuffle without any evidence to back them up.

                    The term "action flop," btw, predates the World Poker Tour by quite a bit. It simply means a flop that is likely to hit a wide range of hands (QJT of the same suit for instance). Paul Phillips did not make up the term, and I'm over 99% confident that he wouldn't buy into your conspiracy theory.
                    This. Non sense, eventhough I am always on the wrong side of the bad beat..
                    Comment
                    • loyd
                      SBR Sharp
                      • 02-16-10
                      • 376

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Ian
                      This is typical conspiracy theory nonsense.
                      when a donk goes all in with a 5-2 unsuited and he wins against a AK doesn't that makes u believe in a conspiracy?
                      Comment
                      • FazzersGirl
                        SBR High Roller
                        • 06-22-10
                        • 166

                        #12
                        Great post!! Thanks!
                        Comment
                        • UsUschi
                          Restricted User
                          • 09-13-10
                          • 158

                          #13
                          I know Roxxy, nonsens or not ,Roxxy is a online and live PRO he knows what heis talkin about ,and good players still make profit ,there are just some simple rules to become a winning player,he gave me good tips to improve my game ,and it worked out well so far, i read a post from SBR poster sinmiedo he wrote the same
                          Comment
                          • daneblazer
                            BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                            • 09-14-08
                            • 27861

                            #14
                            Originally posted by UsUschi
                            I know Roxxy, nonsens or not ,Roxxy is a online and live PRO he knows what heis talkin about ,and good players still make profit ,there are just some simple rules to become a winning player,he gave me good tips to improve my game ,and it worked out well so far, i read a post from SBR poster sinmiedo he wrote the same
                            Roxxy is that you?


                            ...this "theory" is pretty silly.
                            Comment
                            • inflames
                              SBR Wise Guy
                              • 06-08-09
                              • 711

                              #15
                              Good post. I've experienced this also.
                              Comment
                              • Dark Horse
                                SBR Posting Legend
                                • 12-14-05
                                • 13764

                                #16
                                It's basically no different than giving a superior horse more weight to carry, or getting a handicap in golf. I actually agree with the underlying philosophy, and would applaud this in the world of online poker.

                                Then again, why would this be software related? Ask Phil Helmut. Clearly, the universe conspires against every single time he's eliminated.

                                So I wish it were true, but given the lawsuits that such software would be vulnerable to, I'm inclined to think that it's the perfect excuse used by good players when they lose. The Helmut act.
                                Last edited by Dark Horse; 10-06-10, 03:13 PM.
                                Comment
                                • Trident
                                  SBR MVP
                                  • 02-07-09
                                  • 2362

                                  #17
                                  Comment
                                  • Pajda
                                    SBR MVP
                                    • 03-25-09
                                    • 1385

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by loyd
                                    when a donk goes all in with a 5-2 unsuited and he wins against a AK doesn't that makes u believe in a conspiracy?
                                    Nope, 5-2 wins about 35%
                                    Comment
                                    • BeerDog99
                                      SBR MVP
                                      • 09-22-10
                                      • 4894

                                      #19
                                      I am not sure of the exact math but I thought no hand was more than a 3-1 dog before the flop. Either way I 100% agree that it hurts when I lose to a donk call or call a hand that is way ahead and lose but it doesn't change the fact that they still have a chance. What bugs me is that I seem to be on that short end of the stick too many times.

                                      I honestly don't think it is in the poker room's best interest in to skew the cards into "action flops" because there is enough action at all levels to make boat loads of rake being "honest"
                                      with no risk.

                                      Just ask Absolute and/or UB what happens when the customers don't trust you. They lost a lot of money in the scandel and it boils down to lack of trust and not just the cheaters.

                                      Just my opinion.

                                      Cheers,

                                      BeerDog
                                      Comment
                                      • BeerDog99
                                        SBR MVP
                                        • 09-22-10
                                        • 4894

                                        #20
                                        oh and I would love to see the data behind the original assertion. It would be interesting to analyze a bit.
                                        Comment
                                        • ROGUE63
                                          SBR Sharp
                                          • 09-20-10
                                          • 313

                                          #21
                                          hmmmmmmmmmmmm very interesting i always smelled something fishy lol
                                          Comment
                                          • trixtrix
                                            Restricted User
                                            • 04-13-06
                                            • 1897

                                            #22
                                            technically wouldn't that be action "river" NOT action "flop"?
                                            Comment
                                            • dimon
                                              SBR MVP
                                              • 08-14-09
                                              • 1159

                                              #23
                                              so go and play in land poker rooms
                                              Comment
                                              • OMGRandyJackson
                                                SBR MVP
                                                • 02-07-10
                                                • 1680

                                                #24
                                                I like how you leave the online rooms to remain nameless. Why dont u man up and say what poker sites you are talking about hmmmm?
                                                Comment
                                                • SpeedPro
                                                  SBR Wise Guy
                                                  • 09-06-10
                                                  • 643

                                                  #25
                                                  I have noticed that when beginners are low on chips and on the verge of getting knocked out, they suddenly go on a run that keeps them in the game. I have been there myself winning 4 or 5 hands in a row with highest hand every time. I thought that was odd but I was new so I thought it was just my lucky day. After that happened a few more times I started to get suspicious.
                                                  Comment
                                                  • LegitBet
                                                    Restricted User
                                                    • 05-25-10
                                                    • 538

                                                    #26
                                                    I can't believe all you guys missed this
                                                    the op cut and pasted this entire article. Notice one of the sentences references an ebook totally out of context
                                                    This whole thing must be from an ad to sell this ebook to disgruntled motivated losers
                                                    I'm right aren't I roxxyfish?
                                                    Comment
                                                    • BarkingToad
                                                      SBR Hall of Famer
                                                      • 08-31-08
                                                      • 5913

                                                      #27
                                                      Great articulate post roxxy. The action flops also happen in cash games to generate more rake. You didn't even mention how in a tourney someone low on chips has a playable hand to move all in and almost always runs into a top 5 hand.

                                                      I'm still amazed even after k13 thread showing all his beats and your article that people still have full faith and trust in online poker. Didn't PT Barnum or somebody have something to say about that?
                                                      Comment
                                                      • daneblazer
                                                        BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                        • 09-14-08
                                                        • 27861

                                                        #28



                                                        He didn't do the "study", it's been around for a while. He means well though. It's a good thing people don't understand things like variance, hand distribution and sample size. There wouldn't be nearly the money in poker that there is.
                                                        Comment
                                                        • secret007
                                                          SBR MVP
                                                          • 01-12-09
                                                          • 1786

                                                          #29
                                                          Poker rooms do not need "action flop" to make money. Do you think people would play in their rooms if they know the cards are "manipulated" in some ways.
                                                          Comment
                                                          • smitch124
                                                            SBR Posting Legend
                                                            • 05-19-08
                                                            • 12566

                                                            #30
                                                            I gotta believe more flushes fill on the turn online than should happen, but I have no study to prove this.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • necro
                                                              SBR MVP
                                                              • 06-07-09
                                                              • 1633

                                                              #31
                                                              losers know it's rigged
                                                              Comment
                                                              • coinpusha
                                                                SBR High Roller
                                                                • 11-24-08
                                                                • 147

                                                                #32
                                                                Great information, def. something to consider the next time i'm getting killed online
                                                                Comment
                                                                • loyd
                                                                  SBR Sharp
                                                                  • 02-16-10
                                                                  • 376

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Pajda
                                                                  Nope, 5-2 wins about 35%
                                                                  but does any player ever goes all in with a 5-2? if one does he is either stupid or he is an employee of the pokerroom and can see other player's cards.
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • BeerDog99
                                                                    SBR MVP
                                                                    • 09-22-10
                                                                    • 4894

                                                                    #34
                                                                    My point to my post was not to question the veracity of Roxxy nor the source of the action theory. I was just saying that I do not think the large online rooms would make enough to make the risk worth it. With all of the tools available and the very smart math wizards out there, they will be caught.

                                                                    That said, the PT. Barnum saying "a sucker is born even day" (or something similar) could equally apply to the lucky donk that pushes with 5-2off and wins or the people like me who believe that there are many lucky donkeys and I am not getting cheated by the poker room. It just depends on what the actual truth is and right now, I am of the opinion that the large online rooms are totally legit and my luck sucks....
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • Conan
                                                                      SBR MVP
                                                                      • 09-01-10
                                                                      • 1178

                                                                      #35
                                                                      interesting ill try and use this theory
                                                                      Comment
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