Live poker dealers lose jobs to machines

[DansFLB]

$2 average tip per hand?
there's no way that can be true on a $2/4 game or even a $5/10 or $10/20 limit game.
there's way too many hands out of that 25-30 per hour that don't make it past the flop.

the only games i have seen average tips that high are no limit games, and from what i have seen of machines they are mostly low limit games.

The $2 average tip per hand was a 6 month study we did before switching to Poker Pro, so for our casino that was a true realistic number. The game we mostly spread is $1/2 No Limit at the time with a $200 Max buy in. If you consider a 3/5 or 5/10 no limit game the average tip goes up to $3-4 per hand depending on the limit.

On a 2/4 limit game which we spread about twice a year the average tip would Probably be between $1-2. It's also important to consider the area you play in, we are in Folsom which is a nice and pretty well off area so maybe in other areas it might be a little bit lower but I can tell you not by much. As far as for our casino $2 a hand in tips is the average that was calculated and that represents the average for our Sacramento area. There is maybe one or two casinos within the Sacramento area that fall into worst neighborhoods that if you live here you may know where I'm talking about, that the average tip of $2 wouldn't reflect them.

[DansFLB]

but you bring up a good point about saving tips.

the point i have always tried to make to my poker-buddies is that if you play a $2/4 game or even a higher limit game you are almost certainly going to be down in the long run.

let's say $6 per player per hour in rake and another $2 per player per hour in tips (if we're using dan's numbers that would be $6/hour/player in tips).

so on a 5 hour session you're out $40 if you're breaking even. over the long run there's not that much of an advantage for a very good player to overcome 20 big blinds every session.

Here is another point I don't think I've talked about yet, if you are a winning player. Meaning you cash more than you leave behind your not only saving on tips and reduced rake but your winning percentage has now increased by 50%. So if you use to make $100 a session on average now you can save an additional $6 per hour on tips ($2 x 30 hands / 10 players) and you will see 50% more hands per hour so in a 5 hour session instead of making $100 you would make $180 ($100 x 1.5% increased win= $150 + $30 tips $6 saved tips x 5 hours of play = $180)

If a player isn't a winning a player it's usually because they play too many hands and that is a result of being bored and wanting to play poker instead of folding hands. Poker Pro is great because you see so many more hands you can fold the bad ones and wait for the good ones. It's much easier to do that when you don't have to wait for shuffling, split pots, player confusion, dealer switches, mistakes, and everything else that slows down a manual dealt game. So a loosing player will have a better chance at becoming a winning player because they won't feel the need to play every hand.

[Jrad86]

Sounds cool. Would help in our poker league.

ya we need to get one of those , that'd be nice

[bigboydan]

Went to a casino recently and was SHOCKED! that this is the only kind of live poker offered! If I wanted to play internet poker I could have saved time and gas money to do that at home!

First off, Welcome to the SBR forum

I couldn't agree more with you True. Now grant it that poker doesn't generate anything but the rake in regards to earned revenue for casinos, but come on.

[DansFLB]

First off, Welcome to the SBR forum

I couldn't agree more with you True. Now grant it that poker doesn't generate anything but the rake in regards to earned revenue for casinos, but come on.

Hey Dan, you welcome True but not me, why is that?

Poker generates a lot more than the earned rake, how about Jackpots, Freerolls, the entertainment of meeting and playing with new players at a place that has all the games on Plasma TV's, cocktail waitresses, Great Food, and you don't have to clean up the mess. There are many reasons why players choose to go out to bars, casinos, etc to have a good time.

[bigboydan]

Hey Dan, you welcome True but not me, why is that?

Good question that I have absolutely no answer for. Anyways, Welcome to the SBR forum DansFLB

[DansFLB]

Good question that I have absolutely no answer for. Anyways, Welcome to the SBR forum DansFLB

Thanks Dan, you probably have never met me, but I'm a pretty down to earth Poker Player, and I would rather have a positive conversation back & forth to talk about the differences between both forms of poker and what the positives are for each way of playing.

If there is anyone interested in coming and checking out our Poker Pro tables, I would be more than happy to meet you at our casino and give anyone of you a free demo and information on playing Poker Pro! This is something we rarely do, but for good will towards the players on this Forum, I will pay for a one time half of your buy-in to our $40 morning tournament which includes breakfast, or set you up with $100 in chips for $70 in any of our Limit or No Limit Cash Games.

To take me up on this offer send me an email at xxxx@xxxxx.com

Best Regards,
Dan

[bigboydan]

I appreciate the offer sir. If and when I get out that way I might just have to take you up on that nice offer.

BTW, Sorry I had to delete your Email address due to the fact it's against company policy.

[DansFLB]

I appreciate the offer sir. If and when I get out that way I might just have to take you up on that nice offer.

BTW, Sorry I had to delete your Email address due to the fact it's against company policy.

No problem, I understand, anyone can just go to our website www.folsomlakebowl.com and go to contact us. My name is Dan & I look forward to meeting any of you.

[rugbybdyb]

Dan,

Thanks for the in depth analysis of the new poker tables. I have to say that I really see the advantages but from first hand experience from playing them I just dont like it. I know there are a lot more hands per hour etc but it just seemed that the odds that you usually see in live dealt poker were messed up, A lot of hands that usually would win in a live dealt game were getting beat....But heres the deal, next time Im around I will put $100 to the machine and a $100 at a live dealt game and play the same amount of time at each game, count number of hands, tips etc and see if I missed something the first time I played it. Thanks for the information.

[jon13009]

Thanks Dan, you probably have never met me, but I'm a pretty down to earth Poker Player, and I would rather have a positive conversation back & forth to talk about the differences between both forms of poker and what the positives are for each way of playing.

1. What about players who are talking about their hands (or showing their hands) to other players? If there is no live dealer, what security measures are implemented to insure there is no cheating among the live players besides video cameras?

2. Are there time limits to prevent players from slowing the game down?

3. Can the machines handle (or be programmed for) tournament play?

4. Is the management monitoring the play and does the management have access to super accounts like the management at Absolute Poker where they set up a player to scam the other participants? Will the house players, prop players be identified? Will the house know who the prop players and house players are?

5. What are the auditing procedures for these tables? How are these tables regulated?

6. What are the RNGs utilized for the tables? Can the RNGs procedures be altered according to management?

7. If a player requests a complete hand history, will the management comply with such a request?

8. What assurances do I have that the management will have no ability to influence the outcome of the hands towards certain players at the table?

[DansFLB]

Dan,

Thanks for the in depth analysis of the new poker tables. I have to say that I really see the advantages but from first hand experience from playing them I just dont like it. I know there are a lot more hands per hour etc but it just seemed that the odds that you usually see in live dealt poker were messed up, A lot of hands that usually would win in a live dealt game were getting beat....But heres the deal, next time Im around I will put $100 to the machine and a $100 at a live dealt game and play the same amount of time at each game, count number of hands, tips etc and see if I missed something the first time I played it. Thanks for the information.

rugbybdyb you are right, AA and other hands get beat 50% more of the time while sitting at a poker Pro table. That is because you see 50% more hands, you will also see those hands hold up 50% more of the time. You are not alone a lot of players comment that they see crazy hands, well those hands happen on manual dealt tables but when you take so long to deal out cards a lot of time playing poker is wasted. When you play on a Poker Pro table you can wait for better hands because you see so many more cards. The players I've seen that do really well are patient and they don't try to play every hand. This is the same for a manually dealt table but more noticeable when you see more hands per hour.

I encourage you to see for yourself what I'm talking about, you will be surprised at what you see. I would also recommend playing tighter when you play automated, and see the difference. Even though people say they see crazy hands and bad beats, in a year with the automated tables we have never seen quads beating quads or anything more extreme, not to say it won't happen tomorrow, but it's all statistics. We have had our bad beat jackpot hit 5 times in 10 months but that was AAAJJ beaten by 2222 or better. That's always a good thing when you really get beat bad, at least at the FLB casino! Average BBJP $23,000

[DansFLB]

Great Questions, here's your answers:

1. What about players who are talking about their hands (or showing their hands) to other players? If there is no live dealer, what security measures are implemented to insure there is no cheating among the live players besides video cameras?

The Floor person is in charge of the room and is constantly monitoring the tables. Players are usually very quick to jump in and call another player on etiquette but the Floor person is there if they don't say anything. It really is rarely a problem but occasionally we have to say something to a player.

2. Are there time limits to prevent players from slowing the game down?

The casino sets the time limit to act, for the FLB casino the time limit on Live games is 60 seconds, which is more than enough time, and is rarely utilized fully. On our tournaments the time frame is 40 seconds to act.

3. Can the machines handle (or be programmed for) tournament play?

Absolutely, we run 3 tournaments a day, they are very popular. The tables run single table & multi table tournaments for Texas Hold'em & Omaha.

4. Is the management monitoring the play and does the management have access to super accounts like the management at Absolute Poker where they set up a player to scam the other participants? Will the house players, prop players be identified? Will the house know who the prop players and house players are?

The management monitors the floor but not the game as far as who's winning or losing, etc. There are no super accounts. There is nobody including management, owners, admin, or Poker Tek that can set up a player or account to scam. On the casino side we cannot even look up what a player's cards were if they mucked them and elected to not show. The tables are extremely secure & protected from anything like that.

Usually in a Ca casino the prop players have to be identified, we do not have prop players, so at our casino the answer is the only employee playing at the table may be a floor person and if they are playing, yes they will be wearing a badge.

5. What are the auditing procedures for these tables? How are these tables regulated?

Speaking for Poker Pro tables they have to go through a very rigorous testing process done by an independent lab. In Ca the Poker Pro tables were GLI ( Gaming Laboratory International ) certified to be 100% Random. The shuffle is based off of a 52 card deck and the cards are dealt out just as a dealer would distribute them starting after the button one card at a time. Poker pro also burns cards during process of the hand just as you would see on a manual dealt table. The tables provide the purest shuffle and mistake free deal possible in a game of poker.

6. What are the RNGs utilized for the tables? Can the RNGs procedures be altered according to management?
The tables are GLI certified and CANNOT be altered in way by anyone period. For more info google poker pro GLI certification there is all the info you could ever want. I can also send you our info if you wanted.

7. If a player requests a complete hand history, will the management comply with such a request?

The player first off can see the last hand at anytime during the current hand while playing. So if you ever have a question on who won, how the cards came out, what you had, etc. You can always view the last hand by clicking the last hand option on the top of your screen. This answers almost any questions that ever come up.
If a player wanted a hand to be replayed, the management can make that request happen, no problem. Management can only see a player's cards if the player opted to show their cards, or if they call to the river. Management does not have the option to show or print out a complete hand history for a period of time etc, but any hand can be replayed on any table.

8. What assurances do I have that the management will have no ability to influence the outcome of the hands towards certain players at the table?

First off you have the GLI certification and guarantee, which the state of CA uses. That cert. took over a year to complete and over a million hands analyzed to certify the poker pro tables for CA. Poker Pro has been tested by each state they are licensed in and they are all over the world. There has not been one governing agency to find the tables not random, or suitable. You also have the casino's word and my personal guarentee that these tables are everything we say they are. GLI certified to be RNG's and that there is no possible way management can alter or scam on any poker game.

The interest of poker tek and the FLB casino, is to provide the best possible poker game possible, that's what players want! The ability to play poker faster, without mistakes, and with more money staying on the table!

Sorry if I talked too long, I just want to fully answer your questions, congratulations if you made it this far!

[DansFLB]

A couple Huge New Promotions the FLB Casino has just brought to players in the Sacramento area are:

The Biggest Texas Hold'em Bad Beat Jackpot on the West Coast! The FLB Casino now offers a $1,000,000 BBJP! When the BBJP hits the Jackpot will be payed out 40% to the BB 20% to the winner & 40% to the table. The hand to beat is 4444 beaten by any suit Royal Flush. There is no manual dealt casino in the world that offers a Texas Hold'em Jackpot even close! The Million Dollar BBJP is also 100% Casino funded so the players pay nothing, it's just an added bonus!

The other big news is that we have lowered our collection for all Limit games at the FLB casino. Now if you like $2/4, $3/6 or $4/8 Limit games you can play them at the FLB casino in Folsom Ca for a maximum collection rate of $3 and that includes both our $10,000 seeded progressive BBJP & the $1,000,000 BBJP!

Players also earn points playing all our texas hold'em games towards our Monthly freeroll tournaments & Bonus Cash Payouts. For more info check out www.folsomlakebowl.com

[jon13009]

Great Questions, here's your answers:



First off you have the GLI certification and guarantee, which the state of CA uses. That cert. took over a year to complete and over a million hands analyzed to certify the poker pro tables for CA. Poker Pro has been tested by each state they are licensed in and they are all over the world. There has not been one governing agency to find the tables not random, or suitable. You also have the casino's word and my personal guarentee that these tables are everything we say they are. GLI certified to be RNG's and that there is no possible way management can alter or scam on any poker game.

The interest of poker tek and the FLB casino, is to provide the best possible poker game possible, that's what players want! The ability to play poker faster, without mistakes, and with more money staying on the table!

Sorry if I talked too long, I just want to fully answer your questions, congratulations if you made it this far!

You didn't answer my question regarding live players who are cheating at the table - and this happens ALL the time at live tables.

If there are players who are discussing their hands, a live dealer will stop them.

If there is a machine dealing, and there is no supervisor watching, what (or who) will stop them from cheating?

[DansFLB]

I did answer your question in the reply to questions #1 & #4. The Floor person is constantly monitoring the tables while on the floor. The Floor persons main job is to monitor the tables and make sure everything is running smoothly and the players have everything they need, such as a game that suits their needs, accommodating a table change, making sure their is no player collusion, making sure their is a cocktail waitress close by at all times for Food and Drink orders, etc The Floor person is the manager running the casino, the players know they are on the floor and thus when you have someone constantly monitoring the game it's very uncommon to have players trying to cheat. Not to mention other players are just as quick to call attention to bad player etiquette, so in the event that a floor person is taking care of something else and misses a player looking at another players hand someone will usually still call it to the floor persons attention. On Poker Pro tables, at anytime you can call a floor person to the table, your seat, and or pause the game and call the host if needed. At our casino it hasn't been a problem, our players know that we don't tolerate cheating at all

In a smaller size room like ours on an average night of 3 tables running one floor person can handle the floor. On busier nights like Friday & Saturday one person can do it, but for better customer service we have 2 floor people and a cage person. I have played in Michigan at the Four Winds casino, which is a 15 table 100% poker pro room and they usually have about 1 floor person for every 4 tables running at a time. Like I said it's not a necessity but to provide excellent customer service it's what we do.

[jon13009]

Ok Dan, thanks, but the floor managers can't possibly be watching every table all the time for people discussing their hands and cheating. Dealers are participating in all of the hands and know what is really going on, and will be more likely to spot people cheating than a floating pit boss.

Other players are not likely to point out cheaters unless they are house players or pros. If you are playing at the opposite end of a table where there are people colluding, it is unlikely you can hear them, and I am often surprised when dealers tell people to stop discussing their hands or talking about their hands during play because I didn't see or hear it happening.

We can debate on and on about his, but I still see video hold em poker as a major location for pro players looking to cheat rookie players by collusion.

Final question:

What about if I want a listing of the hand histories I have played and those who have participated in the hands I have played? Can I have it if I ask the management? If not why? This is the only thing that would make me want to play a video poker game because it would provide some assurance that these hands are being recorded and scanned for possible collusion and in-house fraud by house super-accounts. Also, it would provide a means of analyzing my play. Are mt stats avalable as well? Can I take notes on players as I play?

[DansFLB]

Jon here are your answers:
As of Jan 16th we've had our fully automated Poker Pro tables, and in that one year we have had no problems with player collusion to mention. We have had to warn a couple players every now and then but it has NOT been an issue at all. As in any casino we have had to tell a couple players to only speak english at the table, and we have had to stop a group of deaf players from signing while they were in a hand. It's not to say that either one of these people were colluding but regardless they were told they couldn't communicate that way while the hand was still in play. I can see how this could be a major concern for you but it's never been an issue in over a year.

Our floor managers are on top of it, sure a well trained dealer may at times have a closer interaction with the players but like I said at our casino it has never been an issue.

At our casino our players like it for many reasons but mainly because it's faster, no mistakes, more money stays on the table, and it's fun. Until you try it, it's hard to believe how much better it is, but you will truly be impressed.

Just like any brick and mortar casino we cannot give that kind of information out. We don't have reports for that kid of information either. There are no super accounts etc. and unlike the internet our tables have gone through testing in Ca and many other states to guarantee the protection of the players and that the tables are 100% legitimate. If you want to keep your own record mentally or on paper of how other players play that's ok but the casino will not give that information to anyone. You can have a printout of your buy ins and cash outs but not of how you or others played. That may be a feature in the future, I don't think so but I'm not sure.

Poker Pro designs their table to give the players as close to a feel of traditional poker but just faster with zero mistakes. You should check it out at a casino near you, it's a lot of fun and a great way to play poker.

[Poker_Beast]

They are also starting this in Tunica. I would much rather player with a dealer. Play online if you want screens and automation.

[DansFLB]

Many places are taking automated poker because players are seeing the massive benefits. After playing on the automated tables and then playing on a manual dealt table you get bored quickly, you end up getting frustrated with player mistakes and occasional dealer mistakes, and then remember you have to tip after all that.

Playing automated poker is much better than manual dealt tables and online because it's the best of both worlds. The reason why it's better than online is because you can see and read your opponents. It's also a lot more fun being able to talk to the other players and being able to know there names etc.

Try it out and find out for yourself before you make your conclusions. Our players love it!

[rugbybdyb]

Dan,

Thanks for all of the time you have spent on this subject, you have talked me in to trying it again.....

[bigboydan]

I heard that they just starting using these machines in some casino in Toronto this weekend.

[20Four7]

Well it wasn't at Casino Rama (maybe GBH in Port Perry?). I was there on Saturday and it was business as usual. What I did notice was an electronic roulette table mind you.

[bigboydan]

I think it was Port Perry 24/7

[Al Masters]

Well it wasn't at Casino Rama (maybe GBH in Port Perry?). I was there on Saturday and it was business as usual. What I did notice was an electronic roulette table mind you.

How are the games at Rama these days, still only limit?