Is matchbook ripping me off?

AgainstAllOdds · 06-12-08, 04:23 PM

Thats why they offer no....if you think about it....why would they offer a Yes AND a No on the same team? Its because the Yes comes with diffrent rules than the no. In your case you got the push which is the correct ruling.

Sorry bud...I dont know if this is standard for every book but then again I dont know that many books that offer the Yes and No for the same team.

betplom · 06-12-08, 04:37 PM

This type of betting is very common at UK books.

The wagers you described would be called "3 way" betting (Both Sides and Draw) at Stan James, Bet365 etc. etc.

There is no push involved in 3 way wagers.

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http://www.soccertipsking.com/Soccer-Betting-Guides/Betting-Glossary.html

bettilimbroke999 · 06-12-08, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by betplom

This type of betting is very common at UK books.

The wagers you described would be called "3 way" betting (Both Sides and Draw) at Stan James, Bet365 etc. etc.

There is no push involved in 3 way wagers.

http://www.soccertipsking.com/Soccer...-Glossary.html

Then how did my Poland not to win get a push on a draw?

LT Profits · 06-12-08, 04:41 PM

That does NOT sound right bettill, because the Draw has its own indiivdual Yes/No option. Therefore, if you take the No on a team to win, you should collect if the team loses OR draws! Your bet is that the team will not win, and a draw is not a win so you should win.

bettilimbroke999 · 06-12-08, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by AgainstAllOdds

Thats why they offer no....if you think about it....why would they offer a Yes AND a No on the same team? Its because the Yes comes with diffrent rules than the no. In your case you got the push which is the correct ruling.

Sorry bud...I dont know if this is standard for every book but then again I dont know that many books that offer the Yes and No for the same team.

They would offer a No b/c they make a percentage commission of winning bets AAO thus No would be the opposite of Yes so either No would win or Yes would win, the bets should have the same rules any loss of a Yes to win bet should be a win for a No to win bet and vice versa.

betplom · 06-12-08, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by bettilimbroke999

Then how did my Poland not to win get a push on a draw?

Good question. Perhaps they did make a mistake, from your description it sounds like they offered 6 outcomes to bet on, not 3.

I don't play at Matchbook and haven't looked at the site, I'm going by what your saying.

Stacocakes · 06-12-08, 04:45 PM

at most books if you bet a team NOT to win then if its a draw or the other team wins you win your bet.Only way you lose is if your team that you backed not to win actually wins the game
It actually says in the rules that a draw would be a push?That is retarded.I suggest if you want to do these types of bets in the future to get a different book.I hate when books try to screw gamblers out of money.
Your poland not to win should be graded as a win since Poland did not win
If you want a good book for soccer, check Betfair if you can get on there.You can make the bets that you want to make above at that book and probably get better odds

AgainstAllOdds · 06-12-08, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by bettilimbroke999

They would offer a No b/c they make a percentage commission of winning bets AAO thus No would be the opposite of Yes so either No would win or Yes would win, the bets should have the same rules any loss of a Yes to win bet should be a win for a No to win bet and vice versa.

LOL I have no clue what that says but you are right!

bettilimbroke999 · 06-12-08, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by LT Profits

That does NOT sound right bettill, because the Draw has its own indiivdual Yes/No option. Therefore, if you take the No on a team to win, you should collect if the team loses OR draws! Your bet is that the team will not win, and a draw is not a win so you should win.

That's what I'm saying, but I called up Matchbook and questioned the CS girl for around 20 mins over 110 bucks that I felt I should've won instead of gettting a push and got nowhere. It doesn't make sense to me, but then again I don't bet soccer much. Is there any1 who bets soccer on Matchbook who is familiar with the 3way rules? It makes no sense to me b/c there are 3 separate markets, so I said who gets the Yes to win money that was lost and she said that goes to the ppl who chose draw

even though I know that the draw market is a completely separate yes or no option, matchbook CS act like they are at the front desk of a Holiday Inn, they act completely clueless about sports betting.

Wheell · 06-12-08, 04:50 PM

I think they made a grading error thinking that 90 minutes meant 90 minutes not counting injury time. The goal in the 93rd minute counts.

bettilimbroke999 · 06-12-08, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by AgainstAllOdds

LOL I have no clue what that says but you are right!

Wheell · 06-12-08, 04:50 PM

Send an e-mail to Matchbook.

Stacocakes · 06-12-08, 04:52 PM

What doesn't make sense is that matchbook makes money on NET profits don't they? So Wouldn't they not want a bet to push because if it did they would make no commission on it....

bettilimbroke999 · 06-12-08, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Wheell

Send an e-mail to Matchbook.

I called them and got nowhere, they said that's how they grade soccer, said the Yes to win money that was lost was won by the draws, sounds like complete ripoff BS to me but that's what they said. I may send them an email just so I can post the response on here.

bettilimbroke999 · 06-12-08, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Stacocakes

What doesn't make sense is that matchbook makes money on NET profits don't they? So Wouldn't they not want a bet to push because if it did they would make no commission on it....

They are pushing the No and grading the Yes a loss, in other words they are in all likelihood sticking the Yes money in their hip pockets.

Wheell · 06-12-08, 04:57 PM

It is a grading error.

Poland Win Yes loses.
Poland Lose No wins.

Austria Win Yes loses.
Austria Lose no wins.

Draw Yes wins.
Draw no loses.

That is how Matchbook's 3 way betting is graded.

Stacocakes · 06-12-08, 05:00 PM

The shitty thing is that he is right but trying to convey that he is right to these people on the phone that have no idea is going to be difficult.Do they have a grader that you can talk to?The customer service people will just be a waste of time.
Let us know if they give you the money for this.

LT Profits · 06-12-08, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by bettilimbroke999

They are pushing the No and grading the Yes a loss, in other words they are in all likelihood sticking the Yes money in their hip pockets.

That's wrong. Matchbook is a person-to-person exchange, so since the Yes is obviously a loss, the No HAS to be a winner. Unless all sides push (not the case here), one side has to win and one side has to lose. Send them an email quoting what I just wrote word for word.

bettilimbroke999 · 06-12-08, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Wheell

It is a grading error.

Poland Win Yes loses.
Poland Lose No wins.

Austria Win Yes loses.
Austria Lose no wins.

Draw Yes wins.
Draw no loses.

That is how Matchbook's 3 way betting is graded.

This all stems back from two weeks ago, I placed a bet on Chelsea/Man Untd NOT to win and the match ended in a draw, the bet was graded as a push

Odds Stake ($) Market P&L ($)
Chelsea (to win) (no) -214 228.84 0.00
Chelsea (to win) (no) -212 10.60 0.00

Subtotal 0.00
Commission 0.00
Commission Credit 0.00
Totals 239.44 0.00

So I called them and live chatted with them for 30 mins and was told that the team DID NOT LOSE so it was a push, I went back and forth with them that I bet the team NOT TO WIN, THEY DID NOT WIN SO HOW DID I GET A PUSH, I was told that's how they grade the wagers and was hungup on etc. over the course of 30 mins so I was under the impression (can't remember if I was told this or just assumed it) that the Yes to win bets that I matched were pushed as well, BUT APPARENTLY THEIR FUNDS WERE TAKEN BY MATCHBOOK

So for the last couple days I tried a few small test bets to see what ACTUALLY happens to Yes bets on a draw (like $20 on both sides as I had explained to the woman on the Man/Chelsea bet if draws were a push you could just bet on both sides and you would either win or get a push since both had + odds, she argued with me in for 30 mins that the odds don't always fall like that

). This match drew and I lost 20 on both sides, okay so I see they must've misgraded my Chelsea wager, so I call them up and they tell me YES TO WINS LOSE ON A DRAW BUT NO TO WINS PUSH DRAWS

, I argue again for 20 mins and get nowhere.

Austria (to win) (yes) +218 30.00 -30.00
Poland(to win) (yes) +149 13.42 -13.42

Subtotal -43.42
Commission 0.00
Commission Credit 0.00
Totals 43.42 -43.42

betplom · 06-12-08, 05:09 PM

This is how it could have been listed to avoid any possibility of a push.

Market 1: Team A to win
Market 2: Team A to lose
Market 3: Team B to win
Market 4: Team B to lose
Market 5: Draw

OR
(This is the way a traditional book would list it)
Market 1: Team A to win
Market 2: Team B to win
Market 3: Draw

bettilimbroke999 · 06-12-08, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by betplom

This is how it could have been listed to avoid any possibility of a push.

Market 1: Team A to win
Market 2: Team A to lose
Market 3: Team B to win
Market 4: Team B to lose
Market 5: Draw

OR
(This is the way a traditional book would list it)
Market 1: Team A to win
Market 2: Team B to win
Market 3: Draw

Yes, a traditional book would not have the No to win options or betting against an event happening that matchbook does, in any event No to win should always win or lose, yet somehow Matchbook comes with a PUSH for my Chelsea/Man United bet and somehow grades Yes to wins losses on draws

LT Profits · 06-12-08, 05:14 PM

When you bet on a NO, you are betting on a team not to win, you are NOT betting on a team to lose. That is the crucial distinction in the grading of this bet.

fingas · 06-12-08, 05:15 PM

SUREAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it ends as a draw or as a lost, you should have your winnings on the NO.

At betfair, we also have 6 possibles outcomes for each match:

-the normal 1 x 2 or
team A to win
Draw
team B to win

(just like in any regular bookie)

And the lay options
-If you LAY team A, you win your bet if team A gets a draw or lose the match;
-If you LAY the draw, you get your winnings when one of the teams wins the match;
-If you LAY team B, you get your winnings if team B gets a draw or lose the match.

So you get your winnings on the Lay bets when something doesn't happens.

How tha fukk do they do it on matchbook is beyond me....

SUREAL!!!

LT Profits · 06-12-08, 05:18 PM

Again, Matchbook cannot have markets where one side loses and the other side pushes. If Draws lose for those that bet the Yes to win, then Draws HAVE TO WIN for those that bet No to win. An exchange cannot have one-sided decisions on markets. Again, send them an email with my wording so that it could get through their thick skulls.

fingas · 06-12-08, 05:19 PM

bettilimbroke999, can you tell me what odds do you have for tomorrow match between Holland and france?

If you want to bet on Holland NOT to win

betplom · 06-12-08, 05:20 PM

I'll admit I had similar experience in the past and to avoid this sort of problem I try to use "Asian Handicap" wagering or something with a + or -0.5 in it to avoid a push.

Have a look at Canbet soccer wagers, lots of options.

Shark79 · 06-12-08, 05:29 PM

Rule: Dont bet what u dont understand

fingas · 06-12-08, 05:38 PM

bettilimbroke999, you are being RIPPED OFF BIG STYLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a bunch of stupid people, let me say........
Although they have a strange kind of way of putting their odds.

As told before, betting in soccer outcomes at the exchanges can have 6 different outcomes.

BUT, there are also different ways to turn around those LAY bets.

For example, tomorrow's match between Holland and France, odds taken from matchbook:

holland to win YES - 2.66
holland to win NO - 1.565

Now looking at betfair for the same odds you get:

BACK holland - 2.72 (better odds like always

)
Lay holland - 2.74

What does that 2.74 price of the lay bet means?
It means that if you put a LAY BET of the amount of 57.47€ you are risking to lose 100€.
Or transforming this like they have at matchbook, you can bet on HOLLAND NOT TO WIN THE MATCH at odds of 1.5747, similar like the 1.565 they have.

The difference is that making this LAY bet at betfair you get winnings if HOLLAND DRAWS or LOSE the match.

if you think holland will not win this match then you have also another option to bet on this match by placing only back bets.
How?

You back France and also Back the draw.
For a total stake of 100€, taking the odds of matchbook, you can place these bets:

France to win YES - stake 51.30 at odds of 3
Draw to win YES - stake 48.70 at odds of 3.16

In the end, if Holland doesn't win, you will get one of these 2 bets right and make a profit of 53.90 over the 100€ total staked.

So, you get 1.539 odds for france to win or get a draw.

Which are very similar like the 1.565 odds they have for the option of HOLLAND to win NO.

So as you see you are being ripped off big time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wheell · 06-12-08, 05:46 PM

Again, this is an OBVIOUS grading error. E-mail them such that someone with an understanding of sports betting reads it and it will be corrected.

bettilimbroke999 · 06-12-08, 05:52 PM

Thank you for your insight fingas, I am sure I am correct on this and am being ripped off for 110 dollars so I live chatted with "stan" from Matchbook CS to try to figure out what the fuks goin on....here's that chat....just in case you don't like to read I will cut to the chase and tell you once again I got absolutely nowhere arguing for 20 mins with matchbook, so I have invested too much effort in this for a 110 bucks to argue anymore, I will simply advise all SBR members to avoid making a No to Win wager on soccer at Matchbook.

: Soccer grading question
________________________________________
** You are now speaking with Stanley, General Inquiries. **
Stanley : Welcome to Matchbook.com
: Hey Stan
: I have a question about a bet that I contacted them about right after it was graded and discussed for 30 mins and was told that's how they grade soccer
: but all indications are that it was misgraded
: The bet was placed on 5/21 between Chelsea/Man United
: I bet 240 to win 110 on No to win on Chelsea, the match ended in a draw, thus I was sure I had won my wager
: but it was graded a draw and I called and talked for 30 mins explaining that it was misgraded and they told me that's how they grade soccer
: No to win, according to them pushes on draws
Stanley : Look at it as 3 people running a race.
: Yet I bet 40 on yes to win today, the match ended in a draw and they graded it a LOSS, then told me that the no to win was somehow given to the ppl who bet draw????
: then told me that my money was lost to the ppl who bet draw and that the no to wins were pushes???
: in a yes or no market HOW CAN YOU HAVE A PUSH STAN???
: explain this to me, either the yes wins or the no wins
Stanley : because it is a multi runner market
Stanley : basically because of the situation that you had first this is the reason that the no to win pushes
Stanley : in a draw
Stanley : in a draw the yes to win will lose
: So where does the yes to wins money go, anyone would assume it would have been won by the no to wins that matched their bets???
Stanley : it is a multirunner market so all the participants, all 6 runners are connected
Stanley : it goes to the persons that win the draw
: THE DRAW IS A SEPARATE MARKET
Stanley : no it isnt
: ppl bet on yes or no to draw in a separate market
: Yes it is take a look at the soccer page
Stanley : they are all together
: There is a yes/no for Team A, a yes or no for Team B and a yes/no for Draw
Stanley : I am telling you that all the runners, eg. chealsea, man u and draw (che/mu)
Stanley : it is one market with 3 runners
: Come on man get real, I'm lookin at the page right now
: when you make a bet no to win it doesn't affect the draw odds
: it only affects the yes to win odds
Stanley : i understand what you are saying, but in an ideal ninary market situation you will be correct
Stanley : but this is not a binary market
: look you are LAYING THE TEAM TO WIN OK
: anything except them winning would be a win for the nos
Stanley : I understand how you think it should work
: anything except them winning would be a loss for the yeses
Stanley : but it doesnt work that way
Stanley : That is how we grade soccer markets
: no one I've talked to agrees with it
: they all believe you made a grading error
: as do I
Stanley : I appreciate that fact that they think so
Stanley : but we have explained how it has worked
: okay well its only 110 bucks it's not a huge deal but I assure you I'll never bet soccer again under those rules
: I see no way that the yes to win bets that are only matched by the no to win somehow feed into the draw market
: on draws
Stanley : the draw is not a separate market, this is what i am trying to explain. It operates as separate market but has affect on the other two because it is a 3 runner market.
Stanley : so each result is not bonary
Stanley : binary
: Okay well let me ask this one last thing
: why when I make a bet yes or no to win on a team do the odds not change at all in the draw market
Stanley : read the above statement, i said It operates as separate market but has affect on the other two because it is a 3 runner market.

: if the draw market is determined by the yes/no market how come the odds of the draw market are only changed by the yes/no bets on to draw?
Stanley : ok look, the soccer markets are graded that way to stop people taking adavntage
Stanley : or people sould just be no all the time and never lose
Stanley : are you understanding that, so each runner ties into the other, but doesnt affect the odds the way a futures market would
Stanley : I am sorry that you see the rules as unfair
: makes no sense at all stan to be honest I'm not understanding at all, but since I'm getting nowhere on this even though an entire group of degenerate gamblers agrees with me and disagrees with you I don't know what else to say
: I will just no longer wager on soccer at matchbook, I like matchbook for all other sports but I am not agreeing on your grading rules on soccer
Stanley : If you were to take them as seperate entities it would work the way you are explaining
Stanley : but because a draw has an affect on both other runners, it is done that way
: ok well every1 on the planet says they should be taken as separate entities since Yes bets are matched by No bets and vice versa
: look I have no prob with a yes to win bet losing on a draw
: but if someone matches it with a no to win bet they SHOULD WIN ON A DRAW
Stanley : maybe other sportsbooks will grade out soccre that way
: but is all good stan I dont care enough about a 110 bucks to argue anymore
: I, like every1 else that posts at my degen gambling site love matchbook....but your soccer grading needs some work man
: gl2u stan
Stanley : you have a nice day

Not included in chat but I wanted to say....

I'll have a much nicer day if you give me my 110 bucks cocksucker

betplom · 06-12-08, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by bettilimbroke999

I'll have a much nicer day if you give me my 110 bucks cocksucker

You should use this as your signature in any further correspondance with them.

I stopped using Matchbook for a couple of reasons, one you have already mentioned,CS sounds like Holiday inn front desk employees (no offense to Holiday inn front desk employees intended). They also appear to be understaffed, once I called in 6 times in a 24 hour period and got the same guy, I think it was "Sheldon" every time I called, obviously their system relies on a program of some sort to handle everything.

Yeah, they have low juice, so does Pinny, and I choose Pinny over Matchbook.
Pinny has MANY more wagering options, Matchbook doesn't come close.

Wheell · 06-12-08, 06:13 PM

Again, e-mail them, this is something they have no real choice but to correct. If need be SBR can handle this.

fingas · 06-12-08, 06:17 PM

I only don't bet there because they don't take EUROS as a currency.....

I agree that juice is lower in US sports but in all the other ones no one beats betfair odds.

Basically, when betting on soccer with matchbook, the odds they are reflecting on their market are like this:

Holland to win YES - (no doubt about this one)
Holland to win NO - (placing a bet on this outcome should be the same as backing X2 for the match)

Draw to win YES - (no doubts)
Draw to win NO - (same as backing 1 and 2)

france to win YES - (no doubts)
france to win NO - (same as backing 1 X)

What they are doing it's a complete mistake....

SBR should really take a look at this, not only you'll get your winnings and this way also paying commission to them but they will certain have to change it.

IF they can't deal with a 3 way market better change those soccer lines to handicaps or something like that with a 2 way lines

bettilimbroke999 · 06-12-08, 06:21 PM

Wheell I have talked to 3 diff ppl both on the phone and in live chat about this and they all say the same thing, they have claimed to have discussed with whoever is in charge at matchbook, if indeed they have some1 in charge and I get the same exact response everytime. I post this mainly to help my fellow SBR degens avoid similar problems, I am no longer worried about the 110 bucks, it is just a lesson learned for me, if that's the way they choose to grade No to win soccer wagers, then you'd have to be a complete idiot to make that wager, had I known their grading rules beforehand I would've never made the bet. I simply hope this thread saves someone else hassle and money.