Iraq IS Vietnam - And We Shall Cry Hot Tears . . .

[ritehook]

"WE ARE SEEING THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL"

No, it's not a quote from Cheney, nor from his puppety friend sitting in the Oval Office.

Nor from some bozo over at the American Enterprise Institute.

It's a 1968 statement, now infamous, by GEneral Wm Westmoreland, just before the Viet Cong launched their Tet offensive, which would, in retrospect, be the beginning of the end of the American adventure in Vietnam.

A few years after the General's optimiistic words, the last US forces were helicoptering out of Saigon in panicked disarray, from the rooftop of the American Embassy.

Just recently, Gen Petaues, who puts on a show of independence but in reality is the lapdog of Cheney/Bush, spoke of significant "progress" in Iraq.

His flack, Admiral Smith, said of the Sadrist Mahdi Army: "We've degraded their capability."

And then, the Green Zone started taking incoming, from that "degraded" Mahdi Army.

Gen and Adm, because for a while you do not see those who despise you because you invaded their country, does not mean they are "degraded."

And: in 1971, Nixon wanted to show America and the world that "Vietnamization" was working. (We are now doing the same, training the Iraqi army to "fight terrorists.")

So he ordered our puppet govt in Saigon to send these very well equipped soldiers into Laos, to root out the storng "communist" presence there.

They fled in a panic, hanging on to the copter wheels. The poorly armed but highly motivated guerillas easily beat the unwilling heroes of the American Empire,

Just like the American-trained Iraqi army units fled in panic in Basra, when confronted by the Shia militias, dedidcated followers of al Sadr.

The lie coming out of Washington is that the puppet Iraq "government" acted on it own in invading Basra. Right, With American trainers attached to each unit, and US air power in support of the ground troops . . .

Basra is a big oil port. The US may have wanted it to grab control of that vital and expensive commodity, as well as the theives who run the puppet govt.

"History Always Repeats Itself: the First Time as Tragedy, the Second as Farce."

Not likely, tho, tht many Americans will have a smile on their face after this tragic farce is finished playing itself out. Except of course the neocon traitors, and the wealthy friends of Cheney, laughing on the way to the bank.

[capitalist pig]

58,000 + US troops killed in Nam, over a 10 year period.

3000+ US troops in Iraq over a 5 year period.

I really dont think that is a worthy comparison,JMO.

later

[ritehook]

Amazing it is to me, that with over a two/thirds of adult Americans beleiving we have to vacate Iraq, that McCain is now even in the polls with both surviving Democrats.

I more and more believe that the gods who favored us with the Bill of Rights and great personal freedom on the one hand, with their other hand slippped us some very nasty Stupid Pills, which make us dumb and happy at the most inopportune times.

[ritehook]

58,000 + US troops killed in Nam, over a 10 year period.

3000+ US troops in Iraq over a 5 year period.

I really dont think that is a worthy comparison,JMO.

later

One stupid bettor loses $10,000 over a five year period.

The other stupid bettor loses $100,000 over the same time.

Both are stupid. It just a matter of numbers.

BTW, the death toll in Iraq is over 4000 now, and again rising fast, even with the hoaxy "surge."

[BigOrangeTitans]

Cpig, you are wrong, and if you see the advance in technology/enemies killed/total troops involved you'll see the death toll numbers cant be used to decide this.

I've done 2 tours there, and hook you are 100% correct. The iraqi army is worthless. Those guys as basically on welfare, as we recruit poor/uneducated citizens that most times refuse to participate in the heavy firefights. We were holed up for 7 hours waiting on the "iraqi army" to give us reinforcements. Needless to say, we tucked our tails between our legs and evacuated as the reinforcements requested refused to go.

All of the guys there have a morale level as low as it can be. Everyday you hear about one of your buds gettin killed/injured/fukked with and does nothing but make us do inhumane things to innocents as most times, we couldn't identify our enemy.

This war is bullshit, and I am thankful I'm not going back.

[capitalist pig]

Amazing it is to me, that with over a two/thirds of adult Americans beleiving we have to vacate Iraq, that McCain is now even in the polls with both surviving Democrats.

While I cant be objective on the Iraq war, due to my son having been there twice. I really do believe the democrats will not win in November, I just dont think the general public trusts Obama, or Clinton. The Iraq war may not be popular, but in truth it just hasnt touched enough of the general populations lifes to swing the vote in November to the dems. McCain is the lesser percieved evil of the three, JMO.

later

[capitalist pig]

Cpig, you are wrong, and if you see the advance in technology/enemies killed/total troops involved you'll see the death toll numbers cant be used to decide this.

I've done 2 tours there, and hook you are 100% correct. The iraqi army is worthless. Those guys as basically on welfare, as we recruit poor/uneducated citizens that most times refuse to participate in the heavy firefights. We were holed up for 7 hours waiting on the "iraqi army" to give us reinforcements. Needless to say, we tucked our tails between our legs and evacuated as the reinforcements requested refused to go.

All of the guys there have a morale level as low as it can be. Everyday you hear about one of your buds gettin killed/injured/fukked with and does nothing but make us do inhumane things to innocents as most times, we couldn't identify our enemy.

This war is bullshit, and I am thankful I'm not going back.

My point has nothing to do with winning or the Iraq army. My point is you cant compare 58,000 dead to 4,000 dead. If we had lost 58,000 troops in Iraq, youd see people rioting in the streets like back in the late 60s early 70s, it just hasnt effected the same amount of folks here at home like the Viet Nam war did, again JMO.

later

[Robyn]

Amazing it is to me, that with over a two/thirds of adult Americans beleiving we have to vacate Iraq, that McCain is now even in the polls with both surviving Democrats.

I'm not certain that it is McCain they want....I think it's the fact that they don't want Obama or Clinton. Is that the best the Democrats can do?

I think that all three choices are terrible. I will not waste a vote on either party.

[ritehook]

Cpig, you are wrong, and if you see the advance in technology/enemies killed/total troops involved you'll see the death toll numbers cant be used to decide this.

I've done 2 tours there, and hook you are 100% correct. The iraqi army is worthless. Those guys as basically on welfare, as we recruit poor/uneducated citizens that most times refuse to participate in the heavy firefights. We were holed up for 7 hours waiting on the "iraqi army" to give us reinforcements. Needless to say, we tucked our tails between our legs and evacuated as the reinforcements requested refused to go.

All of the guys there have a morale level as low as it can be. Everyday you hear about one of your buds gettin killed/injured/fukked with and does nothing but make us do inhumane things to innocents as most times, we couldn't identify our enemy.

This war is bullshit, and I am thankful I'm not going back.

Many thanks for your contribution - most valuable from one who was on the scene.

Bush and his flacks always want to portray the serving soldiers there as 100% and four-square behind the push to bring "democracy" to Iraq. And we can't let them down by "cutting and running."

Yet the few polls that were taken over the last four five years, of both enlisted men in Iraq and officers there and elsewhere, is that we should be outta there.

So, soldiers and civilians concur. But the elites in the executive branch and the ensconced armpits of neoconism have a different idea. And, somehow, they hold all the cards.

[ritehook]

Always liked the old verse, author unknown (at least to me)

THE YOUNG MEN DIE IN BATTLE -
THE OLD MEN SLEEP IN BED.
THE TORTURED EARTH OF MANKIND
IS FURROWED DEEP IN RED.

THE OLD MEN SIT CONFERRING
WITH SMILE AND SCHEME AND LIE -
AND SO THE OLD MEN BLUNDER,
AND SO THE YOUNG MEN DIE.

[Kerfuffle]

58,000 + US troops killed in Nam, over a 10 year period.

3000+ US troops in Iraq over a 5 year period.

I really dont think that is a worthy comparison,JMO.

later

In addition, there was a military draft in the 1960's. All those in Iraq entered their recruitment into the military voluntarilly.

Also, there was no single event leading up to the Viet Nam war that could be pointed to as the reason for being there. The events of 9/11 will forever be implanted in American's minds and can be brought back into their minds instantly if temporarily forgotten.

[Scorpion]

BTW, the death toll in Iraq is over 4000 now, and again rising fast, even with the hoaxy "surge."

And how many return home with serious injuries, no hand, no leg, I think almost 30000, or mental problems,...

[Robyn]

I think one thing people fail to remember is that wars of the past incorporated a lot of man on man combat. Wars of the present rely on a great majority of technology. This is a big reason why the death toll isn't higher than it probably should be.

[ritehook]

In addition, there was a military draft in the 1960's. All those in Iraq entered their recruitment into the military voluntarilly.

Also, there was no single event leading up to the Viet Nam war that could be pointed to as the reason for being there. The events of 9/11 will forever be implanted in American's minds and can be brought back into their minds instantly if temporarily forgotten.

Actually, there was the so-called Tonkin Gulf attack, which impelled the US to dramatically up the ante in Vietnam, and send tens of thousands of US soldiers to meet their end there.

Now, predictably, we know that the Tonkin Gulf incident was a sham, a faked incident,used by LBJ and his warmongering Ivy Leaguers to go fullscale into Vietnam.

No, 911 was not a hoax (tho there are posters here who will disagree). But pinning the blame on Iraq was likely the most venal hoax in US history, engineered by the hard-driving neocons, in service to a country that is not the USA.

[thegreatdiatchi]

I wouldn't say Iraq is Vietnam. I'd say this is more of a Financial War than anything.

As for the election. No matter who we elect we are basically screwed. The only way things would change is if someone like Jello Biafra is elected. Sadly we need major change but it's not going to happen with this party system.

[capitalist pig]

Also, there was no single event leading up to the Viet Nam war that could be pointed to as the reason for being there. The events of 9/11 will forever be implanted in American's minds and can be brought back into their minds instantly if temporarily forgotten.

Sure there is, there was a democrate as president is why we ended up in Nam. Kennedy started it wanting to try out his new Green Berets, then Johnson escalated it to 500,000 troops in country. Then it took a republican Nixon, to get us out.

later

[Kerfuffle]

Also, to keep things in perspective, more than 200,000 Amricans have died, and hundreds of thousands more injured severely or disfigured, on the roads of America over the past 5 years at the hands of other drivers, while 4,000 were dying in Iraq.

When I also see you starting posts urging Americans to drive more safely, then I'll know you have death in perspective

[cobra_king]

CP is correct that if 58,000 troops had died in Iraq there would be protests galore in the street, how ever i don't think you can compare the total number of deaths in the two wars. The reason being is that because of improvements to body armour, and field medicine there are far more men wounded now who would have died in Vietnam. The combat death to wounded ratio in Vietnam was approximately 1 was death to 2.2 wounded whereas in Iraq it is around 1 to 15. Far more troops returning home disabled who would have died in Vietnam.

[ritehook]

I think one thing people fail to remember is that wars of the past incorporated a lot of man on man combat. Wars of the present rely on a great majority of technology. This is a big reason why the death toll isn't higher than it probably should be.

If the death toll is lower than it may have been in earlier times, I don't think it's due to advances in technology, but rather to advances in battlefield medicine.

Your technology point would likely be argued by those who died in the firestorm created by the massive carpet bombing of the open and unfortified city of Dresden in 1945. Nor of the victims of the atom boms in the same year, in Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

I don't recall how many soldiers died in some of history's decisive battles, like Hastings in 1066, Tours, even our own Revolutionary War. But I'd bet, even with poor or non-existent battlefield medical care, it was still a lot lower than died on say, Iwo Jima in WWII. Or Pork Chop Hill in Korea.

Nice to see you on a polit thread, tho. Not just another pretty face . . .

[Robyn]

Kerfuffle, that's just silly. War isn't a way of life for Americans. Driving is.

[ritehook]

CP is correct that if 58,000 troops had died in Iraq there would be protests galore in the street, how ever i don't think you can compare the total number of deaths in the two wars. The reason being is that because of improvements to body armour there are far more men wounded now who would have died in Vietnam. The combat death to wounded ratio in Vietnam was approximately 1 was death to 2.2 wounded whereas in Iraq it is around 1 to 15. Far more troops returning home disabled who would have died in Vietnam.

Correct.
I'd mde my reply to Robyn before reading your post.

The battlefield surgery is amazing now. But it does mean that a lot more soliders are maimed for life, both physically and psychologically. We are, of course, committed to providing them lifetime care, but this is another big added cost to an already ecomincally devasting conflict.

[Robyn]

If the death toll is lower than it may have been in earlier times, I don't think it's due to advances in technology, but rather to advances in battlefield medicine..

Advanced medicine and body armor (as cobra king pointed out) are all thanks to modern technology. I wasn't indicating that soldiers aren't on the battlefield due to ballistic missiles controlled by pressing a button from a remote location or anything.

Your technology point would likely be argued by those who died in the firestorm created by the massive carpet bombing of the open and unfortified city of Dresden in 1945. Nor of the victims of the atom boms in the same year, in Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

I don't recall how many soldiers died in some of history's decisive battles, like Hastings in 1066, Tours, even our own Revolutionary War. But I'd bet, even with poor or non-existent battlefield medical care, it was still a lot lower than died on say, Iwo Jima in WWII. Or Pork Chop Hill in Korea...

I was referring to the fact that wars are no longer fought by two lines running directly at each other with a weapon in hand, don't be silly.

Nice to see you on a polit thread, tho. Not just another pretty face . . .

Well gee, thank you for recognizing me. Whenever I post in these types of threads, I am usually ignored like an albino leading up to prom week.

[ritehook]

Advanced medicine and body armor (as cobra king pointed out) are all thanks to modern technology. I wasn't indicating that soldiers aren't on the battlefield due to ballistic missiles controlled by pressing a button from a remote location or anything.



I was referring to the fact that wars are no longer fought by two lines running directly at each other with a weapon in hand, don't be silly.



Well gee, thank you for recognizing me. Whenever I post in these types of threads, I am usually ignored like an albino leading up to prom week.

Not at all. You make intelligent points.

Just hope you're not planning to kill those at the Bash who disagree with you . . .

[Robyn]

I like it when people disagree with me because I usually learn something from them. People feel the way they do for a reason and I am always interested in hearing the opinions of others.

[ritehook]

I actually cribbed most of the material I stated in my OP.

From a guy named Hallinan, whose much more articulate essay on Iraq/Vietnam appeared in an article titled: BASRA; ECHOES OF VIETNAM.

Online in several places.

[jjgold]

We should of let Iraq stay as it was before, everyone was happier

Sadaam should never of been touched, he never bothered anyone on American soil.

[cobra_king]

I like it when people disagree with me because I usually learn something from them. People feel the way they do for a reason and I am always interested in hearing the opinions of others.

Now there's a novel concept!

Be careful now, thinking like this will get you ostracized from SBR!

[ritehook]

I like it when people disagree with me because I usually learn something from them. People feel the way they do for a reason and I am always interested in hearing the opinions of others.

Righto.

And - opinions are like noses, eveyone has one. Some have more than one. Opinions.Not noses.

I gotta go,so will leave this thread in your care. And just as one of your friends did a youtube, you should express one of your well-thought out views in an orginal post.

I'll be back late tonite to comment on it.

[ritehook]

Ah, an OP dealing with war or politics.

Not sex.

Tho they often overlap.

[Robyn]

Oh, but Saddam was an evil tyrant, JJ!

But the individuals (leaders) mass murdering people in Africa....well, they aren't. Because Africans are useless to Americans and their earth is not rich with oil. Right?

I think it's time to move to Canada.

[ritehook]

We should of let Iraq stay as it was before, everyone was happier

Sadaam should never of been touched, he never bothered anyone on American soil.

You are, of course, correct in that "political handicap", coach.

You should make a video of it. It won't be your most popular, but may turn out to have the longest legs, if done with your usual dramatic genius.

[DrunkenLullaby]

Also, there was no single event leading up to the Viet Nam war that could be pointed to as the reason for being there. The events of 9/11 will forever be implanted in American's minds and can be brought back into their minds instantly if temporarily forgotten.

So, are you one of the masses that have been brainwashed into thinking Iraq had something, anything to do with 9/11?

Or are you saying that our current puppetmasters will continue brainwashing the ignorant masses with that lie?

Hopefully the latter.

[ShamsWoof10]

58,000 + US troops killed in Nam, over a 10 year period.

3000+ US troops in Iraq over a 5 year period.

I really dont think that is a worthy comparison,JMO.

later

If you believe this then I have a surfing vacation package in Antartica to sell you...

I remember watching the beginning of the war on channels ranging from MSNBC, CNN, CNNInternational to Al Manar (one of the best) Kwuatti News, LBC Lebanon mostly MSNBC... The American media such as MSNBC would have a daily count and everytime they would show an incident like a helicopter crashing they would update the number dead...

Well I decided to keep track to see how good their math was... If on Monday they said the count was 114 then I would add the number of dead with each incident THEY REPORT and add it to the total... Either they don't know how to add or they are blanting not telling the truth because by the end of each week my total was always higher...

Remember the photos of the coffins with American Flags on them that got out in late 04'..? That was also another indication they were not telling the truth about the actual dead because that looked liked a SH*T load of coffins which was only for deaths from the last couple days...

Don't get me wrong C_P.... I do NOT support the idea of troops no matter from what country however I do support the idea of a father and his son being together that's why I am still glad to hear your son is coming back healthy and hopefully happy...

There is one more thing from that time I found interesting... There was an MSNBC news report about a HumV... I had seen this report and they were repeating it... I asked my friend to pay close attention to the report and tell me if anything was odd about it.. He said no... The report was that a HumV drove over an explosive device that threw it 30 feet in the air and it came down and landed on it's side... NO DEATHS OR INJUIRES WERE REPORTED!!! If no one was inquired from that those are some bad mother f*ckers and I highly doubt that is the case...

[thezbar]

On my top five list of "Serial Killers" the U.S. government ranks right near the top.

[robzilla]

no one even talks about the monitary cost of this. I brought it up to a republican one time and they said that the GDP for the US would more than cover the cost of the war... but the GDP isnt 100% profit.