Andre Dawson should be in the HoF, yes or no?

[Doc JS]

I quit caring who the BBWAA elects to be enshrined at Cooperstown a long time ago. I've got my own Hall of Fame, and as everyone already knows, my Hall of Fame is spot on and absolutely correct.

The fact that members of the BBWAA didn't support the inclusion of players such as Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays and Bob Gibson should tell you all you need to know about the BBWAA.

Somebody get Willie a soap box!

[matskralc]

Good player, yes. Great player, no.

"

[frankiecheese]

Yes

My favorite player of all time. One of the best 5 tool players ever. Member of the 300-300 club, 300-300-2000 club. One of 3 members of the 400-300 club, other 2 members are Willie Mays and BArry Bonds. Not bad company there. MVP in 1987. RoY in 77. I feel he should already be in.

He should be in the Hall of Fame; just think - he put those numbers up in the non steroid era.

[thegreatdiatchi]

He should be in the Hall of Fame; just think - he put those numbers up in the non steroid era.

We don't know whether or not players were on the juice then. Sadly I don't think juice can be used as a fair factor for evaluation into the HOF because i think the majority of stars used it.

Dawson, Murphy, Rice, McGuire, & Clemens should all be entered into the HOF. There are some great older guys as well who I think should be enshrined (Maris, Pete Rose).

[purecarnagge]

he is not a HOF...just cuz you hit 300 homers big deal. Also, Dawson dissappeared in big games.

[Kellen]

He did a lot more than hit 300 homers.

[donjuan]

He did a lot more than hit 300 homers.

Are you planning on responding to my post?

[matskralc]

He should be in the Hall of Fame; just think - he put those numbers up in the non steroid era.

Dawson played in the '50s?

[NEP Dynasty]

Kellen,

I won't get off topic in your thread again. That said, I could poke a million holes in the Andre Dawson for HOF argument, but I think Firejoemorgan does a decent enough job while being thoroughly entertaining as well. Feel free to respond to points made there.

Just a reminder: using stats like batting average, total hits, RBI, runs, MVPs and Gold Gloves will cause a delayed response by me due to torn stomach muscles from laughing so hard.

Are you trying to say stats like batting average, hits, RBIs, runs aren't good indicators of who should/should not be in the Hall of Fame? Wow......

[Kellen]

What are we supposed to go by if thats the case? DonJuan?

[jjgold]

Dawson did not have enough big years to get in hall, a great player though.

[donjuan]

Um, maybe, just maybe stats that actually measure productivity like OPS(+), EqA and OBP.

[NEP Dynasty]

RBIs dont measure productivity. You got me.

[donjuan]

RBIs dont measure productivity. You got me.

I'm going to pretend, for one minute, that you didn't just say that.





OK, minute over. RBIs measure productivity more than, say, number of times the player blinks during an at bat. They don't come close to the stats I listed because they rely on the player's teammates. Play on a crappy team with no one ever on base, you'll have few RBIs. Play on an amazing team with people on base frequently and you'll have a ton of RBIs, regardless of how good at hitting you actually are. Do you see the problem with RBIs (and runs scored)?

[donjuan]

Next up: shocking revelations that wins aren't a good measure of pitching performance!

[babaoriley]

Next up: shocking revelations that wins aren't a good measure of pitching performance!

And yet, 300 wins is automatic induction into the HOF. I think you're missing the point here, don.

[donjuan]

And yet, 300 wins is automatic induction into the HOF. I think you're missing the point here, don.

I doubt too many people would ever accuse the members of the BBWAA of actually using a coherent process to come up with their selections.

What, exactly is the point? That most mainstream sports writers are complete morons?

[babaoriley]

I doubt too many people would ever accuse the members of the BBWAA of actually using a coherent process to come up with their selections.

What, exactly is the point? That most mainstream sports writers are complete morons?

All things aside, the HOF should provide a snapshot/scrapbook of baseball, decade-by-decade, era-by-era, in an attempt to frame the game's high points and the players that have defined the sport throughout each era/decade. Now, that said, I can't imagine taking my son to the HOF and trying to explain how Gary Carter is in the HOF, yet Murph and Dawson are not. Likewise, when this current group of pumped up freaks gets elected, I think the HOF will further erode into a meaningless facade, not a portrait of the game and a tribute to its history.

[donjuan]

All things aside, the HOF should provide a snapshot/scrapbook of baseball, decade-by-decade, era-by-era, in an attempt to frame the game's high points and the players that have defined the sport throughout each era/decade. Now, that said, I can't imagine taking my son to the HOF and trying to explain how Gary Carter is in the HOF, yet Murph and Dawson are not. Likewise, when this current group of pumped up freaks gets elected, I think the HOF will further erode into a meaningless facade, not a portrait of the game and a tribute to its history.

So it should be about the best players from each era but this era somehow doesn't belong?

[NEP Dynasty]

Don, should Babe Ruth be in the HOF? What is his WARP3

[donjuan]

Um, yes. Ruth's WARP3 was 218. Was that supposed to be some kind of trick?

[Bluehorseshoe]

One thing you have to respect about Dawson, more than anything is, he did what he did on two destroyed knees. The artificial turf in Montreal completely ruined him from putting up bigger numbers. He'd have to go to the stadium hours before the game started just to get his legs worked on.

It's part of the reason why he joined the Cubs. So he could play on natural grass on a regular basis.

[donjuan]

I respect him for that, but it shouldn't be a criterion for the HOF.

[donjuan]

Two more quick things.

1. When I say on field accomplishments, I do leave room for someone like Jackie Robinson, who impacts the game so greatly that he belongs regardless of actual baseball merit. He also belongs on merit anyway.

2. Let's play a game called name that player:

Player 1: 133 OPS+, .379 OBP, .304 EqA, 103 WARP3
Player 2: 119 OPS+, .323 OBP, .283 EqA, 101.7 WARP3
Player 3: 121 OPS+, .346 OBP, .285 EqA, 82.2 WARP3

If your guess for player 1 was Jim Edmonds, you win. Now does anyone think Jim Edmonds belongs in the HOF?

[stump]

close but i can't put him in

[babaoriley]

So it should be about the best players from each era but this era somehow doesn't belong?

This era is marked by inflated numbers due to a) juiced players, b) juiced balls, c) smaller strike zone... Yes, I believe this era should have a wing in the HOF though it will be the laughingstock of Cooperstown. Game used syringes should replace bats. Before/after pictures of Bonds would be a riot... They could make the 90's-2010 a virtual circus.

[Kellen]

baba, what are your thoughts on McGwire? I say absolutely not. All he did was hit homers and we all know how he did that. But there are a lot of people who think he should be in.

Also, John Smoltz, obvious first ballot HOFer. How about Chipper, no doubt he gets in first ballot?

[donjuan]

This era is marked by inflated numbers due to a) juiced players, b) juiced balls, c) smaller strike zone...

As stated in the Murphy thread, numbers like OPS+ and EqA adjusted for all-time adjust for ballpark and era factors.

[babaoriley]

Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine, Chipper---All Absolutely yes. That said, as a lifelong Braves fan, none of them represented the face of the franchise of the Braves as much as Murph. That has to mean something. Sometimes there's more than just numbers.

As for McGwire... I'll say this, can you imagine McGwire's plaque being next to Griffey Jr.'s? Same era, right? But oh, so different.

[donjuan]

baba, what are your thoughts on McGwire? I say absolutely not. All he did was hit homers and we all know how he did that. But there are a lot of people who think he should be in.

On stats alone? Of course. You could definitely make a case about the roids, though.

[babaoriley]

As stated in the Murphy thread, numbers like OPS+ and EqA adjusted for all-time adjust for ballpark and era factors.

And yet, I don't put total faith in their accuracy or overall importance. Not sure why, but I don't.

EDIT: View it similar to Hollinger's PER having Carl Landry rated above Carlos Boozer.

[donjuan]

That said, as a lifelong Braves fan, none of them represented the face of the franchise of the Braves as much as Murph. That has to mean something. Sometimes there's more than just numbers.

Looks like Aaron Rowand is set to be the face of the Giants for the next 5 years. Surely that has to count for something wrt HOF balloting!

[donjuan]

And yet, I don't put total faith in their accuracy or overall importance. Not sure why, but I don't.

EDIT: View it similar to Hollinger's PER having Carl Landry rated above Carlos Boozer.

Hollinger is kind of a retard. His playoff odds model had the Celtics and Pistons winning the NBA title over 80% of the time earlier this year. There's a big difference between Hollinger and Bill James.

[purecarnagge]

stat nerds please listen up.

You say the name... then you think HOF or not?

If you pause for even a second then he's not a HOF.

I paused he's not a HOF... I mean if you went in and said Brett Farve is he a HOF, I'd say yes instantly... with Dawson its like well... Well that doesn't cut it.

[donjuan]

stat nerds please listen up.

You say the name... then you think HOF or not?

If you pause for even a second then he's not a HOF.

I paused he's not a HOF... I mean if you went in and said Brett Farve is he a HOF, I'd say yes instantly... with Dawson its like well... Well that doesn't cut it.

Ah the vaunted Purecarnagge Gut Feel Test. Dawson has a GFF+ (Gut Feel Factor adjusted for daily McDonald's consumption) of 22.3. Unfortunately for Dawson, the cut off is an arbitrary 25.4. Better luck next life, Andre.